You see, THIS is why life is so difficult for 'Conspiracy Theorists'...

... because we are dealing with a COMPLETELY uneducated public. How can you even begin to have a meaningful discussion with ANYone about a controversial topic, when they don't even grasp the [known] historical & scientific, basic, realities behind the last (greatest?) remaining wonder of the ancient world?

Here is a simple poll I sent to 3 of my co-workers, followed by their responses:

ME:

Quick poll: in two sentences or less, tell me what you know about the Great Pyramid or just the Pyramids of Giza, in general - just start typing, no Googling or other internet searches.

__________

Friend 1:

They are in Giza. They are pyramids. Hehe. Great kings of Egypt were buried in them, along with their wives and slaves to prepare them for their trip to the next life.

Friend 2:

Pyarminds of Giza are in Egypt. Great Pyarmid I would guess is in the same place and is tomb of Alexander the Great. Also these were referenced in the The Mummy, Jumper.

Friend 3:

~12000 years old?? built with a high degree of precision and is resting place for many pharohs....idk. that is about it.

So, right there, we're 0 for 3 for people understanding the very BASICS, of one of the most magnificent - and SIGnificant - structures on the planet. [we'll give friend 3 a little credit, there]


Sometime earlier, I took another quick poll of 3 other of my closest/successful friends. All college educated. Each has advanced to high levels in their respective fields (HR, banking, manufacturing) - aged 34-40.

example 1 (U.S.): 2 think Freemasonry is CT (only), and don't realize our entire country was founded it & built by the Masons. 1 had only 'heard the term' before.

example 2 (World): ALL thought that King Tut's remains were removed from a (The Great) Pyrimid. [No sarcophagus or human remains have ever been removed from one of them - Pharoah's were typically placed in the Valley of the Kings]

No one knows ANYthing, anymore.


And, we're the 'Whackjobs'! Makes me want to effing puke!

reply to post by SquirrelNutz


Dear SquirrelNutz

Yes we the ATS people are all nut jobs.

I go to a bar full of people and sit in a corner drinking coffee reading a book. If you don’t know about football there is no chance of conversation.

Why should we care??? They are happy the world changes around them they live they die and no one notices or is that us??

reply to post by SquirrelNutz


I guess that Ignorance is Bliss to some , and Arrogance is their Bedfellow......To Not want to Seek out Knowledge is a Sad thing , it takes away ones Purpose and Meaning in Life .

Do you know specific details about every ancient and significant thing?

How old is the Great Wall of China, and what Dynasty was it built under?

Which group's ruins are in Tulum?

Is Kenya North or South of the equator?

I think you're making a big, very judgmental statement based on a really specific set of information.

Just to play along, I'm a few months from a Master's degree, Have been a professional, and fall in the older age range like your friends. I consider myself a "conspiracist" and believe the original story of 9/11 is a total sham.

I think the pyramids of Giza and the Great Pyramid have something to do with ancient space navigation, probably to do with Orion constellation. The paths within the pyramids lead to an inner room that at one time lined up with certain significant stars for the time they were built. The rooms have exceptional properties of resonance and increased energy and hearing. A few other things but I'm tired of typing =p

That's great. Good point. I usually have a headache from absorbing so much knowledge here in a day. Curious minds want to know. My friends complain about all the web pages I have them save, too many to look at.

reply to post by Thermo Klein

Do you know specific details about every ancient and significant thing?

How old is the Great Wall of China, and what Dynasty was it built under?

Which group's ruins are in Tulum?

Is Kenya North or South of the equator?

I think you're making a big, very judgmental statement based on a really specific set of information.

A very fair argument. [And * for it] BUT... my point is, if I put forth a statement about a subject that even slightly disagrees with your previous knowledge on the matter, then it is *I* who am made to feel like an idiot, when it is your knowledge base that is weak from the off-shoot - see where I'm going?

I am by no means suggesting that every person I run into, know EVERYthing (or even the basics) about EVERY subject or historical landmark/event (as you so eloquently pointed out), but what I DO expect, is to be taken seriously - or at least not made fun of - when it is obvious your exposure to the topic at hand is wrong, or minimal to say the least.

Furthermore...

Just to play along, I'm a few months from a Master's degree, Have been a professional, and fall in the older age range like your friends. I consider myself a "conspiracist" and believe the original story of 9/11 is a total sham.

I think the pyramids of Giza and the Great Pyramid have something to do with ancient space navigation, probably to do with Orion constellation. The paths within the pyramids lead to an inner room that at one time lined up with certain significant stars for the time they were built. The rooms have exceptional properties of resonance and increased energy and hearing. A few other things but I'm tired of typing =p

And, I believe these things, as well. You know why? Because we are intelligent and curious, and WE took the time to delve a little deeper into the subject matter. Yet, you and I will both be ridiculed by those who haven't even taken the time to understand the very BASICS of each subject. Does that seem fair?

Make sense?





[edit on 2/4/2010 by SquirrelNutz]

No one knows ANYthing, anymore

I like your analysis and agree to certain point. However you are assuming that if I see a piramid of Giza conspiracy thread I'll click on it and give my opinion. That's where you are wrong, I am completely uneducated about ancient history so I'll just ignore the thread, and I think that most people who know nothing of the piramids will simply stay away.

Instead, beign an engineer, I usually focus on science and tech forums. The basic problem I see there is that people know the theory, but cannot apply it.

Take for instance faster than light travel. You can ask any person who frequents that forum what the second postulate says and they will likely tell you that light, in our reference frame, will always travel at 'c'. However if after that you ask them what you would see if you were to leave earth at a faster than light speed, they will probably tell you that you would see yourself leaving earth, completely ignoring the second postulate. They fall in the same trap when trying to envision perpetual motion/free energy devices or most other conspiracy theories involving sci/tech. Can I ask if this same problem happens in all other sub-forums?

What could be the cause? IMO its cheating. Back in my college days, there would be this group of people, who happened to know someone who knew a teaching assistant, and this TA usually gave old exams to those people for them to 'study'. Since they knew what the exam questions were likely to be they simply memorized the answers. If they were lucky enough, the exam questions would be the same and they would ace it. Then they get out of college with a degree and a 3.9 GPA but fail to apply what they learned.

I think ATS is flodded with cheaters, they think reading an article in wikipedia or any other source in the web for half an hour is enough, and after that they think they are experts. There is a reason why university physics III is a 6 month course and not a half an hour one time class(in case you are wondering, physics III in my school taught 3 topics: thermodynamics, optics, and relativity. That's 2 months for a single topic, and there are other 6 months courses for each of those topics in case one needed to have more details). But at least, for every 100 wannabes there is at least one very well educated person from whom I may actually learn something new, and that keeps me from leaving ATS.


[edit on 4-2-2010 by daniel_g]

reply to post by SquirrelNutz


Makes good sense - I see what you mean.

reply to post by SquirrelNutz


People that are not happy with being ignorant, usually flow to places like this SN. We are different. That is about it.

There are two general people in my view, people that want and crave information and those who don't.

I do not know how to explain it further.

Now the ones that do not crave the info, will still bitch about things, but do nothing except that.

Information and education is directly proportional to the advancement of a society. Idiocy comes to mind.

S&F for the grumpiness factor-

Grumpy people are more advanced on the evolutionary scale!


[edit on 2/4/2010 by endisnighe]

Try quizzing those same three on say, geology, or history, and I bet they will also know nothing. But check out how many sports stats or celebrity birthday/weddings they know by heart. It's sad. People are brainwashed by the govt. If you have the ability to memorize all those stats, you certainly have the ability to learn something USEFUL, if you weren't entirely STUFFING your brain with the sports stats, or celebrity gossip.

www.findingdulcinea.com...

My older brother is a high ranking guy in local politics.

Over christmas , I swung the conversation slowly , towards the global
politics and current Middle east happenings.

I freaked him a little about how much he didn't know, but got to say , garnered

a lot of respect for how much I did know.


(I would never touch 911 topic, my family is not ready for the truth.)

reply to post by SquirrelNutz


It is beyond doubt that lobbies and oligarchs create damage and perpetuate the decline of a system, but it is a mistake to assign to them a shadowy role of controlling it or creating it, because one will be then fighting the lobby or oligarch -- which is one of many such entities -- and not focusing on fixing the system itself. Conspiracy thinking engenders a negative psychology of paranoia and symbolic thinking instead of directing the user toward a realism in which the social design is corrupt and can be fixed, and that fix will in itself eliminate the power of all lobbies and oligarchs, actually resolving the problem.Conspiracy thinking is not only illogical, but it is a shallow psychological justification for inaction.

It is a great chasm we fill, whence we set out to fill the breaches in the walls of political biases, and mediate between the hardened positions of religions!

We're all ignorant, just about different topics. You'll get the 1000 yard stare from most people when you bring up ATS-like topics because they have no interest. And they have no interest because they see no value in devoting time to things which have no definitive answer.

I can't really fault that. I'd probably have an area or two in my life which would be improved by focusing more time on things that have a likelihood of tangible payback.

You can't mess with someone's reality without getting nudged back. This is why I like ATS. It affords an opportunity to discuss some out-there things with people who also have an interest.

And yes there's some nudging here too, but at least here the anonymity affords us some shielding from all but the virtual disdain.

reply to post by SquirrelNutz


Coming from the poster who gums up 2012 threads with absolutely no evidence, just conjecture. Hilariously hypocritical I'd say it's difficult for conspiracy theorists as most folks who call themselves conspiracy theorists are merely paranoiacs with over-active imaginations.

People being aware of their ignorance is a lot better than people not being aware of it. At least the former group can learn.

Ignorance is comfortable for a lot of folks. Learning challenges you to take a real close look at what you believe, redefine that belief, and change your perception on life. That can be a very painful and painstaking progress.

Far easier to go to the movies, play Nintendo, and veg out in front of the television.

Next time you poll your co-workers, try to engage their interest. Don't say "tell me everything you know about mirror neurons" but ask something like "Do you know why its impossible to watch a baby laugh without smiling yourself?" Perhaps it will peak their interest enough that they begin the process of educating themselves.

Originally posted by davesidious
most folks who call themselves conspiracy theorists are merely paranoiacs with over-active imaginations.

Is that conjecture, or do you have hard data to support it?

reply to post by MrDesolate


Most who subscribe to conspiracy thinking do so from the following psychological pragma: because X group is in control, and X group can never be beaten, there is nothing I can do of substance, therefore I will grumble and groan but I will not take practical action, because if I do so, X group will eliminate me.

It is a form of scapegoating, where we identify a conscious evil entity instead of the actual enemy, which is a system design that institutes radical evil, or the mundane form of accepted ways of doing things that produces negative results by its lack of realism.

When I joined this web site many, many years ago.....it was a much different place. Most of the forums were related to paranormal studies, UFOs, and the exposure of classified government projects. There was very little in the was of discussions having to do with politics, religion, and so forth. Posters took their time in crafting well-worded essays on a particular subjects, and (usually) intelligent, well-behaved debate soon followed.

Most of the *fringe* element was restricted to the UFO sections, which many of us simply avoided, or read through with mild amusement. Now, it seems like those old UFO threads were scholarly discussions compared to what is proffered on a regular basis in most threads. No one wants to craft a fine argument, no one can contain their rhetoric, hardly anyone presents evidence from reputable, well established sources. Conspiracy Theorists are labeled as "nut jobs" while Debunkers are labeled as "brain-washed sheeple". It's really quite sickening, and hopefully not a representation as to where our society has gone in the last 10 years. Don't even get me started on the racism and bigotry that has crept into this web site over the years.......seeming with the tacit approval of the owners and administrators.

I believe that each and every thread needs to start with the concept of "Occam's Razor". Occam's Razor states that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity", or in other words, do not over-complicate things which are basically simple. A modern reading of OR is that "the simplest explanation is usually the correct explanation".

I wish posters would start from this position, and slowly move away from the simplest explanation, bit by bit, arguing their rationale as they go. Too many times people simply blurt out their beliefs and claims, with nothing to back them up. People on ATS should strive to be the voice of reason amidst the howling mob.............

P

It really matters not that people don't know much about the great pyramids. Just as soon as we accept a fact about them it becomes a myth. Our knowledge about the pyramids changes daily. I was laughed at 20 years ago when I stated that I thought the pyramids were most likely covered with stucco or a finish stone, and now it is a proven fact.