Originally posted by divinetragedy79
This is a question that has nagged at me as well.

I am sure you are familiar with the 3 Wise Men. But let me ask you this question. Are you familiar with the tradition of celebrating the day of the 3 Wise Men on Jan. 6 (I believe)? Now, if they (the 3 Wise Men) presented their gifts to Jesus on Dec. 25, then why are they celebrated on Jan. 6?

It's a tradition that my family has always followed, but I never got an answer for my question.

That's because the "Three Wise Men" were not actual men...they were points in the constellation, known as ORION'S BELT

People are always trying to "mythologize" Bible, but it stands aloof of all of them when the sciences are applied to it.

The Magid were a long tradition of Babylonian Astrologists in Zoroastrianism and they were real men, the time it took to get from Akkad to Jerusalem is true to the Post Captivity reports of Ezra and Nehemiah, and they work perfectly with the "Star" they reported:

The conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in Pisces predicts from a Babylonian viewpoint "the end of the old world order and the birth of a new King chosen by God."
The triple conjunction is rare, occurring every 800 years. Since 7BC, triple conjunctions were observed in 786 and 1583.

First conjunction: May 27, only early before 5 am in the EAST sky (while in the East)

Second conjunction: October 7, (this one all night being the first day of "Jewish" Tabernacles!) This was His Birth!

Third conjunction: December 1, until just after midnight setting 12:22 am.
It appears the Christmas scene (if in a House with a Child) isn't so far off!



An ancient Babylonian clay tablet dated to 8 BC, which describes the celestial events for then upcoming 13 months. The tablet shows that Jupiter and Saturn would remain together in the constellation of Pisces for eleven months and come in close conjunction three times. Since the Babylonian lunar year begins at the vernal equinox (March/April), the tablet's description refers to the period, March/April 7 BC - March/April 6 BC. :

"Month 10 (Dec.), the first day follows the 29th of the previous month. Jupiter and Saturn in Pisces, Venus in Scorpio, Mars in Aquarius...."

Four copies of such astronomical tablets describing celestial activities in 7 BC are known to have survived. This means that Babylonian astronomers were thoroughly familiar with the movements of the stars and planets, and hand carried tablets either for themselves or to fellow Astrologists.

[edit on 2010/2/4 by YeHUaH ELaHaYNU]

Yehua--

Don't take the birth narratives in the 1st and 3rd canonical Greek gospels (whoever wrote them) as pure history: they are not.

It is clear in the Matthean Birth Narratives (with its magoi ‘from the east’ and its gold, myrrh and frankincense simbology &tc.) is NOT history but HAGGADIC MIDRASH IC EXPANSIONS (Midrash is lengendary ecretions meant to elucidate a prophecy or any verse (or word) in the so-called Hebrew scriptures ‘D-R-SH’ to ‘seek out meaning' i.e. from the Hebrew & AramaicTargum paraphrased translations from various Hebrew Vorlagen) produced what is known as Midrashic Source Material in the Birth Narratives in the 1st and 3rd council approved canonical Greek Gospels (whoever wrote them) that COLOURSAND GUIDES the narratives of these legends (which are NOT to be taken as modern pure ‘history’ - although they do sometimes weave historical personages into the story e.g. Herod the Great, who died in 4 BCE, and whose 70th death-anniversary in 66 CE sparked the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome…)

Interestingly, the Midrashic-Haggaddic Hebrew/Aramaic Source material depict not a passive turn the cheek Christ at all but rather a WARRIOR MESSIAH who ‘shall crush the skulls of the Occupiers’ which 1st century Palestinian Jews would have equated with ‘the Kittim’ (i.e. the Romans) as this Psalm (like many others like it) was often commented upon in the Dead Sea Scroll Pesherim (line by line commentaries) as referring to the 2nd of TWO Promised Messiahs, one Priestly and one Kingly (i.e. the’ Messiah of Aaron’ and the ‘Messiah of Israel’)

Note how Psalms 72 and Trito-Isaiah 60:2-8 ‘colours’ the Matthean brith-narratives with its mention of MEN FROM THE EAST WITH INCENSE AND GOLD &tc. – we are clearly NOT DEALING WITH HISTORY HERE but rather HAGGADIC MIDRASHIC LEGENDS.

See how in later in Christian hymnology we hear ‘We three KINGS of Orient are…’ (the term KINGS is ‘coloured’ i.e. borrowed from Psalm 72, and clearly contradicting Matthew’s versionwhich mentions only Persian ‘wise men’ i.e. Magoi - i.e. astrology priests of Mithras/Mitra = the SAVIOUR- SOLAR DEITY of the Persians and Medeans, who was also ‘BORN’ on DECEMBER 25th (Mithras was significantly also BORN FROM A ROCK CAVE ATTENDED BY SHEPHERDSjust like we see in the contradictory Lucan Birth narrative who knows nothing of Magoi or Kings or presents or stars from the east)

BOTH ‘Matthew’ and ‘Luke’ (whoever they were) BOTH make use of SOLAR MATERIAL when discussing the ‘birth’ of the Messiah—but notice how they both go in opposite directions with very little overlap as to time and place (both use ‘Miryam’ and ‘Yosef’ and a HAGADIC MIDRASH on the Targum of Isaiah 7:14 about the Almah-Parthenos--but other than that the TWO BIRTH NARRATIVES in the Greek Gospels are quite contradictory in the details, even down to the actual geneologies, which do not seem to know for sure who the father of Yosef actually was...could it have been Yakkov or maybe Heli? &tc. ) The only way to see these two contradictory midrashic legendary accounts would be to lay them side by side line by line, then you can spot the differences in the material being presented...if you do not do this, you won't see it clearly).

Here is SOME of the Midrashic Source Material that coloured the Matthean Narrative (the author of the 1st gospel, whoever he was, tends to use a weird and unknown version of the Aramaic Targums of these verses, rather than what later became the LXX or Greek Old Testament (the Septuaginta).

The Dead Sea Scrolls show several Vorlagen (Hebrew 'underlays' to the Greek) which parallel the many different versions of the Greek Old Testament that Origen was later to lay side by side in his HEXAPLA of c. 200CE.

Psalm 72

Endow the King with your Justice, o EL, imbue your Royal Son with your Righteousness !

Long may he live! May his Kingdom shall endure as long as the sun, [his scepter], as long as the moon, even through all generations !

For he will defend the afflicted of the people, &save the sons of the downtroden, he will take pity on the weak &the needy & save the Ebionim (poor ones) from death, and precious shall their blood be in his sight !

Yea, he shall crush [the skulls off] the Occupiers ! The Nomads will bow before him, his Enemies shall lick the dust [of his feet] !

THE KINGS OF TARSHISH AND OF THE ISLES SHALL BRING TRIBUTE
YEA, THE KINGS OF SHEBA AND SABA SHALL BRING OFFERINGS AND
ALL THE KINGS OF THE EARTH SHALL BOW DOWN TO HIM !
.
And his Rule shall be from Sea to Sea, from the Great River, even to the end of the Land [of Yisro’el] !

See also another Midrashic Source for the Matthean Messianic birth-legends: Isaiah 60:1-10 (taken from the Aramaic targum of the text)

O YOU WHO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO ZION, climb the high mountain and lift up your voices with strength,arise ! For YHWH shall arise upon you, and his glory shall be seen upon you; The GOYIM (‘gentiles’)SHALL COME TO YOUR LIGHT, and KINGS SHALL APPROACH THE GLORY OF YOURR RISING !

Raise your eyes and look: all they gather themselves together, THEY COME TO YOU:…the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, THE POWERS OF THE GOYIM SHALL COME TO YOU, EVEN MANY CAMELS SHALL COME BEFORE YOUR FACE(S), the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; AND ALL THOSE FROM SHEBA SHALL COME TOO: THEY SHALL BRING TO YOU GOLD AND INCENSE; in that way they shall express the praises of YHWH.

7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee.

8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, as the doves to their windows? 9 SURELY THE ISLES SHALL WAIT FOR ME, THE SHIPS OF TARSHISH FIRST TO BRING YOUR SONS FROM AFAR, SILVER AND GOLD SHALL BE WITH THEM TO BRING TO THE HOLY ONE of YISRO’EL....' &tc. &tc.

Never confuse the modern idea of ‘positivistic’ ('what actually happened in-time-and-space') HISTORY with HAGGADIC MIDRASH LEGENDS – the Aramaic speaking Messianic Hopefuls in the 1st century occupied Palestine (and the Greek speaking Jewish Messianists in the Diaspora) were not interested in ‘facts’ as we might be to-day, but rather ‘in the hidden esoteric messages of YHWH the clan-god of Yisro’el’ in their so-called sacred 'scriptures' (which in the 1st century in Palestine meant many more books than what later got voted into the old testament after the councils e.g. of Javneh in 90 CE ) that they believed ‘only those with the Spirit’ could uncover.

It turns out that Jesus was not born on December 25th.

funny...you make such a bold claim, then change the topic without providing one shred of evidence, or one hint of anything resembling evidence to back up your claim....


so, are you suggesting we should just believe YOU?

Originally posted by Snarf

It turns out that Jesus was not born on December 25th.

funny...you make such a bold claim, then change the topic without providing one shred of evidence, or one hint of anything resembling evidence to back up your claim....


so, are you suggesting we should just believe YOU?

Well I doubt and there will be many believers that would agree the 25th is not the real birth date...
If you go by the census alone...that wouldn't have taken place in the winter....
The shepherds wouldn't be out in the freezing cold watching the flock.
And I believe the bight star wouldn't have been in the right position in the sky.

Doesnt change anything though..



[edit on 4-2-2010 by 297GT]

Originally posted by 297GT

Originally posted by Snarf

It turns out that Jesus was not born on December 25th.

funny...you make such a bold claim, then change the topic without providing one shred of evidence, or one hint of anything resembling evidence to back up your claim....


so, are you suggesting we should just believe YOU?

Well I doubt and there will be many believers that would agree the 25th is not the real birth date...
If you go by the census alone...that wouldn't have taken place in the winter....
The shepherds wouldn't be out in the freezing cold watching the flock.
And I believe the bight star wouldn't have been in the right position in the sky.

Doesnt change anything though..



[edit on 4-2-2010 by 297GT]

a census of opinions is not sufficient evidence to support such a claim.

The OP makes one of he boldest claims of all time, yet spends not one millisecond trying to back it up.

No proof....thats all there really is to it.

I really was hoping to get more from this thread LOL

In fact I guess I was expecting too much and perhaps(??) a new take rather than this... hmmm...

I thought everyone already knew Jesus wasn't born on 25th December purely from a geographical standpoint I would have said so too excluding Pagan Gods and people that marry their mothers etc etc etc

Originally posted by Snarf

a census of opinions is not sufficient evidence to support such a claim.

The OP makes one of he boldest claims of all time, yet spends not one millisecond trying to back it up.

No proof....thats all there really is to it.

dude I am not against Christ or you, but simple fact is the Romans never conducted a census in winter...
That is the reason Mary and Joesph had to travel...
The Shepard would have had to and still do house the flocks so they wouldn't freeze to death at nights..so they wouldn't have been tending to the herd at night in winter...

I have read it was September 11th

Since Elizabeth (John's mother) was in her sixth month of pregnancy when Jesus was conceived (Luke 1:24-36), we can determine the approximate time of year Jesus was born if we know when John was born. John's father, Zacharias, was a priest serving in the Jerusalem temple during the course of Abijah (Luke 1:5). Historical calculations indicate this course of service corresponded to June 13-19 in that year (The Companion Bible, 1974, Appendix 179, p. 200). It was during this time of temple service that Zacharias learned that he and his wife, Elizabeth, would have a child (Luke 1:8-13). After he completed his service and traveled home, Elizabeth conceived (verses 23-24). Assuming John's conception took place near the end of June, adding nine months brings us to the end of March as the most likely time for John's birth. Adding another six months (the difference in ages between John and Jesus) brings us to the end of September as the likely time of Jesus' birth.

A study of the now computerized data by which we can very accurately determine astronomical events of that time gives us the last piece of the puzzle to dating the birth of Christ in September. In particular, the very noticeable celestial activity of Jupiter, Mars, Mercury, Regulus (the King star), and Venus (the Queen star), and their various combinations of conjunctions in Leo during the nine months leading up to Christ’s birth are vital signs to determine the September birth date of our Lord Jesus. And we believe that research shows that he was born on September 11 (Tishri 1 on the Jewish calendar), on which day the sun was in Virgo, as per the prophecy in Revelation 12:1 of “a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet” (Rev. 12:1). [1]

[edit on 5-2-2010 by 297GT]

A bit of research can clear this right up, and here's your first clue, which will definitely ring a bell: Constantine.

First emperor to legalize Christianity; made it the official religion of the Roman Empire (Holy Roman Church); to isolate Christianity from the Jewish traditions of its mostly Jewish followers (remember Christ and all the disciples were Jews and saw no reason to discontinue ancient feasts, etc, that the Torah said to keep observing forever); by aligning the holy days more with pre-existing pagan traditions, Jews were kept out of circulation amongst the general populace, forbidden to intermarry with Christians, and were beginning to be ostracized in a variety of social and legal ways.

Constantine knew the Christians were still celebrating the Jewish feasts and he wanted it stopped. He didn't want the Jewish traditions continued since, he reasoned, they had killed Christ. Coincidentally, the Bible and other apocryphal texts report that the Jews who planned Christ's execution were destroyed on the day of the Crucifixion by large crevasses that opened during massive earthquakes. Caesar supposedly wrote to Pilate demanding to know why he had killed an innocent man and caused all this chaos (the "worldwide" earthquake). He was angry that Pilate knew Christ had raised a dead man, and none of the Roman gods had done that, but Pilate did not respect that kind of power. Caesar's complaint was actually political, that Pilate didn't back down, and keep doom from all their heads.

But Constantine took control. He also began the process of putting together "acceptable" texts for a common Bible, not the Torah alone.

Holidays + texts - Judaism = Christian tradition.

Hi Copper-Flower &tal-

Yes-- you are on the right track with Constantinus and Nicaea and what followed...the main competitor to 'Christian' mysteries were the Mysteries of Mithras (and in Rome, the Mysteries of Attis, whose death and resurrection every Spring equinox c. March 21-23 pre-echoed Christian practices as well at "Eaostre", but that is another threadlet, I suppose !)

Also, don't forget that the early 4th century Roman Emperor Constantinus was a worshipper (Mystes) of the sun-god Mithras (like so many Roman military men) long BEFORE he (ahem) 'converted' to the Mysteries of Christos [after the so-called battle-vision on the Milvian Bridge] known generically as Christianity (although there were in fact many different and contradictory Christianities running around at the time in different places scattered all over the Empire) but apparently he was never baptised---until his death bed ('at a time when he could hardly sin any more...')

The Roman version of the saviour-god of the sun was 'Mithras' (derived from a combination of the oriignally Persian-Iranian sun-deity Mitra and mixed with the features of the RomanSol Invictus Sun god, and sometimes with iconography borrowed from Apollo as the Unconquorable Sun) and as a 'solar-deity' which was orignally introduced into Rome by Cilician (Tarsian) pirates via Pompey in 79BCE (long before Chrsitianity was invented)- whose 'birth from a rock cave attended by shepherds' was on 25th December each year (i.e. at the beginning of the annual Solar year when the Shadows started to 'grow up' i.e. lengthen on the sun-dial)

And since Mithras and Sol Invictus ('the unconquorable Sun') became 'identified' as a single god by the time of Constantinus whose annual festival (Mithrasmas) lasted 12 days, one for each zodiac sign, hence the 12 days of Christ's Mass--echoing the older annual Saturnalia 12 day festival--December 25th was a very special holiday for pre-Christian pagans (and also for later pagans who clung to the old religion AFTER Christianity began to spread in all its various 'heretical Christianities' in the Roman Empire both east and west) it was virtually imposible to stamp out--and what the Roman Catholic church could not stamp out, it simply INGESTED and made it their own with a new name (Mithrasmas became Christmas, as it were)

Hence the 12 days from Dec 25 being on Jan 6th, the 'Epiphany' holiday, (from the Greek 'Epi-phania' = 'revealing') which Christians later stamped the 3 'Feast of the Three Wise Men' (since 'the Three Magoi-Astrologers' sounded too 'pagan' apparently...)

In some of the earlier Mitra iconography, we see Sol Invictus bowing down to Mithras (who was 'the Saviour of Mankind' 'the Redeemer of men's souls' 'the Intercessor of mankind with the immortal gods' (i.e. the stars, since the sun 'travels between the earth and the stars, i.e. between mortals and heaven), and in later inconography we see the two melded together with a single statue with BOTH titles.

We're back to the subject of the Birth of the Sun-gods and the fact that Roman Christianity eventually had to settle on a date for the Mass of their Christ - which meant, following the phrase in the 3rd Gospel ('according to Luke' whoever he was) 'he must increase, but I must decrease', that the birth of John the Baptist (Mass of John) was therefore JUNE 25th, i.e. 6 months earlier following the track of the 2 annual solstices...6 months apart

Looking closely at any modern calendar, one can plainly see that these specific dates that were set for their 2 respective Masses can be NO co-incidence (and curioiusly links together the Dead Sea Scroll Covenanters idea of TWO Messiahs to save Israel from its occupiers - One Messiah of Israel (kingly = 'Iesous' = R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean) and the other Messiah of Aaron (i.e. a priestly Messiah = John the Baptist =Yohanon bar Zechariah)...

Originally posted by shearder
I really was hoping to get more from this thread LOL

In fact I guess I was expecting too much and perhaps(??) a new take rather than this... hmmm...

I thought everyone already knew Jesus wasn't born on 25th December purely from a geographical standpoint I would have said so too excluding Pagan Gods and people that marry their mothers etc etc etc

so its impossible for Jesus to have been born on December 25th because of where he lived?

You've lost me. I had no idea that geographical location had ANYTHING to do with date of birth.

I wonder why they don't ask for latitude/longitude right beneat your DOB on your social security card application?

haven't you ever wondered why temple mount in jerusalem is such a focal point? that place is extremely old, 3 different abrahamic religions believe totally different things about it at several points and exactly the same at others. if there was ever a hot spot on the planet, ripe for outrageous events, that'd be it.

Luk 2:8 KJV And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

apparently they didn't have flocks out in the winter.

I agree. As a Christian, or an aspiring one, I should more accurately say, I feel like a pawn when Christmas marketing comes along.

More and more of us seem to be breaking out of that rat maze, and giving while we can, what we can, on a daily basis. It's an amazing way to live, and seems to multiply to meet the needs. Back to what it's supposed to be about. Things get simpler somehow, not all the time, but there always seems to be a way back.
But not through the currents of market-inspired "holidays." Holidays should reflect the highest standards of society, teach and mark historical events, and remind people of what living is supposed to be about, family, friends, talents, memories, and to honor what you find holy, hopefully, God, and Yeshua, His son. He is not the reason why people act crazy towards one another. He is the one who fixes their mistakes. And He'll do the same for anyone. I celebrate His birthday all the time, except when I'm making mistakes. He saves me from them by helping me to turn away, forgives me, and strengthens me with His hope and love. I can't explain it better than that...nothing else does that but Him.


So, regardless of when He was born, it matters that He was, so don't let the mistakes of His followers or those that say they are keep anyone from seeking Him themselves. You don't have to miss out on anything, and you really have nothing to lose. He takes all who want to find out about Him. He makes things bearable and better, and gives wisdom and answers to any who ask Him sincerely. It's so amazing, I encourage you all to seek Him with haste. He will prove Himself. And He is more reliable than UFO's, or spirits, or anything else. One need only try, and my words will be unnecessary after that. He gave Himself for all, so He wants any that will come and investigate for themselves, with their own judgments, experiences, and understanding, and just see if He is real. He won't let any person down that really wants to know. His presence is unmistakable, and brings repentance for all things. That's how one knows, but the peace and brilliance and love of how He expresses himself is the real joy of knowing Him. It follows wherever He is, and is poorly imitated by the devil, with fear, but no peace, no wonder, no relief, no real change of your perception and existence. No real help, just false aid from a false friend. Yeshua, His Hebrew name, is a true friend who never fails. But He is a gentleman to us, and will not remind us of our mistakes, but only fix our broken hearts, and somehow give us peace and hope. I strongly encourage people to seek out the possibility of His existence for themselves. Don't let extremists ruin it for you personally.

Just my point of view of course, don't mean to gush, but He is really the definition of faithful. I think every day is Christmas if I choose for it to be.

I don't really like this particular argument because it almost always leads to a what came first the chicken or the egg.

In full disclosure, I am pagan and have been pagan many more years than i was Christian, which was the religion I was born into and couldn't stand from the time I hit 14 and they told me that playing UNO was Satanic.

It doesn't really matter to me what came first, and for me the truth is not in the details or the denotations, but in the conotations.

See, there's a basic truth and need that these holidays provide, whether they are called Christian or Pagan or whatever.

The pagan holidays, being spaced along the calendar, give REGULAR and meaningful rhythm to the year and the cycles that everyone experiences, be he or she Hindu or Jew. It's about the HUMAN experience.

Christmas...Dec. 25. Oh there's a fun one for me. Winter Solstice is on 21st - that is YULE. I get to cook and clean my tail off and then turn around and do it on the 25, since most of my extended family is Christian and we're in the Bible Belt.

Winter Solstice is just that - the 21st. So why the 25th?
I won't go into the pagan gods being BORN on that day, it isn't that important, but what what IS important is HOPE.

See, the 21st is the short day - then everyday gets longer. You can visualize it as

When things are dark, cold, there's no warmth left in the world...

On the 25th - that is the 1st day that a person CAN TELL there is a difference -that is the first day light obviously starts coming back.

When we humans, sometimes in the most pitiful condition, saw HOPE

When the light returned...when the GOD was born....when Jesus was born.

And I really don't understand why anyone can not GET how very sacred it is to think of a weary man, a woman heavy with child....under the burden of a government edict that they can't REST but MUST travel...the world having no room for their little family...and a baby being born no matter WHAT the situation was - the human condition trapped in nature....but glorious too - and what absolute potential that child had right there at his humble birth - and what GLORIOUS potential can each human have if we can ONLY appreciate that we are all in this together, and love one another.

Well said, Hadriana. Culturally and socially, it is the time for acceptable leisure and sentiment, as well as self-indulgence once in a while. For hard-working people everywhere, the holidays are at least a welcome day off or two!