Conspiracy against Christians

reply to post by SaturnFX


But if you also read the teachings you will read that as long as we walk in the flesh of our human bodies we are still in the nature of sin. Only after we shed our human form will we be completely free of the temptation and pull of sin.

Christ is the only perfect human to have ever walked the land. He experienced the temptation of every sin known to man. The difference in He was the Son of God and could withstand the temptations. We are human and therefore going to fall into temptation.

We should strive to be above sin that is not a question. But the sad truth is we are still going to sin. I am only asking that people recognize that and that they understand that it is not of God. At the same time all Christians should understand they will sin and that they will have to answer for that sin and ask forgiveness for it.

I do not need a new religion. I have a great belief and faith system that I follow.

Raist

Originally posted by SaturnFX
athiests/agnostics sin, then we must deal with the consequences, make amends, take responsibility, and try to redeem ourselves not in a all seeing all forgiving supercasper, but to the people we wronged.

Religion takes away personal responsibility (not just christians).

Are you really thinking clearly about this?
Faith in God requires personal responsibility.

You say atheists/agnostics must deal with the consequences, make amends, take responsibility, etc.
But why? Why "must"?
You don't believe anyone created you or set up a standard of laws. So your actions are as good as you say they are. You are your own judge of what is good or bad. So why do you believe there is anything about which you must "accept consequences, make amends, take responnsibility"?
Dude, you don't believe there is a God; so why do you feel compelled to act in contradiction to your beliefs?

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

I will just repost my original comment.

Matt 7:2-5 "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged [if we judge with an evil heart or dark intent, His judgment of us will reflect it; if we judge nobly with honesty and justice, His judgment of us will reflect that, too], and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you [if we use extremes or exaggerations or other ignoble means, our judgment will reflect it and judging with fairness and compassion will garner likewise in His judgment of us]. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye [point out his sins, "minor" in Jesus' example here] and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye [our own sins, even and especially those we will not admit, magnified by our selective blindness]? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' [tell him of his "minor" sins] when all the time there is a plank in your own eye [that there are greater or the same sins in our own lives which we do nothing about or think we are above]? You hypocrite* [pointing out the sins of others while by pretense thinking of ourselves as above sin], first take the plank out of your own eye [sincerely ask the Lord for forgiveness and learn and live the Truth and Light by His Word], and then you will see clearly [be in a righteous position] to remove the speck from your brother's eye [to judge and to help him out of his bondage to sin]." At Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan, Jesus was talking to the multitudes gathered there after hearing of His message and of His healings to beseech them to not become like the pharisees and hypocrites who think they are above sin.

I was using license, to show hypocrisy.

Cast the first stone.

edit to fix tag, why does it always do that?

[edit on 2/2/2010 by endisnighe]

and it still doesnt fit...I never said I/athiests/agnostics/non-christians dont sin, I said we simply have to do alot more than pray the sin away for forgivness...and if we murder someone in cold blood...there is no taking that back, no forgivness for that..whats done is done. Sure, you can look after the family of the murdered person, you can try to make amends, but you will never wash the blood from your hands.

Your license = revoked.

reply to post by SaturnFX


But while on earth even the Christians license that you speak of is revoked.

The only thing that forgiveness does for the Christian is forgive the sin in the afterlife. While on earth we are still held accountable for each and every sin we do. Humans do not forget sin against them only God does that.

So not only do we have to answer for our sins here we also understand we must answer for them to God as well. So our responsibility is doubled.

I would love to see a case of Christians getting off of murder in this world because they asked God to forgive them for killing. I do not think it is possible to point out a case of such a happening. God holds us accountable to mans laws so long as they do not contradict His own laws as well. Even speeding (which I admit I am guilty of doing) is a sin. It is a sin only because man has made laws against it. If we break mans laws that do not break Gods laws we still sin because we are supposed to obey mans laws according to God.

Raist

The one harmful aspect I see of the Christian religion is the teaching that upon the acceptance of man savior, one can go to heaven regardless of what evil one has or will commit. If one accepts this man savior through a simple prayer, that person will then be pardoned from all wrong doing. And if that individual were to commit a serious crime towards another, all they have to do is pray and their hands will be wiped clean. While the victim and family/friends still suffer, all you have to do is say a simple prayer. I believe that is extremely silly, and very harmful to be taught. If you must believe in something, I believe Karma is the most appropriate and proper belief. That means what goes around comes around and you pay for your bad and good. Not just a free ticket to heaven by an effortless prayer.

reply to post by captaintyinknots

But it seems that history is finally catching up with them.

Spot on man...





A good analogy, though the time periods are quite different, would be the U.S...the hegemonic label attached to the states (rightfully so, btw), has brought a lot of criticism to the table.


And though christianity may not have the following of other religions, they are top dog when it comes power and corruption...


With group think transparently alive when the discussion comes up, it's hard not to jump in in either case for either side...


What it comes down to is this - christianity sux, not everyone that follows it...and though you may say, "well, if they follow something that sux, why don't they..?"

Because everyone utilizes a crutch in life - theirs just happens to be a leader in the Hypocritical category...in addition, they chose a crutch that has a ball-n-chain attached.

Sux to be them...and just knowing this should be enough for most individuals, but sometimes it isn't. Hence - flaming hatred at times...

Originally posted by pumpkinorange

Originally posted by SaturnFX
athiests/agnostics sin, then we must deal with the consequences, make amends, take responsibility, and try to redeem ourselves not in a all seeing all forgiving supercasper, but to the people we wronged.

Religion takes away personal responsibility (not just christians).

Are you really thinking clearly about this?
Faith in God requires personal responsibility.

You say atheists/agnostics must deal with the consequences, make amends, take responsibility, etc.
But why? Why "must"?
You don't believe anyone created you or set up a standard of laws. So your actions are as good as you say they are. You are your own judge of what is good or bad. So why do you believe there is anything about which you must "accept consequences, make amends, take responnsibility"?
Dude, you don't believe there is a God; so why do you feel compelled to act in contradiction to your beliefs?

First off, you have no clue what my beliefs are beyond not a fan of the bible...for all you know, I may be a pagan, athiest, buddist, etc...but lets get beyond that and look at the flaw in your arguement.

Athiest believes this is it...make it or break it...animals are also athiests. Animals work in communities and work well in them. they do not go on nutty killing sprees amongst each other as it would not benefit their community to do so. So, the moral code that is imbued with us genetically is to enhance and grow the community.

Murder = not great for the community
Theft = not good for the community
Sex = good for the community (unless the person is spoken for...then we could end up back at the murder thing if your not careful)
incest = not good for genetics, therefore not good for the community

could go on, but basically, most of the 10 commandments are represented here as simple logical and biological necessities to have a stable society verses a path to extinction.

You dont need dietys to tell you that survival is good, and commonsense rules for survival increase the chance of longevity in the tribe/community/society/species. Following said rules = good, because it keeps us in existance. Do you need a bible passage to tell you to eat when your hungry and sleep when your sleepy? no...because your body tells you your going to do it or die. but the body doesnt stop there...it tells you generally how to survive both short term and long term (hense once survival is checked off the list, you start looking for someone to mate with...for the nice feeling, companionship, but the more basic reason...to reproduce and continue).

Good thread though...bit derailed of course, but who doesn't like a spirited discussion about religion

Originally posted by pplrnuts
I believe Karma is the most appropriate and proper belief.

The aztecs (I think...straining my memory) had a belief that you reincarnated at death one after another life in the body of those whom you effected in your life...aka, if you were a kind and giving man, you would end up on the recieving end of this giving person...

however, if you were a evil tyrant, you were...well, spending a considerable amount of time dealing with lives on the recieving end of your initial cruelty.

They also used to greet one another and refer to them as another aspect of themselves.

might not have been the aztecs...but anyhow, if I was a diety, thats probably how I would structure it...do what you want, but you will feel all of what you do.

reply to post by pplrnuts


See my post above yours on the issue for the most part. I know that is a bit lazy of me but I am sorry I don’t want to retype everything I did.

I will though touch on a few issues. For the most part it works like karma to the point that I must also answer for my sins while on earth. NO matter the sin, no matter who it is against I must answer for that sin, to truly be Christian. Being forgiven by God only helps when it comes to the afterlife. I am not getting off for murder or rape if I commit such an act just by asking God to forgive me. At the same time I also would hope that even the worst of us can be saved by just a simple prayer. If such a person can be saved by such a pray that means that even me with my small sins in the eyes of man can be forgiven as well.

Also the fact that even terrible sins can be forgiven shows how compassionate God can be. You bring up those that suffer do to another’s sin, but they have the same option of being forgiven as well. Suffering on earth is nothing compared to what suffering in an afterlife will be like. But that is for another thread.

Raist

reply to post by Raist


Yes, I do not look forward to my penance in purgatory.

It will be like eternity, yet the time will be well spent and well rewarded.

Thanks for the OP Raist.

Originally posted by Raist
reply to post by pplrnuts

 

Also the fact that even terrible sins can be forgiven shows how compassionate God can be. You bring up those that suffer do to another’s sin, but they have the same option of being forgiven as well. Suffering on earth is nothing compared to what suffering in an afterlife will be like. But that is for another thread.

Raist

reply to post by BillfromCovina


Doesn't seem that a God who forgives all sins except disbelief is very compassionate. Why would a God who created the whole Universe want to punish me for an eternity? Why does an almighty being need me to believe? Your post says that you see a conspiracy against Christians. Christians make up 90% of the population. Now that you can't force people to pray and have ten commandments posted you feel persecuted. All the Christians I know stand in judgement of others and the world. ALL

reply to post by Raist


Two phrases come to mind on this topic: One, 'Turnabout is fair play', and two, 'What goes around, comes around'... It's just Karma coming back to haunt Christianity... For a couple of millenia, it has been the Christians who have conspired against the non-Christian world, now Karma is coming back on this institution... Sorry, but TAG, you're it...

Christians believe that a mystical being with all encompassing powers, an omnipotent, omniscient being who hears every, sees everything can do everything and anything - and yet there is no proof of this being whatsoever, this being has never done anything to show us his existence, has never provided proof or delivered an example beyond the worlds of half a dozen blokes two thousand years ago who wrote about someone who claimed to be the son of a supreme being sixty years after his death - some of whom never even met the guy with the hallucinogenic claims - ummm - theres no conspiracy here mate - people are just more informed now days and have given up living in fantasy land. Perhaps you should give it a shot.

People seem to enjoy hating along label lines. Generalizing every bad thing a member of the competing label does to the label does into a group failing reinforces that and lets them feel superior as they don't do that with their label. It's classic tribalistic "Us yay! Them boo!" BS psychology really.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

A few Christians deserve being discriminated against.

I am a christian deist and a nudist.
I go to legal nude beaches as is my right under US laws.

But there are Christians that try any way to cause trouble or to get these legal nude beaches closed just because they believe there should not be any nude beaches in the US to the point they make false claims to law enforcement to cause trouble. Deist believe in a freedom of religion and has nothing against nudity where its legal.

I don't leave it just about nude beaches because there are other things that these "Christians" don't like that they bother people about.

I have even heard stories about me being a deist that claim deism is everything from witchcraft to worshiping aliens.

It has got to the point i don't even try to correct them just make fun off them as stupid nutcases.(that has got a couple of them mad at me but what do i care)

reply to post by BillfromCovina


Again that is for another thread, which is not what this thread is about. I believe God is compassionate, you obviously do not. This thread is not about that though.

Please do not try to side track or derail my thread with an issue that has nothing to do with the OP.

Raist

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


So then we should hold grudges against anyone who ever lived by that ideology.

I cannot find an innocent culture or group of people anywhere in history.

Maybe it is a good thing if the world just had one huge slug feast. Every group in history is guilty of wrongs. You cannot live in the past and you cannot stare into the rear view mirror or you will crash while trying to move forward.

Raist

Originally posted by Raist
reply to post by BillfromCovina

 

Again that is for another thread, which is not what this thread is about. I believe God is compassionate, you obviously do not. This thread is not about that though.

Please do not try to side track or derail my thread with an issue that has nothing to do with the OP.

Raist

This is not what I believe but the Bible's version of God. This is also a very important part of your thread. Many Christians believe that they are saved by faith and not works. God will forgive any sin for a believer and damn any non-believer. Christians constantly point out the sin of others and the world. They constantly preach about end times and how God is going to judge the wickedness of the world. Then when someone brings up the fact that one of their leaders gets caught in a hotel room smoking crack with a male prostitute, they believe it is a conspiracy.

reply to post by BillfromCovina


Why would I believe it to be a conspiracy for a man to be caught sinning? As I pointed out in the OP we are human, human nature is to sin. While we are still in the flesh we are going to sin, there is no way around it.

We might not sin as often but we do sin daily in most cases. It might be something the world does not see as a sin, but t is still a sin such as the addiction thing (smoking or whatnot).

God will judge wickedness at the end of the world. And everyone in the world sins. I see nothing wrong with pointing out the obvious. Those who get upset and lose faith or claim it is a conspiracy when a “leader” (really not true I have no leader as a Christian aside from God) is caught sinning have put their faith in man over their faith in God. That alone is a sin. I respect my pastor but I realize he can sin just as any of us can. In fact he has told many stories about getting upset with things that take too long. He sinned, he admits to it, he might need to work more on patience I can say I do as well much of the time.

Jesus himself said there is only one way to the Father and that is through Him. I cannot change the decision of God, it is not my choice. Those who chose another way and know what Jesus said face their own punishments. I do not try to control others, they make their own choice. God is all forgiving, but one has to ask for forgiveness. In order to do so one would need to be a believer. If you do not believe you will not ask and mean it. If you do not believe you will face your own punishments.

But yes this is a bit off topic from the conspiracy of targeting and labeling all Christians as bad people.

Raist