Which Is It, "Conspiracy Theory", or "Conspiracy Fact"?

reply to post by HappilyEverAfter


One of the few times I find myself admitting this but I have little to add to your post.

Other than to say you, well said, well said indeed.

And that being said to a newer member is my way of tipping my hat to you.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


You answered your own question. It is both.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


Alright, I had 5000 characters written and now they are gone.

Oh how I hate that!

A quick outline and I will return to write it up again.

Dreamers, outside the box thinkers, are able to set aside preconceived notions or their edumacation to see beyond the veil.

The conspiracy (note no word following) of the world's education and knowledge base, in and of itself, being one of the worst detriment to society as a whole.

Compartmentalization is one you touched on with the origination of oil. I touched on that in several different threads.

The inability of some people to set aside what they have been trained to "know" as truth, is very frustrating when debating. Not only on another's part, but oneself.

I will be back later to finish this thought. Excellent thread and excellent comments so far everyone.

I was only able to read the OP twice and speed read the comments, so I will be back later to absorb more.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

You answered your own question. It is both.

A bear tries to maul the thread.

To just leave it that way would be no fun, no fun at all.

reply to post by endisnighe


Don't you just hate that?

Earlier, I had one of my replies typed up, I think it was to EnlightenUp, and when I clicked reply, the libraries Wi-Fi system booted me, and I lost it all.

It was one of those ten thousand character replies, with quotes of his post too.

I copied and pasted his entire post into Microsoft Word and started over.

Checking to make sure I was not on the edge of a boot too.

Take your time, endisnighe, the thread will be here for some time, and I'm sure your follow-up will be stunning, as per usual.

Type, edit, and quote in Microsoft Word, I am beginning to think I will have to do it like that.

reply to post by EnlightenUp


OK, I'll try this then. Does it matter?

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
reply to post by HappilyEverAfter

 

One of the few times I find myself admitting this but I have little to add to your post.

Other than to say you, well said, well said indeed.

And that being said to a newer member is my way of tipping my hat to you.

(reaches into the fridge and pulls out a cold bottle cracks the top and reads the reply again, realizes there's no need to but feels compelled to anyway)

Thank you sir !

(wanders off to check the woodburner)

Addressing the creation of oil briefly as to not derail,
The entire fairytale process requires either a continual earth circumference expansion by the addition of matter from space creating entire new layers for the mass dying rotting gathering pressurizing and pooling of the product, or the acceptance that there was not nearly the amount of water as the record shows and the earth was covered so densely and the compaction so loose as to allow the fairytale to occur.
(i'm with you on it, good eye)

carry on.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


There have been prior reports of those trying to reply to me losing their posts. The last incident involved two power outages in his building when redwoodjedi and I were have a discussion.

There's definitely something going on...what don't they want me to know?

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by EnlightenUp

 

OK, I'll try this then. Does it matter?

Does it matter if it's both or does it matter if it's theory or fact?

Relative to the eternal and permanent, not really.

I suppose it's more interesting when something has substance and the theory has a reasonable chance of coming to light as fact. One post by someone read roughtly "No fancy math is gonna convince me the Norway spiral wasn't HAARP. ... We must demand answers."

Ok, so your'e just unable to comprehend a logical treatment using a tool that's proven its worth in making sense of the world and scared of people who understand things you don't. The world's a scary place with things going on that beguile you and you must lash out, substituting the PTB for the gods of old. Ok, fine, just don't try to burn me.

reply to post by EnlightenUp


In the end I suppose, it matters only to each of us in as far as it concerns us.

One person says, "I believe we have been visited by Aliens, I've seen one myself". To that person the existence of Aliens is a fact because they have seen one themselves.

Another believes also because the first person is a trusted friend and if they say it is true, it is true and they trust them not to lie. To this person it is theory based on their trust of another who says it is fact.

Another believes the person who claims to have seen the Alien is either crazy or lying and does not believe Aliens have ever visited the Earth.

Another throws the whole thing out not knowing what is fact and what is fiction and has no belief one way or the other.

reply to post by Blaine91555


Sure, I once woke up to the sensation of being dumped into my bed, turned my head to the left to witness a tall and a short figure exit my room through a rectangular portal of intense, bluish light, each figure in black silhouette. Once they had made it fully through the opening, it closed in with a gentle "woosh" behind them.

Some would say I hallucinated while awake, a dream lingering into wakefulness; some would say I was abducted or visted. Personally, it still seems quite mysterious despite my witnessing it. It was quite real and yet surreal.

I expect nothing beyond being believed that I saw something. That much is true.

Great idea and awesome OP.

Can we come up with another term? 'Alternative Knowledge' perhaps? When an overwhelming majority of the masses can't even agree on the 'official' story (JFK, 9/11, for example(s)), is it even fair to call the 'alternative' theory (if even more commonly accepted) the 'conspiracy'?

And, how about some new analogies/metaphors. I know some folks have done some research on Conspiracy Theories that have been proven true [the "33" and "Top 10" threads come to mind], but we need some more 'laymen' examples.

When someone asks me what I think about a [controversial] subject, I simply provide them evidence to an alternate theory to which they reply, "wow, that's very interesting, but..." then go on to use that all too polarizing word, "Conspiracy" - to which I often reply, "You know, just 500 hundred years ago, the Sun being the center of our solar system was a conspiracy, and people were being executed for supporting this idea, so..." - got any more?

Originally posted by SquirrelNutz
Great idea and awesome OP.

Can we come up with another term? 'Alternative Knowledge' perhaps? When an overwhelming majority of the masses can't even agree on the 'official' story (JFK, 9/11, for example(s)), is it even fair to call the 'alternative' theory (if even more commonly accepted) the 'conspiracy'?

Thank you.

Well, that is not exactly where I was going with this thread nor my thoughts.

But I have zero problem with the thread discussing that.

Originally posted by SquirrelNutz
And, how about some new analogies/metaphors. I know some folks have done some research on Conspiracy Theories that have been proven true [the "33" and "Top 10" threads come to mind], but we need some more 'laymen' examples.

Care to share?

Originally posted by SquirrelNutz
When someone asks me what I think about a [controversial] subject, I simply provide them evidence to an alternate theory to which they reply, "wow, that's very interesting, but..." then go on to use that all too polarizing word, "Conspiracy" - to which I often reply, "You know, just 500 hundred years ago, the Sun being the center of our solar system was a conspiracy, and people were being executed for supporting this idea, so..." - got any more?

This is why I go into the politics, policy, procedure, and protocol.

Most people know little of the behind the scenes knowledge.

Most still walk away scratching their heads but at least they realize there is more to it.

The only fact I know for sure through an overwhelming amount of evidence is that there is a conspiracy amongst the elite on this planet, propelling agenda not known to the public and creating catalysts for future events to unfold.

Specific details, methods, who is in it, who knows what, why and often times even how...that is all theory.

I will make this brief:

1) Conspiracies are facts
2) Not all conspiracy theories are facts

This is somewhat targeted at concerned citizen who states that thinking conspiracy is dangerous and irrational. This is naive, because we know for a fact that conspiracies have and do happen regularly. There have been several instances where theories have later been proven to be facts.

Conspiracy theories are like any theories. They are based on some grounds which can be interpreted to indicate something, such as a plausible scenorio. In media and cultural studies, a lot of the stuff that gets written could be called conspiracy. The feminists argue how society is patriarchal and women are deliberately marginalized, the film critics argue how a movie was made to portray certain political ideologies or as propoganda, gay activists argue how homosexuals are discriminated against. Like any theory, a conspiracy theory needs to be adjudged based on the evidence available.

UFO's for example can be interpreted to indicate ET's thus creating a theory. This theory can then be furnished with evidence to make it stronger and stronger, until it becomes just as solid as any theory and therefore it is just as credible. The more solid a theory the more useful it becomes to interpret something.


[edit on 5-2-2010 by Indigo_Child]

reply to post by Indigo_Child


When humans form a mental image of the world that does not correspond to reality, they become corrupt and destroy themselves. Better to work towards a better human future by embracing reality and not silly bureaucratic, academic or emotional abstractions. We live in an amusing time where scientific and argumentative logic is often considered to define reality itself, even though such ideas are conjectural by their very nature (the universe is larger than us, thus all of our assessments approximate but do not exactly match a description of its mechanisms). People are fond of saying "This proves..." or "It's a known fact that..." without realizing that despite all of our theories and suppositions, there is only one proof in the world: events and actions as they occur, including the response of the surrounding ecosystem and physical world.

Originally posted by concernedcitizan
reply to post by Indigo_Child

 

When humans form a mental image of the world that does not correspond to reality, they become corrupt and destroy themselves. Better to work towards a better human future by embracing reality and not silly bureaucratic, academic or emotional abstractions. We live in an amusing time where scientific and argumentative logic is often considered to define reality itself, even though such ideas are conjectural by their very nature (the universe is larger than us, thus all of our assessments approximate but do not exactly match a description of its mechanisms). People are fond of saying "This proves..." or "It's a known fact that..." without realizing that despite all of our theories and suppositions, there is only one proof in the world: events and actions as they occur, including the response of the surrounding ecosystem and physical world.

Although I definitely agree that we should stay clear of too much abstractions, we also have to stay clear of positivistic statements about what is reality. Sure, on the grounds something as simple as a media text, say a news clipping of the life events going on Iraq, certainly shows us something, but we must not forget that even something as simple as live war coverage is constructed by external interests. Something as simple as framing the events in a certain way could be enough to distort the reality of what is really happening. This is why I caution you not to be naive and accept things only at face-value. Even something as simple as a light bulb in your home has a history of economic and political agenda, because its goes through a manufacturing process and a negotiation process by corporations before it is even produced.

To engage in this process of abstraction we are able to first acknowledge that the given reality is not as it seems, but in fact it has undergone a history before it has arrived to us, thus what is reality itself becomes a questionable thing. The events of 9/11 for instance are not as simple as just a plane being flown into a building, there is a much wider history of discourse that has lead to that event. The job of the theorist, including conspiracy theorist, is to uncover that history to inform us better on the reality of things. If we do not do that, then we would just be hopelessly naive and vulnerable to being exploited and controlled. Remember, conspiracies do happen.

reply to post by Indigo_Child


It is easy to fool most people. Our words and symbols mislead us, because we can label any illusion as "good" and most people if told enough times that it is "good" will come to demand it. The super-rich will manipulate as oligarchs, meaning they will appear in no elections and never make a public statement, but will use their money to influence government and society so that their means of achieving wealth are unobstructed, no matter how destructive they are. (This is why in democratic societies the most pressing problems are never directly addressed).

F.W. Nietzsche, in his "On Truth and Lies in a Non-Moral Sense," pointed out this disparity between "public image of good" and "realistic image of good" and ushered in a time of post-modern thinking when people attempted to grapple with the idea that symbols do not inherently accurately represent reality. His critique of public morality as derived from Christianity, crowd thinking and technology was that it creates a schizoid reality where we the citizens live between public illusion and inner truth, but never achieve either. Already we have seen this pattern developing over centuries but it becomes increasingly powerful.

Since we cannot abandon our illusion, it continues to manipulate, and the travesty goes on. Oligarchs behind the scenes manipulate politics so their destructive industries can achieve profit. Pollution destroys small parts of our environment and causes an effect similar to removing parts from a complex machine, which is a gradually increasing tendency toward failure. The inner cities get more violent and hopeless, and the normal working person must give up more money to avoid destructive cities and purchase better quality services than the norm, which is declining in quality. There is no way out but change. If we are brave enough to choose a different path, we should pick carefully the most realistic path we desire.

Rather then chase the minutia of conspiracy let us confront our enemy head on. The enemy being modern society itself.

The super-rich will manipulate as oligarchs, meaning they will appear in no elections and never make a public statement, but will use their money to influence government and society so that their means of achieving wealth are unobstructed, no matter how destructive they are. (This is why in democratic societies the most pressing problems are never directly addressed).

Since we cannot abandon our illusion, it continues to manipulate, and the travesty goes on. Oligarchs behind the scenes manipulate politics so their destructive industries can achieve profit.

Rather then chase the minutia of conspiracy let us confront our enemy head on. The enemy being modern society itself.

You see, you are actually highlighting a conspiracy here yourself. The hidden hand of the super-rich oligarchs. This is fine, is hardly a conspiracy theory actually that an elite few control the world and manipulate it. Modern society itself cannot be understood without these elite few, because modern society serves the interests of these elite few. So in order to confront the enemy, we first need to understand these elite few and how they manipulate events in the world. This is where your conspiracy theorist comes in. The conspiracy theorist sheds light on these hidden hands so that they are no longer hidden.

All other issues plaguing modern society such as enviromental degregation, exploitation of the third world, terrorism, survailance, WMD threats etc are inherently connected to these elite few, because these elite few have control of the world and pull the strings in the world. It is their unbridled greed and thirst for power that leads to the problems of modern society. The conspiracy theorist has been able to bring them into public consciousness and also expose their post-human agendas. So the conspiracy theorist is actually very valuable and serves their role in addressing the root of the evil in the world. They do this in many ways, shedding light on alternative technology, exposing cover-ups, educating about alternative sciences, medicine and economics.

As you say yourself we cannot continue as we are, we need to do change. This is another reason why the conspiracy theorist is important, because without them people would just continue doing the same thing and remain unaware of the real power dynamics in the world and real agendas at play.

[edit on 5-2-2010 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by SpectreDC
The only fact I know for sure through an overwhelming amount of evidence is that there is a conspiracy amongst the elite on this planet, propelling agenda not known to the public and creating catalysts for future events to unfold.

Specific details, methods, who is in it, who knows what, why and often times even how...that is all theory.

I concur.

Overwhelming evidence is out there.

People just forget they need to put it in that format, as evidence.