Which Is It, "Conspiracy Theory", or "Conspiracy Fact"?

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posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 04:52 PM
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This thread is one I have been looking forward to making for a very long time.

My reason is because of one simple word, "conspiracy".

Many people know that word and have their own opinion of it but not many know it has many meanings.

Which Is It, "Conspiracy Theory", or "Conspiracy Fact"?

Conspiracy means :


Quote from Wikipedia : Conspiracy

Conspiracy, conspirator or conspire may refer to:

Types of conspiracies

Cabal, an association between religious, political, or tribal officials to further their own ends, usually by intrigue

Conspiracy (civil), an agreement between persons to deceive, mislead, or defraud others of their legal rights, or to gain an unfair advantage

Conspiracy (crime), an agreement between persons to break the law in the future, in some cases having committed an act to further that agreement

Conspiracy (political), see Conspiracy (civil) and Conspiracy (crime), or to overthrow a government


So, in posting on ATS which one are looking to post about, or which one are you insterested in reading about, a "conspiracy fact", or a "conspiracy theory"?

Which Is It, "Conspiracy Theory", or "Conspiracy Fact"?

A cabal is defined as :


Quote from : Wikipedia : Cabal

A cabal is a number of people together in some close design, usually to promote their private views and interests in a church, state, or other community, often by intrigue.

Cabals are sometimes secret societies composed of a few designing persons, and at other times are manifestations of emergent behavior in society or governance on the part of a community of persons who have well established public affiliation or kinship.

The term can also be used to refer to the designs of such persons or to the practical consequences of their emergent behavior, and also holds a general meaning of intrigue and conspiracy.

Its usage carries strong connotations of shadowy corners, back rooms and insidious influence; a cabal is more evil and selective than, say, a faction, which is simply selfish; because of this negative connotation, few organizations use the term to refer to themselves or their internal subdivisions.

Amongst the exceptions is Discordianism, in which the term is used to refer to an identifiable group within the Discordian religion.


That is one of many defnitions of "conspiracy", the next is "conspiracy (civil)".

Which Is It, "Conspiracy Theory", or "Conspiracy Fact"?

Conspiracy (Civil) is defined as :


Quote from : Wikipedia : Conspiracy (Civil)

A civil conspiracy or collusion is an agreement between two or more parties to deprive a third party of legal rights or deceive a third party to obtain an illegal objective.

A conspiracy may also refer to a group of people who make an agreement to form a partnership in which each member becomes the agent or partner of every other member and engage in planning or agreeing to commit some act.

It is not necessary that the conspirators be involved in all stages of planning or be aware of all details.

Any voluntary agreement and some overt act by one conspirator in furthance of the plan are the main elements necessary to prove a conspiracy.

A conspiracy may exist whether legal means are used to accomplish illegal results, or illegal means used to accomplish something legal.

"Even when no crime is involved, a civil action for conspiracy may be brought by the persons who were damaged."

In the law of tort, the legal elements necessary to establish a civil conspiracy are substantially the same as for establishing a criminal conspiracy, i.e. there is an agreement between two or more natural persons to break the law at some time in the future or to achieve a lawful aim by unlawful means.

The criminal law often requires one of the conspirators to take an overt step to accomplish the illegal act to demonstrate the reality of their intention to break the law, whereas in a civil conspiracy, an overt act towards accomplishing the wrongful goal may not be required.

Etymologically, the term comes from Latin con- "with, together", and spirare "to breathe".


Interestng indeed the complexities as the scale rises in the nature of "conspiracy".

Which Is It, "Conspiracy Theory", or "Conspiracy Fact"?


Quote from : Wikipedia : Conspiracy (Crime)

In the criminal law, a conspiracy is an agreement between two or more persons to break the law at some time in the future, and, in some cases, with at least one overt act in furtherance of that agreement.

There is no limit on the number participating in the conspiracy and, in most countries, no requirement that any steps have been taken to put the plan into effect (compare attempts which require proximity to the full offence).

For the purposes of concurrence, the actus reus is a continuing one and parties may join the plot later and incur joint liability and conspiracy can be charged where the co-conspirators have been acquitted or cannot be traced.

Finally, repentance by one or more parties does not affect liability but may reduce their sentence.


That there is an actual law regarding "conspiracy" may make people wake up to what they read about, and or post about, and very well how they look into the "conspiracy theory" they think about altogether.

Which Is It, "Conspiracy Theory", or "Conspiracy Fact"?


Quote from : Wikipedia : Conspiracy (Political)

In a political sense, conspiracy refers to a group of persons united in the goal of usurping or overthrowing an established political power.

Typically, the final goal is to gain power through a revolutionary coup d'état or through assassination.

A conspiracy is to be contrasted with a cabal.

The two are similar but have quite different connotations; in contrast to a cabal, a conspiracy usually looks to overthrow a fixed power instead of usurping it from within.


Last but certainly not least, is what most radically believe or disbelieve, called "conspiracy theory".


Quote from : Wikipedia : Conspiracy Theory

A conspiracy theory alleges an event and/or events to be secretly influenced by a premeditated group and/or groups of powerful people or organizations working together.


Which Is It, "Conspiracy Theory", or "Conspiracy Fact"?

If you put in the search word on YouTube, "conspiracy" you get this :

Conspiracy Search Word on YouTube

So, fellow ATS'ers, fellow collaborators of "Deny'ing Ignorance", are you speaking of "conspiracy fact", "conspiracy theory", or perhaps, are you "conspiring" yourself?

This thread is about nothing other than "conspiracy", not about one in particular, not about your thoughts on the allegations of "Official Story", or "Truther Movement", but about which is it that you are reading, posting, and doing on ATS.

There is no right answer, there is no wrong answer, the only right you will find here is you may have been wrong, and the only wrong you will find it you may have been right.

As long as you as well stay within ATS's T & C you may very well find this thread intriguing, and if you step outside of them, you may very well have found this thread infuriating...

Which Is It, "Conspiracy Theory", or "Conspiracy Fact"?

[edit on 1-2-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]




posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 04:56 PM
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I'm going to lunch and will read a bit more in depth and get an appropriate response in a bit, just wanted to say one thing.

Conspiracy Truth---Biggest Oxymoron I have heard this year Spartan!



~Keeper



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 04:57 PM
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Conspiracy Theory is the suspicion. "I have a conspiracy theory that the 911 Official story is a lie and that the government was involved." In other words, I think there was a conspiracy, but it hasn't been proven. (I think it HAS been proven, but that's another thread.


Once it's proven to be a fact, it just becomes a conspiracy. The Project Northwoods Conspiracy. for example.




posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by tothetenthpower
I'm going to lunch and will read a bit more in depth and get an appropriate response in a bit, just wanted to say one thing.

Conspiracy Truth---Biggest Oxymoron I have heard this year Spartan!



~Keeper


Well, yes, but so is "Military Intelligence".


You know the thread is waiting for you to come back.

The thread itself will take off since I know the word "conspiracy" is in the title.


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Conspiracy Theory is the suspicion. "I have a conspiracy theory that the 911 Official story is a lie and that the government was involved." In other words, I think there was a conspiracy, but it hasn't been proven. (I think it HAS been proven, but that's another thread.


Once it's proven to be a fact, it just becomes a conspiracy. The Project Northwoods Conspiracy. for example.



Oh, of course, BH, but this is a which witch, is which thread.


Are you really speaking of a theory, does it touch on a law covered, and was what you really saw what you thought you saw.


Loving every minute of it, BH, you know me.



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 05:04 PM
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Good idea.

In my experience, Conspiracy-Theorists are smart enough to conspire themselves and therefore wary of others Conspiracies. People too naive to conspire are less likely to suspect Conspiracy elsewhere. Some get lost in negative-thinking though.

Conspiracy-facts are conspiracies which have come to full light. Examples

[edit on 1-2-2010 by Skyfloating]



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 05:14 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
Brilliant - get ready for a Mega-Thread.

In my experience, Conspiracy-Theorists are smart enough to conspire themselves and therefore wary of others Conspiracies. People too naive to conspire are less likely to suspect Conspiracy elsehwere. Some get lost in negative-thinking though.

Conspiracy-facts are conspiracies which have come to full light. Examples


Thanks Skyfloating.


I had never seen AshleyD's thread on "false-flag operations".

She's on a roll.

Be sure and invite her over here in case I forget.

Her's remind me of a few I've seen and done in the past.

I used to be what most people refer to as a "conspiracy theorist".

But due to my knowledge of Government, military, Intelligence Agencies, I no longer refer to or respond to being called one of those, but instead a person preparing for politics.

Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece, both places of political conspracies from Caesar and Brutus, to Leonidas and Xerxes, both have their political conspiracies, based upon sex, drugs, without the rock and roll, but bread and circuses and the distraction of the peasant class by the elite in power, and war being one of the biggest "conspiracies" of them all because without the tapestry of political causation and the chaos of discomfiture among the classes, a "conspiracy" could never exist, let alone be spoken about to begin with.

The wizards of yesteryear learned there was no way to turn lead into gold, a "conspiracy" of a sense, yet when war is building the lead of bullets leads to real gold.

An actual "conspiracy" that is so convoluted many miss the key points.



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 05:16 PM
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It doesn't have to be just one or the other. It's both and everywhere in between. If you don't believe me, ask yourself. You're all doing my head in so much that I've come here to remind you about it.

Think!



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 05:37 PM
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Alright, so now that I am back from lunch, I can address this situation you've placed before me Spartan
.

I think the question you posed as I stated above is a bit of an oxymoron, reason being is that once something is proven to be truthful in regards to any conspiracy, it becomes history.

Conspiracy is something that is a theory in my mind, we talk about them here ofcourse and give our opinions and attempt to decipher the mountains of dis-information and factual evidence presented by various people, agencies and news outlets.

Once we as a community here at ATS come a concensus based on the factual evidence, and that the conspiracy theory is proven valid, I don't think we can classify it as a conspiracy, so long as the Powers That Be agree to the findings.

I would prefer to discuss theory myself, as fact is just too...factual
.

I like it when there is room to speculate. It would usually provide a different avenue of thought, which then leads to more in depth reasearch of a particular topic from various different angles.

Much like analysing the MSM news sources, I like to go to every one of them, read the same stories, pick out the differences and then do my own research to figure out exactly what happened.

I may not come to the exact truth, but a better one than what is being presented as factual.

~Keeper



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 06:13 PM
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Conspiracy conjecture - I just don't like to think like other people because it makes me ordinary.

Conspiracy theory - I've got some documents from the internet.

Conspiracy fact - Hey, you're out of the closet.

Conspiracy factory - See Conspiracy conjecture.



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 06:13 PM
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Conspiracy thinking is dangerous because it does not correctly associate blame, and in doing so, has people fighting a chimera they can never defeat while ignoring real problems. It is a form of scapegoating, where we identify a conscious evil entity instead of the actual enemy, which is a system design that institutes radical evil, or the mundane form of accepted ways of doing things that produces negative results by its lack of realism.

Common conspiracy targets are the military-industrial complex, "The Jew," the Masons, the Media, the Christian right, multinational corporations, and so on. These are more correctly referred to as "lobbies," or those who influence politics indirectly with money and favors and mass mobilization through media, and when they are successful as "oligarchs," or those who manipulate from behind the scenes with money and power and social influence. However, lobbies and oligarchs did not create the system as it is, nor do they control it, although they have power in it and profit from it. They are symptoms and not the disease. The disease is a bad social design that allows such things to happen.

It is beyond doubt that lobbies and oligarchs create damage and perpetuate the decline of a system, but it is a mistake to assign to them a shadowy role of controlling it or creating it, because one will be then fighting the lobby or oligarch -- which is one of many such entities -- and not focusing on fixing the system itself. Conspiracy thinking engenders a negative psychology of paranoia and symbolic thinking instead of directing the user toward a realism in which the social design is corrupt and can be fixed, and that fix will in itself eliminate the power of all lobbies and oligarchs, actually resolving the problem.

Most who subscribe to conspiracy thinking do so from the following psychological pragma: because X group is in control, and X group can never be beaten, there is nothing I can do of substance, therefore I will grumble and groan but I will not take practical action, because if I do so, X group will eliminate me. Conspiracy thinking is not only illogical, but it is a shallow psychological justification for inaction



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 06:14 PM
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What is sadly underscored in this thread is the "fact", if you will, that the very term "conspiracy theorist" has been given many undue and very negative connotations by both the media and government.
It has become a successful label to shut up opposition to certain policies. When GW Bush proclaimed "let us not entertain any wild conspiracy theories" about 9/11, he set the tone the media (FOX news esp.) has since institutionalized.
In my mind this amounts to verbal jiu jitsu, twisting the burden of proof argument on to the skeptics of the offical story. Again, the war of words has gone badly for humankind as this thread proves.
I seriously doubt anyone on ATS is a conspirator of any kind aside from surprise birthday parties, the real conspirators operate on our tax dollar and it has fallen unfortunately on us, the public to unwind the ball of lies since there is no 4th estate anymore. If there were they were quickly shut out of all offical access and left to scrounge for scraps of the truth.
The real conspiracy facts are only known to those who participate in them, conspiracy theories are what happens when the facts are kept secret by the PTB. Anything less is blind acceptance of the offical stories and in my mind the mark of one who is completely unwilling to question the status quo.

[edit on 1-2-2010 by Asktheanimals]



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by Asktheanimals
I seriously doubt anyone on ATS is a conspirator of any kind aside from surprise birthday parties


I seriously doubt anyone should be surprised when it's their birthday, much less a party if you have any social ties.

Ok, I'll admit it. One time I didn't know it was my birthday; I lost track of the days. It seemed like everyone was plotting for me behind my back.



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 07:36 PM
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just wanted to throw in a quick two cents

I don't often like the label conspiracy theorist
the name is changing

it now usually means someone or group of people who just simply chose to think for themselves.

that's the new definition is it not?



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 07:39 PM
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Originally posted by ModernAcademia
I don't often like the label conspiracy theorist
the name is changing

it now usually means someone or group of people who just simply chose to think for themselves.

that's the new definition is it not?


Unfortunately not.



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 07:53 PM
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A conspiracy theory is simply conjecture about what power a group or certain movers have. It's suspicion that's key. It may also just be a questioning of the official line of a story of events. In quite a few cases- conspiracy theories have evidence to back them up- in other cases, mega conspiracy theories have been shown to be a wrong way to analyze events and may be wrong, and when they're wrong we just have to move on.

A conspiracy fact is when a conspiracy theory has been proven true. Then it becomes an alternative fact- to be dismissed by official historians and to be downplayed in schools. Any mention of it is said to be revisionist history. Usually pro-state historians are unwilling to admit that the state has commited such acts of barbery that it did, so, it calls anyone critical of them a conspiracy theorist... and labels true facts conspiracy theories when in reality it just happens to be the truth.



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by Cadbury

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
I don't often like the label conspiracy theorist
the name is changing

it now usually means someone or group of people who just simply chose to think for themselves.

that's the new definition is it not?


Unfortunately not.


Exactly. How does funneling one's belief energetics into a particular subcultural cabal, concomitant with conformant social expectancy, amount to self-thinking rather than begetting copious effluvia?

[edit on 2/1/2010 by EnlightenUp]



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 08:10 PM
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Originally posted by Cadbury
It doesn't have to be just one or the other. It's both and everywhere in between. If you don't believe me, ask yourself. You're all doing my head in so much that I've come here to remind you about it.

Think!


Yes, that is it exactly, think.

Just because you cannot prove something, does not make it a "theory".

Just because you think you know it, does not make it a "fact".

The fact is that theory is theory until proven, and theory is fact, as yet unproven.



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Alright, so now that I am back from lunch, I can address this situation you've placed before me Spartan
.

I think the question you posed as I stated above is a bit of an oxymoron, reason being is that once something is proven to be truthful in regards to any conspiracy, it becomes history.


That or a sound byte.


Bush: "Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories..."



Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Conspiracy is something that is a theory in my mind, we talk about them here ofcourse and give our opinions and attempt to decipher the mountains of dis-information and factual evidence presented by various people, agencies and news outlets.

Once we as a community here at ATS come a concensus based on the factual evidence, and that the conspiracy theory is proven valid, I don't think we can classify it as a conspiracy, so long as the Powers That Be agree to the findings.

I would prefer to discuss theory myself, as fact is just too...factual
.


Yes, propaganda is used not only on our enemies, but on our own people.

By saying what I just said, I'm not assigning one country or another, but all of them.

Personally, I love discussing "conspiracy theory", but know there are facts within.

I often speak with people on ATS and wonder if they know the laws that were broken, in what they see as a "conspiracy theory", how a verbal agreement was more or less made to get around documented paperwork, or how laws are made so vague and innocuous, intentionally, so as to lend to a dispute of disagreement between interpretation and facts, causing further degradation between the "Official Story" and what we see as a "conspiracy".


Originally posted by tothetenthpower
I like it when there is room to speculate. It would usually provide a different avenue of thought, which then leads to more in depth reasearch of a particular topic from various different angles.

Much like analysing the MSM news sources, I like to go to every one of them, read the same stories, pick out the differences and then do my own research to figure out exactly what happened.

I may not come to the exact truth, but a better one than what is being presented as factual.

~Keeper


Of course, do not we all enjoy that, but I am sure that this is why there are many types, styles, and programs of propaganda.

I was taught to know that what is written is just as important as what is not written.

Read between the lines, and you will see a far different history than what is written.



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Conspiracy conjecture - I just don't like to think like other people because it makes me ordinary.

Conspiracy theory - I've got some documents from the internet.

Conspiracy fact - Hey, you're out of the closet.

Conspiracy factory - See Conspiracy conjecture.


Of course, if we were just like everyone else, either "Official Story" believers, or even the "Truther Movement", then this world would be a boring place.

Considering I've been learning about "conspiracy theories" since I was six, the last thirty years have been quite interesting, and I've moved past "theory".

I could teach on how to spot the lies, truths, and hidden agendas within Government.



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 08:32 PM
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Originally posted by concernedcitizan
Conspiracy thinking is dangerous because it does not correctly associate blame, and in doing so, has people fighting a chimera they can never defeat while ignoring real problems. It is a form of scapegoating, where we identify a conscious evil entity instead of the actual enemy, which is a system design that institutes radical evil, or the mundane form of accepted ways of doing things that produces negative results by its lack of realism.


I can concur with that logic to some extent seeing as I've chased after the "New World Order" for a very long time, only to conclude I was chasing and elusive ghost.

New World Order : There Is No Such Thing, Architect's of Lies, They Created A Phantom Menace

I am now however writing a book about that ghost and the very real threat it poses.


Originally posted by concernedcitizan
Common conspiracy targets are the military-industrial complex, "The Jew," the Masons, the Media, the Christian right, multinational corporations, and so on. These are more correctly referred to as "lobbies," or those who influence politics indirectly with money and favors and mass mobilization through media, and when they are successful as "oligarchs," or those who manipulate from behind the scenes with money and power and social influence. However, lobbies and oligarchs did not create the system as it is, nor do they control it, although they have power in it and profit from it. They are symptoms and not the disease. The disease is a bad social design that allows such things to happen.


Personally, I see those in power as knowing the system better than us, and knowing how to manipulate it to their advantage.

It is not so much the system that is the failure, although it is broken and fractured, but our own lack of knowing how to use that system to our advantage.

Which is why I encourage people not to pick up guns, C-4, and a noose for Government.

But an election ballot, paperwork to get into politics, and documentation to start a non-profit, policy think-tank, and begin talking up a storm with their local neighorhoods.


Originally posted by concernedcitizan
It is beyond doubt that lobbies and oligarchs create damage and perpetuate the decline of a system, but it is a mistake to assign to them a shadowy role of controlling it or creating it, because one will be then fighting the lobby or oligarch -- which is one of many such entities -- and not focusing on fixing the system itself. Conspiracy thinking engenders a negative psychology of paranoia and symbolic thinking instead of directing the user toward a realism in which the social design is corrupt and can be fixed, and that fix will in itself eliminate the power of all lobbies and oligarchs, actually resolving the problem.


I beat my own paranois many times over and now I am not afraid of anything.

So, in essence I defeated the "New World Order", through killing my own paranoia.

Symbolical, yes, but much more powerful, because now I am really fighting, politically.


Originally posted by concernedcitizan
Most who subscribe to conspiracy thinking do so from the following psychological pragma: because X group is in control, and X group can never be beaten, there is nothing I can do of substance, therefore I will grumble and groan but I will not take practical action, because if I do so, X group will eliminate me. Conspiracy thinking is not only illogical, but it is a shallow psychological justification for inaction


Complaining, whining, and bitching will do nothing, other than waste energy, time, and money.





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