9/11 facts - weigh in - OS VS others

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
This is a strawman argument. Unless you can prove me wrong, serial numbers would be thoroughly worthless to you becuase you have no ability to verify them as being either legitimate or fake.

But i would be able to tell if they were legit from an officil report.

Please look at numbr 2 and 3 of the following NTSB handbook, you will see that part and serial numbers are required.

www.ntsb.gov...
Recorder information shall be sent/emailed to the Chief of the Vehicle Recorder
Division and the FDR specialist, as soon as possible. This information can be obtained
from the airline and/or the airframe manufacturer. Specifically, the following
information is required to facilitate data readout:

! FDR manufacturer/model (Fairchild, Sundstrand, Allied Signal, L3, etc)
! FDR Part number and Serial Number
! FDAU (flight data acquisition unit) manufacturer/model and part number
! Parameters recorded
! Word(s) and bit location(s) of each parameter
! Conversion algorithm for each parameter
! Parameter range
! Original owner/upgraded retrofit history
! Airline, recorder maintenance/readout facility contact phone number.

You asked for evidence of a 757 passenger jet hitting the Pentagoon and I gave you an article containing photos of wreckage found at the Pentagon site as well as an aerospace organization's professional analysis of the photos.

That is not real evidnece, show me official FBI reports. Show me actual photos with sources matching parts to planes.

BTW why is it relevent that the FBI and the NTSB were the investigating bodies?

Because thier reports are the only ones that are official, they are the only official invesitgating agencies.

reply to post by REMISNE


Says who?

Originally posted by hooper
Says who?

What are you taklking about ????????????

Originally posted by REMISNE

Originally posted by hooper
Says who?

What are you taklking about ????????????

Statement retracted.

Originally posted by hooper
Statement retracted.

Oh by the way, stiil waiting for evidence of flight 93 remains being stored.

Originally posted by REMISNE

Originally posted by hooper
Statement retracted.

Oh by the way, stiil waiting for evidence of flight 93 remains being stored.

Why? Can't you get on google?

www.youtube.com...

I know you guys swear that everything on Youtube is the word of God, so here ya go.

Originally posted by hooper
I know you guys swear that everything on Youtube is the word of God, so here ya go.

I very rarely use youtube.

Still no real evidence. Where are all the photos of the remains at the crashe site and the remains being transported and stored.

Also why are the remains being stored at a top secret bunker and not being reconstrctued for the criminal investigation?

Originally posted by REMISNE

Originally posted by hooper
I know you guys swear that everything on Youtube is the word of God, so here ya go.

I very rarely use youtube.

Still no real evidence. Where are all the photos of the remains at the crashe site and the remains being transported and stored.

Also why are the remains being stored at a top secret bunker and not being reconstrctued for the criminal investigation?

Why do you call it a "top secret' bunker considering you just saw it on Youtube and it is owned by (I believe) by a publically traded company? Secure, yes, but "top secret" - hardly.

Why would you reconstruct the remains for a criminal investigation of a hijacking? Really? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If they reconstructed the remains and found, for instance, one of the stabilizers was worn would that then preclude the plane from being hijacked? The plane was hijacked, not sabotaged.

As for the photos of the remains at the site - you already know why they aren't released, besides, with your history of creeping goal posts - why bother? If they showed you 6 photos of the remains at the site being handled then you would come back with "well that's not ALL of the remains". You've well established that you can not be satisfied. So do not be suprised that people don't take you seriously.

reply to post by REMISNE

why are the remains being stored ... and not being reconstrctued for the criminal investigation?

To what purpose???

All that was useful, for the criminal trial, was used. The CVR and FDR are the two most important bits, from UAL 93.

I can only imagine how, IF the FDRs from AAL 11 and UAL 175 had survived and been recoverable from the WTC debris, the "TM" would have dealt with THAT data??? More claims of "fakery"???


Then, there is this from your post:

...stored at a top secret bunker...

Not exactly "top secret" is it mate???

Originally posted by weedwhacker
All that was useful, for the criminal trial, was used. The CVR and FDR are the two most important bits, from UAL 93.

You do know that UAL 93 is a criminal investigation? A reconstruction should be done for the investigation.

I can only imagine how, IF the FDRs from AAL 11 and UAL 175 had survived and been recoverable from the WTC debris, the "TM" would have dealt with THAT data??? More claims of "fakery"???

You still cannot accept that i have proven that the FDRs would not be accepted in court as evidence?

Not exactly "top secret" is it mate???

Do they store top secret material, YES or NO?

reply to post by REMISNE

You do know that UAL 93 is a criminal investigation? A reconstruction should be done for the investigation.

Why??

A 'reconstruction' of a million little bits of debris???

WHY?

What would that 'reveal', that isn't already recorded on the FDR and CVR?

reply to post by REMISNE

You still cannot accept that i have proven that the FDRs would not be accepted in court as evidence?

No.

I must have missed your "proof".

Please show your work.

BTW, you may wish to look iinto a LOT of conventional airliner crashes, and how FDR data was sued in the inevitable lawsuits that followed....

Originally posted by hooper
Why do you call it a "top secret' bunker considering you just saw it on Youtube [/quote]

Are you really that immature?

The bunker stores top secret material.

Why would you reconstruct the remains for a criminal investigation of a hijacking?

Becasue it is a criminal investigation, everything must be investigated.

As for the photos of the remains at the site - you already know why they aren't released

So you finally admit you havae no evidence of UAL 93 at the crash site?



[edit on 23-2-2010 by REMISNE]

reply to post by REMISNE

Do they store top secret material, YES or NO?

Did you watch the same video that I did???

The EXISTANCE of "Iron Montain" is not 'top secret', and that was my point....please stop parsing, just for the sake of whatever you are trying to do, here.

JUST AS.....the existance of a Citibank, or a Swiss bank, where YOU, as a customer, deposit items that you wish to be safe and preserved, but it is ONLY KN OWN TO YOU!!! Well, then it is a secret, to YOU!

That was the point of "Iron Mountain"....it is a repository, and some customers choose to be secret about WHAT they deposit, there....

Just as YOU can rent a safety deposit box at Bank of America (or wherever) and what YOU put in there is up to YOU!!! AND no one (barring a court order) has the right to know whgat is there, unless YOU authorize it.

this is so basic, I am sorry I had to write it out, in explanation......

Originally posted by weedwhacker
I must have missed your "proof".

Please show your work.

According to the NTSB handbook part and serial numbers are required for investigation. As you know th part and serial numbers have not been released for the FDRs or parts for any of the planes.

I suggest you look at the second and third item on the list below.

www.ntsb.gov...
3.4. Recorder information shall be sent/emailed to the Chief of the Vehicle RecorderDivision and the FDR specialist, as soon as possible. This information can be obtained from the airline and/or the airframe manufacturer. Specifically, the following information is required to facilitate data readout:

! FDR manufacturer/model (Fairchild, Sundstrand, Allied Signal, L3, etc)
! FDR Part number and Serial Number
! FDAU (flight data acquisition unit) manufacturer/model and part number
! Parameters recorded
! Word(s) and bit location(s) of each parameter
! Conversion algorithm for each parameter
! Parameter range
! Original owner/upgraded retrofit history
! Airline, recorder maintenance/readout facility contact phone number.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
The EXISTANCE of "Iron Montain" is not 'top secret', and that was my point....please stop parsing, just for the sake of whatever you are trying to do, here.

I never stated the existance was top secret, only that it stores top secret material.

reply to post by REMISNE


You keep going on about this same old, tired argument?

Sheesh????

You even repeat the same flap about "part numbers"!!

The "part numbers" are well-known....I gave you a link, either here, or another thread, just to ONE component, the AAL 77 CVR (damaged, and unreadable sadly).

You're supposed to understand, based on your stated experience, the difference between a "part number" and a specific 'serial number', for any component, or built-up assembly, right?

Let's look at any machine that we humans have built, in the modern era.

I'll use this laptop computer that I'm typing on, as an example. Now, I know very little about what goes into building/designing a computer, but I have a basic knowledge.

I know that the PART that is the piece that, say, provides the battery contacts will have a PART NUMBER....but it certainly would not need a S/N.

S/Ns are only required on parts, or components, that need to be 'tracked', per federal (or ICAO) regulatory requirements, and I'm discussing, now, AVIATION regulatory requirements....of which there are MANY!

Back to a modern passenger jet airplane....

I hope everyone can understand that not EVERY piece (PART) on EVERY airplane has a unique Serial Number? It just is NOT the case.

We are talking about the FDR and CVR, though....

...what you need to do is follow the PAPER TRAIL!!!!

Airliners do not undergo maintenance procedures willy-nilly....everything done is documented, and recorded, and MUST be made available, when requested by FAA, for inspection (in the USA, for carriers doing business under the jurisdiction of FAA...similar procedures exist in different jurisdictions, Internationally, of course). AND for air carriers that wish to operate WITHIN the USA!!!

Please look up "ICAO" for further reference.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
You keep going on about this same old, tired argument?

Its very plain and simple, even a pilot should be able to understand. As you can see as stated in the NTSB handbook part and serial numbers are required for an investigation.




[edit on 23-2-2010 by REMISNE]

reply to post by REMISNE

.....are required for an investigation.

And has been repeatedly repeated (is that redundantly redundant??) the NTSB Procedures Manual, in an "investigation" are/is designed for those investigations when the CAUSE of the accident are yet to be determined.

Usually, because the operators of whatever machine was being operated at the time, and the NTSB is investigating, are dead and cannot give testimony to the events that led up to the accident/crash.

It is ABOUT understanding what went wrong, in horrific crashes, where the people involved are not there to tell investigators what happened.

The NTSB investigates a LOT of public transport accidents/crashes, and in many cases the operators SURVIVE....but that doesn't usually make the headlines.

It is all about "de-constructing" the events, the Human factors, the "chain of events" leading up to the accident/crash.

Iin the case of 9/11, WE KNOW WHAT THE CHAIN IS!!!!!!

Terrorist hijackings!!!!

It's as if, for every suicide bomber in Iraq, YOU, Roger, would demand a full 'investigation' into every attack!!!!!

Most reasonalble adults understand, and can comprehend, when religious extremists (or just disgruntled crazy people....same thing, I guess) perform horrific acts of violence.....

Originally posted by weedwhacker

Iin the case of 9/11, WE KNOW WHAT THE CHAIN IS!!!!!!

Terrorist hijackings!!!!

Funny how you keep forgetting the fact that this is a criminal investigation, which simply means it does not mater what was known or suspected there still has to be an investigation.