Abortion musings

Well said, concerned citizen, however, I already touched on this thought process in my opening post.

"No doubt, life was difficult in the extreme for our forebears, yet out of love for life, zest of living, respect for life, they IMPROVED their conditions in order to OVERCOME the hardships of their life. By so doing, they improved the standard of living conditions for us all. They would doubtless scoff to hear this generation whining about the hardships of life while taking a frozen pizza out of the freezer, popping it in the microwave and setting down in front of the TV in an air-conditioned, electrically lighted house to eat it.

Our forebears invented these modern conveniences so that they, as well as their children (us), might enjoy life more fully. Yes, working in a field 12+ hours a day and raising 14 children led to an average lifespan of 40 years; however, we do not have that consideration, thanks to their life-affirming contributions. This generation, with it's drive-by shootings, et al, concedes by it's lifestyle that life is of no value (or little value) and so would rather destroy any potentially inconvenient lifeforms than overcome the hardships imposed by them."

Basically, how about we fix the problems rather than kill innocents in order to avoid the problems? One is a pro-active solution, the other is an avoidance technique born out of fear.

Originally posted by whitewave
Well said, concerned citizen, however, I already touched on this thought process in my opening post.

"No doubt, life was difficult in the extreme for our forebears, yet out of love for life, zest of living, respect for life, they IMPROVED their conditions in order to OVERCOME the hardships of their life. By so doing, they improved the standard of living conditions for us all. They would doubtless scoff to hear this generation whining about the hardships of life while taking a frozen pizza out of the freezer, popping it in the microwave and setting down in front of the TV in an air-conditioned, electrically lighted house to eat it.

Our forebears invented these modern conveniences so that they, as well as their children (us), might enjoy life more fully. Yes, working in a field 12+ hours a day and raising 14 children led to an average lifespan of 40 years; however, we do not have that consideration, thanks to their life-affirming contributions. This generation, with it's drive-by shootings, et al, concedes by it's lifestyle that life is of no value (or little value) and so would rather destroy any potentially inconvenient lifeforms than overcome the hardships imposed by them."

Basically, how about we fix the problems rather than kill innocents in order to avoid the problems? One is a pro-active solution, the other is an avoidance technique born out of fear.

So you are saying I should put my life in jeopardy, and I should bring another unwanted child into your world because it is so messed up, because it is such a hellish place- like that would fix it.
You are putting the egg before the chicken.

Fix your God forsaken planet and maybe I will bring a baby into this world...otherwise all mine go to heaven and you should be somewhat pleased that I did not wait for them to be born before killing them as so many other mothers are driven to do - Now we all support them in jaill...For what? So you can force your quaint moral agenda on them.
I was dumped by both parents and later adopted. Believe me...Not everyone is so thankful they were even born. You make the case yourself: Look what you have allowed miserable, unwanted children, do to this magnificent planet and great plan for life.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by conandtel


[*SNIP*]. This world cannot be improved by adding anything or anybody, only by removing what is diseased.



Mod Edit: Off topic content removed. Please Stay On Topic – Please Review Link.

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[edit on 2/6/2010 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by conandtelI bet since your a "women" that duty must fall to the man. Since you would be unable to have a baby, without a MANS sperm.

Now that is truly an excellent point and not at all unreasonable! Why on earth didn't you post links to inform men of their own options in regard to birth control? Things like male abstinence, condoms, the snip and the male pill? Promoting such things would indeed prevent the conception and therefore the abortion of countless babies!

[*SNIP*]

Mod Edit: Off topic content removed. Please Stay On Topic – Please Review Link.
Mod Note: Courtesy is Mandatory – Please Review Link.

[edit on 2/6/2010 by AshleyD]

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Originally posted by rusethorcain

So you are saying I should put my life in jeopardy, and I should bring another unwanted child into your world because it is so messed up, because it is such a hellish place- like that would fix it.
You are putting the egg before the chicken.

Fix your God forsaken planet and maybe I will bring a baby into this world...otherwise all mine go to heaven and you should be somewhat pleased that I did not wait for them to be born before killing them as so many other mothers are driven to do - Now we all support them in jaill...For what? So you can force your quaint moral agenda on them.
I was dumped by both parents and later adopted. Believe me...Not everyone is so thankful they were even born. You make the case yourself: Look what you have allowed miserable, unwanted children, do to this magnificent planet and great plan for life.

You say the world is a terrible place to raise a child? Nonsense. The world is a wonderful place-it's jut run by terrible people; mismanaged to a nearly irreparable state. This can be corrected by raising decent human beings with a life-affirming value system who can replace the death-fearing bums currently governing the planet.

What doesn't kill us makes us stronger. I'm truly saddened to hear of your unhappy childhood and that you are not thankful you were born. You do, apparently have the opportunity to do things you enjoy like have conversations on the internet. I trust that, in time, you will find the joy in your life.

I don't expect to change anyone's mind with my musings on this subject. I simply wanted to be able to give a voice to those whose silent screams are never heard.
Peace.

reply to post by whitewave


I appreciate your position but unlike you I do not view early termination as death of "a life" but the end of the possibility of a life.
There was a time when I said I believe abortion should be legal, even though I personally would never have one.
Sometimes there is no other choice. You or any man cannot know that because we do not share experiences or walk in each others shoes.
In a perfect world abortions would be few and a last resort.
How can this even have a hope of happening as long as there is sexualization of children coupled with no sex ed in schools, brief jail sentences for sex crimes and child abuse, prevalent advertising for Viagra type products coupled with an overriding message that using birth control is BAD? How can we curb unsolicited pregnancies when whole religions are teaching birth control is bad and it is the sex itself that should cease (this ain't gonna happen) so we are in a terrible cycle of birth and death and arguing over it all when simple steps could be taken to save these beginnings of life. Steps that we might try instead of effectively invading the woman's body to save what is inside her womb, without her consent.
I had a friend Jack with an old fashioned Irish mother. She loved Jack dearly and forbade he go to war. "Before I let you go to war - I will take you out back and shoot you myself." You may not understand that as even showing love for your child, but I do.
No one is pro abortion and I think many abuses concerning children are over looked while we fight over this amongst ourselves. You are a good person and I admire your convictions FOR YOURSELF. I do find it senseless that while your side kills doctors and terrorizes innocent girls and desperate women there are abductions, and child trafficking and abuses we could join forces and tackle much better together.

Originally posted by rusethorcain
reply to post by whitewave

 

I appreciate your position but unlike you I do not view early termination as death of "a life" but the end of the possibility of a life.

Yes, I've heard the "parasite" argument before and find it deeply disrespectful of life. Active intervention is required to stop the "potential" from actualizing. Birth control is a passive resistance that prevents the need for active euthanasia.

There was a time when I said I believe abortion should be legal, even though I personally would never have one.

I understand and respect your feelings on the matter but I find the logic to be confusing. You personally would not kill but you think others should have the right to kill if they want/need to? I find that thinking to be akin to saying, "I personally wouldn't own a slave but won't stand in the way of anyone else who wants to own a slave for themselves." Or, "I personally don't want to lynch any blacks but if you feel that you have no other choice or that blacks are inconvenient to you, then I support your right to lynch blacks."

Sometimes there is no other choice.

True. If you value life you save what you can of it. If the mother's life is in mortal danger then she is the obvious choice to save. Fortunately, such life-boat ethics are seldom required.

You or any man cannot know that because we do not share experiences or walk in each others shoes.

I've never walked in a black man's shoes either but I'm fairly sure they don't want to be slaves or lynched. One doesn't need to go through every imaginable scenario that could ever possibly occur to know and understand that some things are wrong on principle. People encountering difficulties need our support but not at the expense of someone else's life.

In a perfect world abortions would be few and a last resort.
How can this even have a hope of happening as long as there is sexualization of children coupled with no sex ed in schools, brief jail sentences for sex crimes and child abuse, prevalent advertising for Viagra type products coupled with an overriding message that using birth control is BAD?

I agree that we can not hope to deal with the symptoms of the problem without first recognizing and addressing the source of the problems. There IS sex education in school but it's politicized. In fact, I was told by my son's teacher that the word "AIDS" is not allowed to be mentioned during sex education class! I'm thinking that sort of nonsense needs to stop.

How can we curb unsolicited pregnancies when whole religions are teaching birth control is bad and it is the sex itself that should cease (this ain't gonna happen) so we are in a terrible cycle of birth and death and arguing over it all when simple steps could be taken to save these beginnings of life.

On this point we are in total agreement. I am very much a proponent of birth control. I think Catholics are the only ones encouraged to breed and ignore birth control. Having been raised Catholic, I know quite a few Catholics. Not one of them, male or female, pays any attention to that part of their religion and they practice birth control anyway.

I had a friend Jack with an old fashioned Irish mother. She loved Jack dearly and forbade he go to war. "Before I let you go to war - I will take you out back and shoot you myself." You may not understand that as even showing love for your child, but I do.

In your example (which I can neither condone nor condemn), the mother is adamant to SAVE the life of her child by all means necessary.

No one is pro abortion

I strongly disagree. In fact, I think it has become such a polarized topic that politicians must "prove" themselves by submitting to the all important question of where they stand on the issue of abortion. It's like "try-outs" for football. You pass and can be part of the political team if you are in favor of abortion.

and I think many abuses concerning children are over looked while we fight over this amongst ourselves.

I don't see any reason why we can't deal with both issues. It's not an either-or situation. We cry about the poor innocent children being killed on a daily basis in wars then slaughter our own with never a moment's consideration. I'm sure there are women (and men) who agonize over such painful decisions and perhaps feel guilt or remorse for their actions. It is not our place to condemn these self-tortured souls but to educate them so that they are never again in a position to choose death rather than life.

You are a good person and I admire your convictions FOR YOURSELF.

This nation is based on laws that were based on an agreed upon set of personal convictions. The very first guaranteed right acknowledged by our law of the land (the Constitution) is the right to life.

I do find it senseless that while your side kills doctors and terrorizes innocent girls and desperate women there are abductions, and child trafficking and abuses we could join forces and tackle much better together.


While I in no way condone the murderous actions of those who kill abortionists, I find it ironic that it so mimics your story of Jack and his mother; the one you considered an act of love. I stand with you in your worthy goal of eradicating child abuses and child trafficking along with all the rest. Peace.

reply to post by whitewave


reply to post by whitewave


It is not a parasite. It is a piece of me, the cells of me and my lover or my rapist joined as one and it does not belong to you until it is born and can breath on it's own as slaves can.

Peace to you also but we will always disagree on when life begins. It is not as soon as a sperm cell is introduced to an egg.

I think the human "soul" the only part of life that matters...(no? then why do we kill helpless animals?- no souls) is introduced to the human form only when God knows the birth will survive full term and have a chance to live. Otherwise why bother and what power can God have if He allows all this death? I say it begins when the life is able to leave my body on it's own.

If owning the slave would give him a minimum acceptable quality of life he would otherwise not have I would reluctantly but quickly "own a slave"

I did not ask to be in control of life or death on this planet but I guess I am. Sorry that irks you. Sorry God put it in the hands of the women in whose bodies these sperm/egg unions of incomplete humans are housed- but that is the way it is whether you like it or not.

Do you think the results of incest should be born? Should the victim that is a child herself be made to be humiliated and suffer more? Should she risk her young life, her reputation her chance at a normal life for herself by giving birth to, what by all accounts will be an abomination thus proving this should not in nature be done? Do you have to be beaten over the head with psychopaths or those with mental disorders and cleft lips to know this should not be allowed to happen?
Do you have to venture into the desolate south or middletown America, or open your eyes a little wider, or read that which is distasteful, unpleasant and outside the realm of your understanding or comprehension to know that "unholy" unions resulting in pregnancy happen. When a crime can be stopped mid-stream why should it not. The girls is innocent and she is the life you should protect. She is the life you abandon in your thinking. She has no rights at all in your superior elitist stance.

reply to post by whitewave


It is impossibly cruel and you throw her living breathing, thinking, loving, hoping, dreaming body under the bus to save an unformed "life" the very definition of which is in question, a life that has not yet begun.
________________________________________________________

Now I know you will think I am crazy but then you already do so although I have up to now hesitated to address this I will go on to further suggest:

Unwittingly you maintain an even worse atrocity.

I believe your very argument was created and deliberately introduced by an evil controlling source, to carry out an even darker unspeakable and hidden, horror.

The agenda you innocently and with all good intentions perpetuate is to breed expendable lives to be used as soldiers, harvesters, low grade workers, subjects and slaves, no matter what the cost to the planet. Additionally and even more horrifically the agenda is to maintain a constant supply of fresh young, unwanted, unnamed children to be sacrificed and used for sexual or other nefarious purposes.
Explain to me the insane numbers of missing and exploited children? These are not parents taking their own kids. No one even looks for them whereas if they were adults we would sit up and take notice.
People think they are a misprint whenever I bring the incredible numbers to peoples attention. How can these children simply vanish?
Recognize that something worse is going on.
What do you think those Baptist "missionaries" without either experience or honest actions were planning to do with those 31 Haitian children?
$10,000 apiece.
Just like heroin, porn, money and drugs -fresh smelling young children are "addictive" to the predator and the exploiter. There is a market for these young bodies, an unquenchable thirst, an unstoppable desire and an underworld trafficking operation so huge you will poo poo the possibility and deny their existence to your grave. And this is how they (evil beyond all comprehension) prosper and continue dealing in their stock and trade. Because it is so unbelievable.

It was initially difficult for me to believe as well but over the years I have seen many, many indicators that point to this Illuminati or saboteurs agenda. I've begun threads on it. The Franklin Scandal gives you a glimpse into this nefarious underworld and their activities taking place just under the radar and often in plain sight.
As well as the purely hedonistic sex trip, or feeding on fear, it appears the "reptilian agenda", perpetuated by the monarchy and the church, is also to overpopulate this planet so that it can no longer sustain human life. Reptiles don't mind the heat.

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

I know. Unbelievable. Imagine humans descending from warm blooded mammals, but also from cold blooded reptilian lines. Crocodile tears, (for example those shed by Limbaugh Palin and Beck) are designed to fool you into believing there is some underlying emotional compassion - where there is none.
Humans have traits according to their DNA source and in my experience, it is not always warm and fuzzy nor does it always even seem to be mammalian.

And no, this is not my "handy excuse" to allow early terminations. It is the sad reality I wish were not true or even possible but that I have come to witness with my own eyes, and I have got to believe what I see.










[edit on 8-2-2010 by rusethorcain]

You obviously feel very passionately about this subject and it is not my intention to "convert" you. I simply see no point or logic in committing a second crime to cover up the original crime.

Human beings are comprised of DNA which begins to form and multiply at the moment of conception. The baby's heart is beating (detectably) at 5 weeks, yet we still allow the stopping of that beating heart for at least another 7 weeks.

I would hope that people don't kill animals just because they're helpless. I kill to eat only when I'm hungry and respect the animal enough to become a proficient shot so that it doesn't suffer needlessly to satisfy my appetite.

I am familiar with the statistics on missing and exploited children. It's horrific as you say. There are a lot of parents who wanted and chose to have their children who don't watch them very closely. My opinions as to what should occur with child-molesters is not printable or allowed on this site.
Wars should be outlawed globally and those with an agenda who feel strongly enough to want to kill their fellow man to prove their point should have a boxing match or something and leave the rest of us out of it. I detest the idea of sending our sons, brothers, husbands and friends to go fight in some corporate hostile take-over which is what all these stupid wars are.

I do not need to venture into middle America since I live here and have traveled extensively across this great land to know that inbreeding is not limited to corn-pone bible thumpers.

As far as reptilian/mammalian hybrids.....I have no comment.

These are my musings on abortion. Although I have more I could add, I respectfully withdraw to prevent contention and hard feelings and will continue behind the scenes to see Roe vs. Wade overturned as well as all the other unconstitutional laws currently being passed.

reply to post by rusethorcain


From a young age, children's mind are governed into conformity particularly through television and the education system. Many people later acknowledge current society is on a track to derailment, but often can't quite put their finger on why as escaping a mindset fostered since birth is difficult, thus they learn to tolerate it. Through egalitarian dogma spread via mass media and laws protecting the stupid and elevating their social status and rights to equal all, adolescents becoming adults are taught to accept dysfunction and the insane pretenses given to the notions of what is good/evil and right/wrong. This is quite an unnatural process for many, and coming into maturity seemingly means to squelch the inner child that screams 'this is #%$@ed', and prepare for four decades of sitting behind a desk or cash register. For the intelligent/aware, depression is extraneous as they realise society isn't made for them. Crowd logic doesn't recognize symptoms of degeneracy, and will drown out any voice that sings a different song: higher intelligence isn't welcome

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
reply to post by Oceanborn

 

Actually, abortion IS all about my body. It is only about the choice I have to make, whether to allow the parasitic cells that cannot survive outside its host (me), to grow into a viable human being, or to abort the growth of those cells before they can leach any more life from the host, my body.

What does a man's view have to do with this decision? Nothing, because once the man removes his member from the host body, his involvement is complete, and anything else that occurs in relation to the sex act fall squarely and singularly onto the female's shoulders.

If a woman shares her pregnancy with her man, that still falls under....her choice.

Hotbakedtater,

This is deep ..very deep. Thank you for enlightening me as to the status quo on this.

There is a single woman with two kids down the street from me. She is very fast food lane..and from a distance appears to be high maintenance.

Three times now she has been down here looking to be "Flash Danced" through her automobile problems either by my knowledge, labor, or me giving her a ride to solve her and the children's problems.

I decided long ago not to help her because it would become a career opportunity and all she has is her sexuality to offer. I am not interested in this from her..because I know the other end expenses/maintenance costs would be very high.

But thanks to you I now know that I can tell her ..it is my body...and my member is not in you..so I owe you no other considerations. Nor your children as well. I need to tell her that she and her children can grow in to a viable human being without my help, labor, or risks and not leeching/parasiting off me to get back in the fast food lane.

The important thing is to know that I am justified in not letting her or her children's parasitic cells to attach themselves to my skills, risks, labors...gratis.
Especially and particularly since I don't have my member in her body.
Good to know that a woman's and children's view has nothing to do with this...my body my labors and skills.

Very sophisticated of you to enlighten me in such a manner...thank you for this awakening. I am sure her and her children will be appreciative as well.

I don't have alot of respect for women or men who's main claim to fame or recognition is their sex, sexuality, or sexual orientation. One has to go to school to get this naturally dumb. People left to their own devices are not this naturally dumb.



For those of you not able to control your emotions sufficient to see the forest for the trees...

Abortion is about votes...about the women's vote. It is not about abortion per se. The body politic does not care one whit about the unborn..about the religious reasons for or against it. They only care about the votes..and particularly the votes in high electoral vote states that this issue will get them.
In high electoral vote states..women make up at least half of the voters and they control the spending of most of the monies on big ticket items. Hence women are the economic power in these states. Hence also the body politic understands that women are also the political power. It is to women that the body politic must appeal..for voting control and particularly for one political party.
What the body politic determined years ago ..is that it is the women's vote they needed to cultivate to keep and maintain power since women are the political/economic powerhouse in this nation..not the men.
Thus an issue was needed to galvanize women emotionally to guarantee how they would vote..particularly in presidential elections. This issue was to be women's sexuality and the venue chosen became abortion. This issue was custom tailored to women to guarantee their votes in elections ..and particularly presidential elections.

Abortion has become a sort of litmus test or a method of censoring others in the voting process. This became so blatant and obvious that one could not run for county dog catcher..without declaring ones stance on abortion. The controlling issue became..not if one was qualified or experienced enough for the office..but instead what was ones stance on abortion. In this manner abortion became a type of control or censorship of every office across the land.

Yet here so many of you spend your waking moments on this thread emotionally debating this placebo issue. Abortion is about votes..not about the emotional drama you folks assume.

There are three main issues which have become a type of emotional litmus test issue..to get votes ..and at the same time to censor competition.

These issues for control are abortion, race issues, and the homosexual movement.

These issues are all about Victimization...they heavily use guilt conditioning to promote the Victim Dictum. This is a sign that the same group of political engineers are running all of these groups from behind the scenes ...unseen...undetected by most.
All three of these issues are emotionally charged...and used to control/censor who gets into what office across this land.

That individual who asked the beauty contestant the question about marriage last year is textbook of this type of political control and censorship. It is a way of rigging a marketplace of ideas.
The problem is that some people are beginning to notice this control method and speak out...educate others as to how it works. The public is getting tired of it and beginning to speak out;.

We know this about Litmus test issues because they have this fingerprint/fingerprints.

1. They must be highly and emotionally charged issues in order to prevent the prey from catching on to the fact that they are being played. The more emotional the better.

2. They take heavy advantage of the Victim Dictum in order to promote "guilt conditioning" and conduct ..such that any competition backs off..and does not speak out.
Guilt conditioning and the Victim Dictum go hand in hand here as a control mechanism in the censorship. This was clear in the beauty contest last year.

3. These issues eventually, by popular cultivating of emotions and the Victim Dictum, become attached to the public purse strings.. Thus meaning they become fodder for votes...while neutering or neutralizing any competing ideas or opinions.

Environmental issues can also be attached to this litmus test list as they too fit the definitions 1 through 3 above..especially the part about attaching themselves to the public purse strings.

I see illegal aliens becoming another litmus test issue down the road..and on the public purse strings as well.


Well ...I hope some of you who can let go of your emotions long enough to see this template will begin to recognize it for what it is and by this ..also recognize the MSM and their hand in promoting it for the body politic.

Abortion is about the women's vote..nothing more. Particularly in high electoral vote states.

The body politic cares not one whit about public opinion on this issue...the Christians are so dumb and ignorant on this issue it is astonishing. They are approaching it from the wrong angle. Talk about a dumb group of people. What is equally astonishing is that their ministers do not teach this angle to them. They should....thus also meaning that the Christians are being played twice...once by politicians and once by their ministers.

Politics is selling, bartering, trading the very souls of the public...on issues such that they, the body politic, can operate..often unseen and unnoticed...as to what they are doing. The term for this among peoples who know..is Whoredom. Both dominant political parties are guilty of taking advantage of the public ignorance on this issue..abortion.
This is very telling about the political system in this country....once you know it for what it is.

Thanks,
Orangetom


[edit on 8-2-2010 by orangetom1999]

reply to post by orangetom1999


This is a whole lot of space to say almost nothing. I think you should just leave your neighbor alone and let her find a nice person to help her around the house. You seem to be reading way too much into what your neighbor "really" expects from you. Sometimes a woman just needs a little help putting up her security lights.

You should keep all your tools in the box.

Just one thought, if abortion is ok, then why do we value our own lives?
If the termination of a potential life in the womb is ok then surely all life is devalued?
Dop unto others? na ...thats only for those not aborted.

Just one thought, if abortion is ok, then why do we value our own lives?
If the termination of a potential life in the womb is ok then surely all life is devalued?
Dop unto others? na ...thats only for those not aborted.

Originally posted by rusethorcain
reply to post by orangetom1999

 

This is a whole lot of space to say almost nothing. I think you should just leave your neighbor alone and let her find a nice person to help her around the house. You seem to be reading way too much into what your neighbor "really" expects from you. Sometimes a woman just needs a little help putting up her security lights.

You should keep all your tools in the box.

rusethorcain,

You bring up a good point and in a more readers digest format than myself.

She should keep all her tools in the box ..including her kids.
I am not liable or accountable for her security lights or anything else.
I'm not in the "flashdancing" buisness. Nor should I run touchdowns for someone else. I dont even watch sports.
After all..as Hotbakedtater declares in all her glory....Its my body.

Thanks for condensing it down for me. I appreciate it.

Orangetom

Originally posted by Dr Conspire
Just one thought, if abortion is ok, then why do we value our own lives?
If the termination of a potential life in the womb is ok then surely all life is devalued?
Dop unto others? na ...thats only for those not aborted.

How can you say life is devalued? Don't you watch the news? Reality shows?
A gun can take a life in a second and yet we protect guns don't we?

Of course life here on earth is devalued. This is why I will not bring another into this f'd up world.
You say it is abortion devaluing life, I say it is guns.

reply to post by orangetom1999


Sure no problem. Don't help anybody and one day when you need help you will stand alone and wonder where it is - and then you can remember all those little things you were able to but refused to do for others.

Karma my friend. You don't get what you don't give.

Good luck with that.