Abortion musings

Why,exactly, do we place such an emphasis on every single piece of human life, especially in those that contribute nothing and yet act as the greatest weights on society. We live within a vast structure that repeatedly puts forth new concepts and ideas, slowly shaping and rewarding those that adapt and grow while discarding any that are flawed. Individual animals that are weak or defective are usually hunted down first. Yet humans in this age have attempted to remove this basic mechanism within the structure, living within the safe confines of their cities and preserving every life no matter the cost. In this propensity to preserve life, the natural struggle to grow is neglected as we uphold the failures and drag those of excellence down. Notions of equality ultimately lead to a sacrifice in human quality for quantity, as societies must operate according to the lowest common denominator

...disinfo - abortion is used as a contraceptive...
...fact - abortion is an option for lack of contraceptive...

...disinfo - abortion has become a form of birth control...
...fact - abortion HAS ALWAYS BEEN about birth control... its not something new - its ancient...

...disinfo - a 21-22 week old fetus is viable...
...fact - the survival rate is very low, 25% or so, and the medical intervention teeters precariously on inhumane...

...disinfo - a female who has an abortion is forever pyschologically damaged...
...fact - some do have issues, some dont... of those that do, there has never been a study that proves their issues stem ONLY from abortion or that issues due to abortion are life-long horrific baggage...

...opinion - if abortion isnt right for you, dont have one - so simple, for people who can mind their own biz...

Some of the opinions professed in this thread border on sexist. I understand they are opinions, but do people really think that men should have no say in their own children? That they are, more or less, simply walking sperm banks? That's an extremely harsh view of humanity in general, and men specifically. I have known some true dogs in my time, some men that could more aptly be called 'boys' for lack of maturity, and with whom I actually felt embarrassed to call them friends. But not every guy is like that, as a matter of fact, I would say that the 'men are pigs' stereotype doesn't apply quite as well as it once did. To imply that men are solely responsible for contraception is a fallacy as well, both parties should be equally responsible, as both have options when it comes to birth control. I never understood the thinking that said that it was one party, or the others sole responsibility, that's just silly. I have to agree with one mention that men should get a vasectomy, but only certain men. We all know that there is a very real percentage of men who don't want kids, and never will. They should therefor choose to remove themselves from the gene pool. But on the flip side, there are quite a few ladies out there who fit that profile as well, make no mistake, and they too should go under the knife and take care of business. I don't quite get why people can't be a bit more mature, and treat sex and their lives a bit more seriously.

Chrono

reply to post by Wyn Hawks

...disinfo - a 21-22 week old fetus is viable... ...fact - the survival rate is very low, 25% or so, and the medical intervention teeters precariously on inhumane...

WRONG
I was able to receive steroid shots 2 weeks prior to my daughters birth raising her survival rate to 90% from the normal 60% I spent months in the NICU saw many babies come in and out. The technology is amazing and far from inhumane. Yes the gastric tubes for feeding can make a mother cringe, and the heel pricks for blood just like they do on all babies, but that's the worst of it. I practically lived in a LVL III NICU after my daughters birth and never saw one baby pass away from being born premature.

Originally posted by habfan1968

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
My opinion on abortion is quite simple. So this won't be a very long response.

One, it is always a woman's choice. My body, MY CHOICE.

Two, because men cannot give birth and can never be in the position to need an abortion, the opinion of men on abortion to me(as a female) is moot.

But it does take two to tango so to speak. The male perspective is not moot. As a female, you chose the who, how and when of copulation and therefore are aware of the implications of pregnancy. Other than extreme circumstances there is no valid reason for an abortion.

Does being lazy and stupid count as a reason? My wife and I were together 5 years before we decided to have a kid. Then we had a kid. Its really not that hard. Kids are more like animals nowadays.

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
My opinion on abortion is quite simple. So this won't be a very long response.

One, it is always a woman's choice. My body, MY CHOICE.

Two, because men cannot give birth and can never be in the position to need an abortion, the opinion of men on abortion to me(as a female) is moot.

Wow... so even though it's the man's child that you're pregnant with (speaking hypothetically, of course), his opinion on whether you terminate it is "moot"? That's really, really cold. I'm not saying that a man should have any legal right to tell a woman to have or not have an abortion, but his opinion as the father of said child should be taken into consideration by the mother. To act as though his wishes and opinion would mean absolutely nothing is arrogant.

If you make the decision to have unprotected sex with a man despite the risks of becoming pregnant, then you need to recognize that it is not just your child. Just because you are carrying it does not mean that you have 100% control over it. You may legally have control, but morally, you do not.

For the record, I am pro-choice. While I am personally against abortion, I still support a woman's right to make that choice, especially in the cases of rape, incest, or when the mother's life is at risk. My problem with abortion is when certain women begin to use it as a form of birth control and end up having multiple abortions rather than use protection and exercise caution.

But back to the topic... I think it's kind of hypocritical for a woman to say that the father of the child has absolutely no say in whether or not it is terminated, but should the child be born, she fully expects the father to support her and the child financially. To me, you can't have it both ways. Having a child is a partnership just as raising one is. And simply carrying the child, despite the hardship that women endure for 9+ months, should not give them dictatorial power over that unborn child's life. Again, I am not saying that a father should have a legal right to prevent a woman from aborting his child. I am just saying that a woman should take his feelings into consideration when making such a decision. If she doesn't feel obligated to do so, then she shouldn't have reproduced with him in the first place.

reply to post by Rasputin13


Women do not have it both ways (thank you for being hypothetical, some posters here do not understand how to debate topics, and only want to debate persons)and are NOT hypocrits at all.

We have other choices available to us that men do not have regarding pregnancy. Men know abortion is an option before they spill seed. If they do not know the way their woman feels regarding pregnancy and abortion, why are the men having sex in the first place?

There fore, to me, any man AGAINST abortion is NEVER having sex with those vile females who might abort his seed, am I correct in my assumption?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic


If the woman wants the input of the father, then certainly, he CAN have a say, but the final decision is the woman's. I don't believe the man has, or should have, any legal claim. He made his choice to give up his "say" when he deposited his seed.

There is something a lot of people are not bringing to this conversation.

If a woman gets pregnant and wishes to abort the child, the father has NO rights.

Now if the woman decides to have the child, the father still has no rights. He is not allowed to say that he wants nothing to do with the child. The mother can make him pay child support.

SO HE STILL HAS NO RIGHTS.

This argument here should be used in a child support case and the whole abortion argument will hit a new problem.

EQUAL UNDER THE LAW

NOW it is some are more equal then others.



[edit on 1/30/2010 by endisnighe]

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Sorry, I think rasputin pointed out the VERY same thing I have.

If a woman can freely abort a child without the father's permission, the father should have the say NOT to be financially responsible.

It is called, EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW!

That is a basic tenant of law.

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

Sorry, I think rasputin pointed out the VERY same thing I have.

If a woman can freely abort a child without the father's permission, the father should have the say NOT to be financially responsible.

It is called, EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW!

That is a basic tenant of law.

But yall logic is not correct. If a woman chooses abortion, I fully agree, the man has no obligation to pay for it. No financial obligation to abortion.

But as he spilled his seed, he therefore made the last CHOICE available to him, (and I assume he knows the lady he is copulating with, and her opinion on abortion before he has sex with her) which is whether to spill seed in side her body or not.

How difficult is that to understand? Men and women are not equal in reproduction,(were they equal we would all be one gender huh) in this case they have different avenues available to them.

If a woman gives birth, then of course a man has to pay child support (it always comes down to money with some men, ALWAYS).

Just like when a woman gives birth she has to raise and support the kid, that is how it works.

Men KNOW what outcomes there are to unprotected sex, and what options the lady has available.

To cry about equality if your woman gives birth is laughable. That sounds like a typical man response, oh I dont want to pay child support.

(CS has nothing to do with abortion, but I argued the straw man point anyway.)

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

Sorry, I think rasputin pointed out the VERY same thing I have.

If a woman can freely abort a child without the father's permission, the father should have the say NOT to be financially responsible.

What? So if she falls pregnant and he orders her to abort.. and she refuses you think he should be able to turn around and leave her in the lurch facing a life of single motherhood and poverty without any financial support? Nice.

So of course faced with this hopeless situation/(ahem. blackmail) alot of women would relent and reluctently "choose" to abort.. facing grief, guilt trauma and judgmental lunatic protestors calling them murderers while would be coersive fathers are viewed as innocent victims of these slutty she devils who were trying to trap them into being meal tickets or something.

Thats not really a choice is it? Thats bullying someone into doing something they really don't want to do.

..or there must be alot of women raping men in their sleep or stealing their sperm from used condoms.

The other extreme is a woman refusing to continue a pregnancy. So what do you suggest.. women get imprisoned for the duration of their pregnancy? Tied down? Hang on.. isn't that against the christian ideal of free will? or doesn't that apply to pregnant women? The bible doesn't mention pregnant women not having free will (though I don't think anyone really asked Mary if she minded being pregnant with Jesus.. ). In fact free will is how it all started.. it's is the basis of judeo-chritian religions. No-one forced adam to bite the apple.. he did that all on his own yet Eve is blamed. Women do not usually force men into getting them pregnant so why are some men acting like they are victims of some great feminist conspiracy?

The most disturbing thing I saw in your post was this line:

If a woman can freely abort a child without the father's permission,

Permission..? Sorry but when a woman gets pregnant the man's sperm is not a deed of ownership to her body so she needn't ask him permission to do anything.

Obviously I am pro choice.. staunchly so. If a woman wants to continue a pregnancy she shouldnt have people bullying her into aborting. If a woman wants to abort she should be able to make that choice without being bullied. When I see these dicussions it's always pregnant women in tug of wars being spoken of like they are mindless expendable cattle where when the FACT is if pregnant women were given the support they needed in the first place there would be less abortions. Why aren't pregnant women getting the support they need?

"Can't hold out your hand while you're pointing the finger."

Btw. I do think men should have a say.. but that would happen naturally in a healthy relationship. Having a say should not be over-ruling the woman's choice.

[edit on 30-1-2010 by riley]

reply to post by NOTHING 4 NO ONE


Is the world lacking another hundred million people at the moment? Is there a shortage of books, songs, movies, porcelain dogs, vases? Are one billion embodiments of motherly love and one billion sweet silver-haired grandmothers not enough?

reply to post by hotbakedtater


so you're saying we all started out as parasites, including you...I wonder what your parents think about that...

edit for spelling



[edit on 30-1-2010 by winotka]

reply to post by riley


I did not once state the father has in any way, have the right to say whether or not the child should be born.

I am also pro-choice, but I myself would never want to abort a child. No one can or should try to force their morals upon another.

What I AM POINTING out is the FACT that the father has no say in the choice of abortion, but then he can be forced to pay support for the child.

Equal under the LAW!

Argument complete. You cannot have unequal under the LAW or where does it stop?

reply to post by kiwifoot


Yes, abortion is a personal choice. It is also the law of the land that a woman can have a legal abortion. Those who say there is no valid reason for abortions simply don't understand. If they have not been in a position to need one, they will never understand. Is it ignorance? I don't think so. I think it is a situation whereby if have never experienced such a decision, they cannot possibly understand. Abortion is a gut wrenching decision and experience. Certainly there are those who abuse the law. This is true not only for abortions. But, for the majority of women, abortion is serious business. There are physical, emotional and financial reasons behind abortions, and until you have experienced any of these to the pont of despair, you cannot understand, nor should anyone judge these women's decisions. One never knows what tomorrow may bring you.

reply to post by arbiture


That woman did not get pregnant on her own. While she claims "God" got her pregnant, I happen to believe it was Jospeh. They didn't want to get stoned to death, so they came up with a wild story.

Originally posted by Doctor G

On the form for Life insurance & for Health insurance besides "do you smoke" is "have you had an abortion". They don't ask if you have had a miscarriage because that is the body taking an action. They put all your answers in a table & get an answer. They can void your insurance for giving false answers.

You pay extra for insurance if you smoke or have had an abortion because those actions cause harm to the body in a calculable way. They charge a higher premium and have never been stopped by anyone for charging this higher premium. They can prove it from their tables.

Illegal coat hanger abortions cause harm to the body in a calculable way. They kill people. Live birth causes harm to the woman/girls body and even irreversible damage in many cases. Statistically an early termination is always "safer" than giving a live birth.
Not that anyone really cares about the safety or concerns of the women. Pro lifers care about is "life" and what men think about the whole thing....not women.

Want to prevent women from resorting to abortion? Want to save life?
Stop aggressive, libido crazed men from forcing themselves on smaller helpless women and girls who are unable to prevent the assault. Castrate rapists and you will see the number of abortions drop dramatically.

reply to post by Doctor G
What benefit do we truly obtain from ensuring the continued survival of every single person or the unborn?

A great many species have self-regulating birth control mechanisms which prevent them from constantly falling into crisis situations and suffering from hunger. In the case of man, however, such mechanisms - when found at all - are only weak and ineffective: for example, the small-scale infanticide practiced in primitive cultures. Throughout its evolutionary development, humankind has defied and outdistanced the hunger line. Man has been a conspicuously extravagant breeder, and decidedly animal-like. Mankind produces especially large litters both in cramped, distressed conditions, as well as among very prosperous segments of the population. Humans reproduce abundantly in the times of peace and particularly abundantly in the aftermath of a war, owing to a peculiar decree of nature.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


where do you realistically get off disregarding men and their thoughts, rights and feelings?

just because you might be able to callously separate yourself from your own unborn child ... it doesn't mean everybody can, will, or even wishes to.