Abortion musings

I always know the opposing view has run out of logical support for their view when the responses go from on topic in general to snide jr high personal jabs!

Anyway, here are some woman's issues to consider, that are very on topic when discussing abortion, particularly adoption, as this seems to be the pro life side's ideal answer to the topic. Yet where are all the religious anti abortionists to adopt all of these babies(and babies do grow into even more unadoptable children/teens)?

www.medscape.com...

"A common consequence of rape and prostitution is unwanted pregnancy, especially in places where condoms and other forms of birth control are not available or are too expensive. As such, many women turn to abortion. Worldwide, there are 36 to 53 million abortions performed per year.[13] Abortion on request is permitted in only 22% of all countries and in only 6% of those in the developing world. One third of developing countries either prohibit abortion or allow it only in cases of rape or incest or to save the mother's life. Seventy thousand women (8 per hour) die annually from abortions (13% of all maternal deaths).[14] A lack of contraceptive services and impaired access to abortion lead many desperate women to choose self-induced or other unsafe pregnancy termination options. In Latin America, one quarter to one half of maternal deaths are due to unsafe abortions.[14] Worldwide, for every single abortion death, there are 30 infections or injuries.[14] Many more women suffer and die as a result of inadequate prenatal and perinatal care. A recent report from the World Health Organization, the UNICEF children's agency, and the U.N. Population Fund states that women in Sub-Saharan Africa are 175 times more likely to die from complications in pregnancy and childbirth than women in rich countries; in Africa at large, 1 in 16 women do not survive a pregnancy.[15]

In 2001, the Bush Administration reinstituted the "global gag rule," which blocks foreign nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) that receive US family planning assistance from performing abortions, except in cases of rape, incest, or a threat to the woman's life; from providing counseling or referral for abortions; and from advocating for safe and legal abortion in their respective countries.[16] This policy has hampered the efforts of NGOs to provide not only pregnancy terminations, but also contraceptive and anti-HIV services, and has undoubtedly led to an increase in the numbers of unsafe abortions and HIV-infected individuals. The Catholic Church's ongoing, unscientific renunciation of condoms further exacerbates the problems of unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV.[17] "

I find it perverted and very revealing of the poster's psyche to claim the abortion/unwanted pregnancy debate boils down to

"It takes two to tango. You made the decision to open your legs knowing full well that you where performing an act of reproduction. "

It also tells me the person has little concern for women's rights, or remotely care about how women are treated in general.

Again, for the popular knowledge of those members who may not have heard this viewpoint from me before:

The day abortion becomes illegal is the day I leave this country because my right over my body as a woman to decide whether or not I want to go through the process of childbirth has been undermined. Either that or I will knowingly break the law at that point in time and provide herbal abortions to women who feel unable to raise a child and are in their first trimester of pregnancy.

There are women around the world who are raped and impregnated by men that they are forced to live with and they should, in an ideal world, also have the opportunity to have a say over their body in regards to whether they want to bear children.

In my situation, I use multiple forms of birth control including hormonal pills (which as a zoologist causes me to have a moral conflict between protecting many species who are affected by these hormones in the water table and between risking the chance of getting pregnant.)

Abstinence may be an viable option for some but for myself in my current situation I choose not to take that route. I choose to use birth control. And if my birth control fails, I have the choice to have an abortion. You don't see guys going and getting their tubes tied to prevent pregnancy, they have no right to tell me what to do with my body.

I think one of the major problems is the red tape and money when it come to adoption. If it wasn't so hard to adopt a child there wouldn't be a problem with not enough homes. I would adopt a child in a heartbeat, but as a single mother of 3 already doubt they would let me although I know I could more than adequately provide for an adopted child.

Rape is a horrible thing, but I personally couldn't blame the child because of something the father did. Why should the child suffer and feel pain. Yes babies feel pain when they are aborted. Although I think most anti-abortionist agree that incest and rape are the only 2 time when abortion should be allowed.

Men get vasectomies. they don't have tubes to tie. and why have that done if they want a child.

Originally posted by calstorm
I think one of the major problems is the red tape and money when it come to adoption.

And the fact that adoption agencies are packed with children whose parents were unable to care for them.

Rape is a horrible thing, but I personally couldn't blame the child because of something the father did. Why should the child suffer and feel pain. Yes babies feel pain when they are aborted. Although I think most anti-abortionist agree that incest and rape are the only 2 time when abortion should be allowed.

They are not babies they are fetuses and they do not feel pain during the majority of the first trimester because the neuron synapses are not fully developed.

And what about when birth control fails? You think if a woman is responsible in using birth control and the method fails, she should be required to raise that child, even when she was knowingly working to prevent pregnancy?

Men get vasectomies. they don't have tubes to tie. and why have that done if they want a child.

Vasectomy is a minor surgical procedure wherein the vasa deferentia of a man are severed, and then tied/sealed in a manner such to prevent sperm from entering the seminal stream (ejaculate).

en.wikipedia.org...

That would be incorrect. They do have tubes to tie, that is the standard procedure of many vasectomies.

Um. Mm. I withhold further commentary.

[edit on 1/29/2010 by ravenshadow13]

Here's my problem with "choice", the problem that men have none.

A woman has two choices.

1. To keep the baby, and force a man to support it for the rest of his life even if the man doesn't want it, maybe the man would like it to be aborted, so he can also have the easy way out. But no. No deal. Only the woman has that luxury.

or

2. The woman can just ditch the pregnancy, and a man has no say, maybe the man wanted to take care of the child even if the woman wants to abort. But no. No Deal. That guy has to live with the fact that, he had no say in the matter at all.

So don't give me that it's a woman's body nonsense, UNLESS every woman everywhere is willing to never hold any man accountable ever again for knocking them up (and i'm not talking about rape and incest, that's another story so don't bother)

Two to tango, indeed.

i don't condone what roeder did and believe his conviction is just.

on the other hand ... i do kind of understand his reasoning and logic. (right or wrong) he was probably driven a bit crazy with inner turmoil and conflict.

i don't really have a lot of sympathy for the dr either. imo he got what he did to many unborn children ... murdered.

roeder also reasoned that by killing the dr he was saving unborn childrens lives. ironically ... he quite possibly did save a few.

Originally posted by calstorm
I think one of the major problems is the red tape and money when it come to adoption. If it wasn't so hard to adopt a child there wouldn't be a problem with not enough homes. I would adopt a child in a heartbeat, but as a single mother of 3 already doubt they would let me although I know I could more than adequately provide for an adopted child.

Lots of excuses for someone who wants to impose their POV (anti abortion) onto everyone else in the world. How is your type of attitude helping to solve the problem of unwanted babies/children/teens/orphans? You do contribute to their support, though, financially, in some way? I guess I don't understand your view point here, it seems almost hypocritical. Some clarification here would be nice.

Originally posted by calstormRape is a horrible thing, but I personally couldn't blame the child because of something the father did. Why should the child suffer and feel pain. Yes babies feel pain when they are aborted. Although I think most anti-abortionist agree that incest and rape are the only 2 time when abortion should be allowed.

One cannot be anti abortion if one is for abortion.

Originally posted by calstormMen get vasectomies. they don't have tubes to tie. and why have that done if they want a child.

Men do so have tubes!!

"What is Vasectomy?

Permanent sterilization for men. It is done by cutting the vas deferens tubes between your testicles and your groin, and sealing them either with stitches or heat sealing (cauterization). The procedure is usually done under local anaesthesia. There are several procedure types practiced - see later in this FAQ." from:

www.vasectomy-information.com...

Unfortunately, humans dont always have the proper discussions regarding child bearing before they copulate. Human nature, and all that.

I am a strong advocate for sensible sex education, and from an early age. Again, unfortunately, way too many parents fail their children when it comes to sex education, especially the ones I call ostrich parents, who thump their Bible and pr/teach ONLY abstinence. It is because of parents like that, (among many other reasons), that we as a society have to deal with sexually related issues like abortion/adoption.

reply to post by elcapitano75


A man does not go through the process of pregnancy himself. Pregnancy puts a huge strain on a woman's body and poses many risks to her own health. In addition, it is easier for a man to up and leave his child than a woman. Or maybe it's not easier, I don't know, but it happens far more often than the opposite.

Men do have a choice. They can have sex with a woman knowing that she may become pregnant and may choose to abort his child, or he can choose not to have sex with her.

So. Um. Right.

Originally posted by ll__raine__ll
i don't really have a lot of sympathy for the dr either. imo he got what he did to many unborn children ... murdered.

roeder also reasoned that by killing the dr he was saving unborn childrens lives. ironically ... he quite possibly did save a few.

I clearly just have different moral views from you and from many people with that opinion. I personally find that post hateful, rude, and inconsiderate of the rights of woman to choose what to do with their fetuses. And a violation of natural human rights to have a say over their own body and what resides in it. Including fetuses, also including organs, and parasites.

Um.

It's okay. We're just different. I'm letting you know I found your post cold and hurtful. You most likely find mine to be the same.

I totally agree there tater tot.
I feel abortion should be legal and available at any age but I think it shouldnt be allowed UNTIL after 12 months.
That's correct you read what I wrote accurately.
Why would we want to put an age limit on who can be aborted?
I refuse to get into the "alive"----" not yet "alive" debate, thats senseless.
I say take the age restriction right off of it.

Kid becomes too much responsibility between 1 and 4 years old, be nice and quick about it, kid didnt do anything to you, apply for the permit, pay your fee, and personally toss it into the woodchipper, not someone else, parent has to do it.

Kid between 5 and 12 doesnt want to listen, becomes too much to bear, maybe a little slow in school, bad at youth sports, maybe showing signs of an affliction or two, get in line get your permit, let them know you warned em' let em know whats happening, block out those pleas and wimpers and ride out to deep water strap those weights on them, adn toss em' overboard. They'll think twice next time!

Ages 13 to 17 years 11 months 29 days.
If they have failed expectations up to this point, it's pretty much certain then that they will become nothing but a burden on the rest of the world.
Releasing yet another non contributory parasite into the population is unacceptable.
If poor grades, bad attitude, sassy gutter talking, nothing but myspace, facebooking, unemployed, mtv, vh1, wont do a chore, pants dragging,
IQ as bight as a burnt out bulb is all theyve turned out to be,
it's back to the wood chipper but this time its at the end of a 550' water slide.

After 18 its strictly done by Volunteer or random testing to see if you make the cut.

reply to post by ravenshadow13


it is cold regarding the demise of the dr. i surprise myself for feeling that way as i'm usually a lot more compassionate.

my comment being hurtful was not an intent but a consequence. i don't think it was hateful though. as you said we have different views. some people consider unborn children fetuses or parasites ... i just consider them babies or unborn children.

Originally posted by elcapitano75
Here's my problem with "choice", the problem that men have none.

A woman has two choices.

1. To keep the baby, and force a man to support it for the rest of his life even if the man doesn't want it, maybe the man would like it to be aborted, so he can also have the easy way out. But no. No deal. Only the woman has that luxury.

or

2. The woman can just ditch the pregnancy, and a man has no say, maybe the man wanted to take care of the child even if the woman wants to abort. But no. No Deal. That guy has to live with the fact that, he had no say in the matter at all.

So don't give me that it's a woman's body nonsense, UNLESS every woman everywhere is willing to never hold any man accountable ever again for knocking them up (and i'm not talking about rape and incest, that's another story so don't bother)

Two to tango, indeed.

The man most certainly has choices! Vasectomy, condoms, abstinence, frank discussions with his partner before he sexes her up, come on already.

The time for the man's say is BEFORE he releases his sperm into a woman's uterus, because once that little wiggler is in there, the matter is no longer in the man's court, but squarely, and now SOLELY in the woman's. The woman that same man just CHOSE to have sex with!

If I get pregnant and choose to give birth, the man KNEW this was a logical outcome of his careless spilling of seed, and SHOULD be held accountable, just like the woman who gave birth is now responsible for the baby she just birthed.

It sort of sounds like some men(maybe I am wrong!!) are maybe jealous that the woman in this case holds ALL the cards? Maybe some of the men on here have been so called "trapped"? (laughable, no man can be forced to have a baby he did not want, if he spills seed carelessly, that says to me he wanted a baby!)

The bottom line is this.

Men have certain options regarding fertility, sex, and procreation. They are man unique options.

Women have other options regarding the matter, woman unique options.

You sure dont see me badgering men about what type of contraception the intend to use. How dare a man try to badger me about my choices!

If you truly feel that way than you should be fighting against men having to pay child support. Really your arguments are silly
and yes BABIES DO FEEL PAIN!

2010 and we still allow babies to be murdered

Here is your pro choice, choose not to get bloody pregnant
There is only 2 instances where I think abortion should be allowed 1: risk to the parents life and 2: rape(and it still pains me that the child should suffer).
The whole "oh its not really a baby until blah blah blah" argument just doesn't cut it with me, we were all fetuses once and look at us now!!

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
My opinion on abortion is quite simple. So this won't be a very long response.

One, it is always a woman's choice. My body, MY CHOICE.

Two, because men cannot give birth and can never be in the position to need an abortion, the opinion of men on abortion to me(as a female) is moot.

If you are pregnant then you are carrying another life.

No longer just your body or just your decision....it is also a new life to not be so selfish about.

Very often, those who use anti-abortion rhetoric as justification for getting hysterical and for featuring in their own drama in forums

.... have NO concern at all for the LIVING, FULLY FORMED victims of war, of empire-building, of overt aggression and of killing for profit to benefit the military-industrial complex

Hypocritical in the extreme and it shows

Instead of flapping their lips in fora, why aren't they on the front lawn of the Whitehouse, exercising their self-righteous hysteria there about 'Killing' civilian populations including the children they claim to be so concerned about ?

Originally posted by hotbakedtater

My opinion on abortion is quite simple. So this won't be a very long response.

One, it is always a woman's choice. My body, MY CHOICE.

Two, because men cannot give birth and can never be in the position to need an abortion, the opinion of men on abortion to me(as a female) is moot.

Reply by Lonegunman

If you are pregnant then you are carrying another life.
No longer just your body or just your decision....it is also a new life to not be so selfish about.

It's not a new life at all. It's the potential for new life

Just as sperm is potential for new life

Be VERY prudent about where your sperm ends up from now on. Because YOUR logic dictates that whenever it leaves your body, YOU are committing to a lifetime of raising and financial supporting a 'new life'

Hint: condoms, vasectomy, celibacy. Then you won't need to concern yourself about what women do with THEIR bodies .... will you ?

[edit on 29-1-2010 by Dock9]

reply to post by Oceanborn


Exactly, we should abort every single baby that tries to make its way out into this, heck of a place. that would save all of us a little 'something', whether you want a baby or not, what the hell makes you think you need to raise a baby? there are a bunch running around already without parents. or homes of their own, prostitution [SNIP] for housing, now that's a nice program name huh?



Edited vulgarity

[edit on 29/1/10 by masqua]

reply to post by Dock9


Its not just sperm...what are you thinking? Once combined with the egg it is new life. No ifs ands or buts. When do you think new life occurs?

When do you think the miracle of creation happens? In the third trimester? NO it happen when the sperm and the egg become one.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
reply to post by Dock9

 

Its not just sperm...what are you thinking? Once combined with the egg it is new life. No ifs ands or buts. When do you think new life occurs?

When do you think the miracle of creation happens? In the third trimester? NO it happen when the sperm and the egg become one.

If YOUR sperm does not contact the egg, then you won't become a father --- will you ?


How NOT to become a father and be forced by law to financially support a 'new life' for the majority of YOUR life ?
Answer: celibacy, vasectomy, condoms


*IF* you wish your sexual encounter to result in a 'new life' --- be sure your sexual partner is fully committed to ALSO devoting the majority of THEIR life raising and financially supporting the proposed new life. Otherwise, vasectomy, condoms, birth control pills/injection, celibacy

Not difficult, is it ?

Just requires people to accept responsibility for their actions AND the repercussions of those actions

Better still, of course, would be for people to NOT ONLY be licenced before they can breed --- they should ALSO be required to deposit a minimum of $250,000 in trust FOR the support of that child before they are permitted to put any new lives on the planet




[edit on 29-1-2010 by Dock9]