Persecutors of Christians in India Attacked by Elephants.

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posted on Jan, 31 2010 @ 12:57 AM
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Unless one of those elephants killed the guy who raped a nun it's not god's wrath. If it is and he kills innocent people as pay back.. well thats just evil anyway. Someone who is "christ like" should not be gloating over the bad fortune of another creed.

Besides which "an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind".

[edit on 31-1-2010 by riley]




posted on Jan, 31 2010 @ 02:11 AM
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without playing to the whole God thing, I think this is a cool story

could it be that there are different stimuli at the different areas of attack

the primarily christian areas burn different incense, or prepare different foods than the hindu, whatever

maybe it's the Earth way of shoring up the economy

maybe they feel like they should have free roam...the elephants that is

of course the way nature works...probably 1 or 2 are nuttier than elephant #, and the rest are just followers

this happens all the time

look at the democrats



posted on Jan, 31 2010 @ 09:21 AM
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reply to post by Ragu23
 


I agree with you(not that i believe the same).
It's just the whole "ridicule a christian-be cool for a day" idea that irritates me and i'm not directing this to you.I have seen this many times and it starts getting tiring if nothing else.Most of christians are easy targets and that's why most of people are picking on them no matter what's their "goal".
Are christians angels?Offcourse not!
There are bad apples everywhere,we all know that.


Anyway,personally i believe that when "belief" is about to come into play,then it means that we actually try to distant our selves,even a lil bit,from reason (and reality,why not).However,that's just me,i totally respect your belief of God being on nobody's side.

Other than that,about this incident,all i care is about animals.As long as they're fine,i'm cool.



posted on Jan, 31 2010 @ 02:16 PM
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All I am reading in this thread is questioning the motives of God.

Who are we, as mere humans, to claim to know what is best in the long run? We do not see then end picture. We are not all knowing.

God knows all. He is omnipotent. He does things that make no sense to us. But we do not see his view. The consequences of what God does or does not do may not even take affect immediately. It could take place now, it could take place ten years from now, or three hundred years from now.

Everything that happens in this world is because God wills it to be so.

Part of being a Christian (or Jew or Muslim) is knowing that you are a servant of God. God will work through you, be it overtly or covertly. Be it now or in future generations.



Another thing that you all need to realize is that, yes . . . God is love. But more importantly, God is JUST. Justice will be served whether in this life, or in the next one. Whatever atrocities and injustices that happen in our lives, know that God is responsible. Know that all is done for HIS will. Not ours. And know that justice will be served sooner or later.

You make your choice whether you want justice to come in the form of a reward or a punishment.







[edit on 1/31/2010 by Lemon.Fresh]



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 02:51 AM
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reply to post by Dramey
 


I made that comment because usually people like ftanthem praise god when something good happens to them or they might pray for their own desires,needs. But then they blame god when bad things happens, and as for that guy getting so many stars the people who gave him one are tools and followers, they see a comment with alot of stars and like a monkey they add one more,not that I care at all just making a point. What kind of life is there thinking you are your own god, people like that arent always scrupulous.



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 05:17 AM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 





Everything that happens in this world is because God wills it to be so.


Which immediately precludes free will and your god is therefore responsible for all that would be considered evil/not good.



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 05:44 AM
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Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 





Everything that happens in this world is because God wills it to be so.


Which immediately precludes free will and your god is therefore responsible for all that would be considered evil/not good.


Negative. You still have your free will. But God knows what your choice will be. He sees all and knows all. Instead of looking forwards and backwards through time, He looks over time as a whole.
As for God being responsible for all that is evil . . . no.

We are responsible. It is our sin that causes evil. evil that is accomplished by the free will actions of fallen people.



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 07:14 AM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 


You earlier made the claim that -




Everything that happens in this world is because God wills it to be so.


Now you say -





You still have your free will. But God knows what your choice will be. He sees all and knows all.




There is an ocean of difference between knowing an outcome and being the impetus of the outcome.









Instead of looking forwards and backwards through time, He looks over time as a whole.


This is ok if your god is but an observer and you are not claiming it to be the creator of all that there is,was or will ever be.

However as I pointed out you did claim that everything is operating according to the will of your god, unless of course you wish to retract this.

If everything is the will of your god then there can be nothing that is not the will of your god.

If there is something that is not the will of your god then you have to explain it's origin. Obviously anything that is not the will of your god would lay outside the sphere of creation implying that there is something other than your god which would preclude it being the creator of all that there is,was or will ever be.






As for God being responsible for all that is evil . . . no.


Well, clearly .... yes, you can't have it both ways the designed cannot act contrary to its' design unless there is a separate influence you need to explain what the influence is.




We are responsible. It is our sin that causes evil



Clearly not, if it's the jesusyahwhe god your referring to, here's what he himself has to say on the matter -




38Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?





The Lord says,“I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things” (Isaiah 45:7)



So there you go straight from the horses mouth






. evil that is accomplished by the free will actions of fallen people.


Nobody fell from anywhere it is just a delusion and your free will is but an illusion or your god is .



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 07:33 AM
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Originally posted by CuteAngel
Other than ethnic violence, if they were in fact killed because they were Christians, I say down with the infidels. Maybe a few lions ought to be set against them apart from just a few elephants. Besides this is something that is being carried out by certain tribal/forest people as well as dalits. They are not hindus.

I also question who is killing the Christians.
The description sounds just like what is happening in many other places in the world by Muslims.



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 07:36 AM
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Originally posted by ViperFoxBat
Elephants are really underestimated. They have very good memories and they are family oriented. They can also communicate through the ground.

Isn't there an ancient story about Hannibal or something that resembles this one?



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 09:08 AM
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Originally posted by moocowman
. . .



There is an ocean of difference between knowing an outcome and being the impetus of the outcome.


His will is done,because he knows the outcome already. He already has things worked out.

We do have free will, but he knows what choices we will make already.

He does not tell us to make those choices, but he knows what we will do.











This is ok if your god is but an observer and you are not claiming it to be the creator of all that there is,was or will ever be.

However as I pointed out you did claim that everything is operating according to the will of your god, unless of course you wish to retract this.

If everything is the will of your god then there can be nothing that is not the will of your god.


You misunderstand, or I did not state it correctly.

God's will is done no matter what happens. He sees all and knows all. He knows what our future choices will be, and has taken that into account for his plan.



If there is something that is not the will of your god then you have to explain it's origin. Obviously anything that is not the will of your god would lay outside the sphere of creation implying that there is something other than your god which would preclude it being the creator of all that there is,was or will ever be.


You are going way out into left field. It is quite simple, really.








Well, clearly .... yes, you can't have it both ways the designed cannot act contrary to its' design unless there is a separate influence you need to explain what the influence is.



Err . . . yeah you can, as I have explained above.







Clearly not, if it's the jesusyahwhe god your referring to, here's what he himself has to say on the matter -




38Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?





The Lord says,“I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things” (Isaiah 45:7)



So there you go straight from the horses mouth


Perhaps it would do you well to study God's Word more thoroughly, instead of jumping onto wild claims. that have no scriptural bearing.

God Is Not Responsible For Evil






. . .
Nobody fell from anywhere it is just a delusion and your free will is but an illusion or your god is .


Mmmm . . . two choices, and neither is the right one.

Are you perfect?

Is anyone perfect (except for Jesus)?

Obviously no, so that means that we all have sinned. Therefore, we are fallen.

Common sense here, cow.






[edit on 2/1/2010 by Lemon.Fresh]



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 09:38 AM
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Originally posted by maximiliian
reply to post by Dramey
 


I made that comment because usually people like ftanthem praise god when something good happens to them or they might pray for their own desires,needs. But then they blame god when bad things happens,


Actually, I DO praise God when something good happens but, when something bad happens, I accept that it is done according to Gods plan and even though I may not like it or may be upset by it I do not get upset at God.

I humbly accept God's will saying "In all things, Thy will be done, Amen."



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 





Perhaps it would do you well to study God's Word more thoroughly, instead of jumping onto wild claims. that have no scriptural bearing.


Perhaps you would do well to do it yourself, an apologist trying to explain away how the alleged creator of "everything" cannot be held accountable for something within creation which it clearly states it does will not do.

So, in order for you to refute the Isiah verse you introduce the argument that as other verses say the opposite the first can't bee correct. Of course this goes nowhere in resolving the problem but merely shows the inconstancy and contradictions of the gospels.


You seem to omit that Isaiah is backed up by -




The Lord says,“I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things” (Isaiah 45:7)


How could you god not accept responsibility for anything that is extant should it do otherwise would imply there is something created by one or more of the other gods that it is so jealous of, or even some other creator.

The claim is that your god created all that there is was or ever will be, yet somehow there is something that exists which it did not create.

In order for something to exist that your god did not create requires a creator for it, all well and good but this would preclude your god being all that there is.


Again, you have not explained the source of impetus which conflicts with your gods' "will", as xtians are fond of saying," you can't have something from "nothing".



posted on Feb, 1 2010 @ 11:15 AM
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reply to post by FortAnthem
 





Actually, I DO praise God when something good happens but, when something bad happens, I accept that it is done according to Gods plan and even though I may not like it or may be upset by it I do not get upset at God.


That is a startlingly frightening bit of thinking you have there my friend.

So when you see a butterfly you praise god for its' beauty and complexity but when you see a maggot burrow its' way into a babies brain do you also praise god for this beauty and complexity or pretend it doesn't happen ?



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by Nutter
reply to post by FortAnthem
 


Yeah, that makes sense from a Christian point of view.

God sends elephants to attack, kill, and destroy houses because those people attacked, killed, and destroyed the houses of other people?

Some kind, loving, all forgiving God you got there.




you forgot about the part about he is a God who loves justice



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by hadriana
From what I recall, those attacks on the Christians were some sort of vengence from some perceived injustice that the Christians had levied on the Hindus TO START WITH.

None of it sounds very Christian to me.


proof, papers please



posted on Apr, 2 2011 @ 08:27 PM
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Originally posted by Nutter
reply to post by FortAnthem
 


Yeah, that makes sense from a Christian point of view.

God sends elephants to attack, kill, and destroy houses because those people attacked, killed, and destroyed the houses of other people?

Some kind, loving, all forgiving God you got there.




Poor attempt at twisting things to suit your sad beliefs..

Actually it is true God is forgiving, but common sense shows there would be limits..

The people raping nuns and killing and destroying Christians weren't very forgiving were they?

You Think the concept of a forgiving God means you can just continue day after day with your criminal and inhumane treatment of others and have God just ignore that based on his mercy?

Your logic is the logic of a very small child.



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by maximiliian
reply to post by Nutter
 


oh yeah lets forgive the people who gang raped and murdered innocent nuns its ok hey maybe you can get together and have lunch sometime since they like to go around persecuting people for their religious beliefs. They needed to be punished and so thats exactly what happened such foul souls deserve it.
Im sorry you cant see the light.

In the new testament does it say to forgive your enemies or murder them with elephants? My theology is a little rusty.



posted on Apr, 3 2011 @ 02:07 PM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 


You wrote:

["God's will is done no matter what happens. He sees all and knows all. He knows what our future choices will be, and has taken that into account for his plan."]

First of all it must empathetically be pointed out, that everything in this statement is BASED on doctrinal postulates, which rest on circular argumentation. In other words: "It's true, because it's true."

This is FAITH, and has nothing to do with science/logic or rational reasoning whatsoever (I'm not trying to present a contest between science/logic and faith, just reminding of the undeniable differences between them existing already from square one).

But just as an experiement, let's see, what this quote from you and the rest of your argumentations is, and where it leads, if we momentarily accept it as a working hypothesis.

So disregarding the validity of your fundament, YOUR further premises are:

1/ There is a 'god', which is ultimate reality and the primal cause.

2/ This 'god' is beyond space-time (space-time being a part of 'god's' creation and thus subsidiary to 'god')

3/ 'God' can thus observe everything inside space-time independent of temporal or spatial restrictions.

4/ 'God' has an overall, ineffable plan, which is his 'will' (intent?), but on special dispensation ...

5/ 'God' has arranged, so at least mankind has what's called 'free will' (meaning that structural order, rules or regulations aren't compulsary). Mankind can according to 'free will' make its own choices, but while 'god' can observe the outcome of this, he/she/it/that doesn't interfere.

Here is my analysis of your premises, partly using sources which are common amongst the christianities.

Mankind's postulated 'free will' is not total. Already from the start there were 'consequences', because while we're free to make choices, these choices are made on a background of superiour conditions, we have to relate to and be responsible to.

"If you choose wrong, according to the superiour conditions, you have it coming"

The superiour conditions were

a/ DON'T achieve insight on 'right and wrong' (however that's defined. The christianities and generally abrahamic religions are in wild disagreement on this).

b/ Be OBEDIENT.

So obviously mankind has limited 'free will'. A conclusion fitting well with the observable part of mundane existence, where mankind to some extent can 'create' in a minor way, but where cosmic ('natural') laws still restrict us. (E.g. the principles of physical manifestations and 'forces' and how these manifestations and forces are structured in certain relationships: Gravity etc).

In a creation where ALL parts have ultimate 'free will' it will be impossible for the creator to interfere, and even if this creator can observe the outcome of such a situation, a total 'free will'/non-inteference model will not guarantee any fixed result.

This would be an experiment then, and what use has an omniscient entity of 'experiments'?

In a creation where there's limited 'free will', with the major part of the creation running on tracks according to fixed rules and regulations, SPECIFIC questions can be asked concerning 'free will'.

As in the movie in the 'Matrix' series, where the 'architect' talked about the 'irregularites/flaws in the equation'.

'God' NEEDS the irregularity of 'free will', but in the context of a creation and a 'plan', where 'free will' eventually is an expendable pawn.

No matter how eloquently the situation is described (a personal comment: Christian 'explanations' are from a standard logical position 99% demagogic twisted semantics = fairytales), it will always boil down to:

What is the reason/intent/motive/necessity of an omni-everything 'creator' to introduce an irregularity in the creation?

When up against this impertinent question from standard logic, christian evangelists usually try two ways of answering.

1/ They hijack standard science/logic, and twist it into their own christian version, where the original systematic methodologies of science/logic are completely disregarded, but where a false image of the good name and respectability of original and REAL science/logic is pretended: "See, we are scientific and logical"

2/ OR they rely on the argument of 'ineffability', where "mankind doesn't know everything and can't know everything" is expected to justify a filling out knowledge-vacuums with any kind of postulates (sometimes plain insane nonsense).

I resume:

1/ Method one is a christian exchange, adaption and perversion of objective methodology to subjective methods.

2/ Method two is filling out objective knowledge gaps with subjective postulates.

Both methods have manifested on this thread, but ofcourse carefully avoiding source- and methodology-critical challenges.

I have such a challenge here:

The inevitable regression of christian arguments (apart from the basic circle-argumentation) leads to:

1/ Inductive reasoning falsely presented as deductive logic.

2/ Ineffability presented as THE answer to knowledge gaps.

Both methods are faith-methodologies, and can be used by all, I repeat, ALL faiths. Applying such absurd claims and methods to any postulates, the flying spaghetti monster is as 'proved' as the cristianities or as any other religion.

So exactly WHY is your faith-based religion and your faith-based methods and faith-based answers better than other faith-based ideologies (including the religion of the flying spaghetti monster)?

I apologize for the length, extent and possible circumstantial language in this post, but the christianities have had two thousand years of saturating language and society with their own propaganda and creating methods of pseudo-rational argumentation, so it's beyond my possibilities to present opposition in a 10-liner post.



posted on Apr, 4 2011 @ 09:40 AM
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Here are some interesting scriptures that tie into this fascinating story.

Proverbs 22:8

Those who plant injustice will harvest disaster, and their reign of terror will come to an end.


Job 4: 8 &9

Whenever I saw those who plowed wickedness and planted misery, they gathered its harvest. 9God destroys them with his breath and kills them with a blast of his anger.


Galatians 6:7

Don’t be misled—you cannot mock the justice of God. You will always harvest what you plant.


At the very least it sends a message to the violent people of India, "Leave them Christians alone".





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