Better Off Deadbeat: People Get Into Debt, Learn the Law, Become "Credit Terrorists"

Originally posted by jaysconspiracy

Originally posted by Lunatyx

Originally posted by jaysconspiracy
What kind of world are we living in!!?? People on here are cheering the idea of not paying any more of their debts and saying " to hell with them" to all the people they borrowed from. It should come to no shock that we live in a crumbling society where unemployment is up and the desire to work hard is way down. Everyone expects a golden life to just be handed to them.

I agree with you, people who get a loan, should always try to do their very best to pay it off as soon as they can. A loan is a big responsibility.

BUT, I would very much like to point out 2 things :

1- Isn`t it completely unfair that even when you work day in, day out, week after week that you cannot afford the most basic things like a home or a decent education ? No one should have to take a loan for such things, but in this day and age there is just no other option.

2-

the desire to work hard is way down.

- You find this strange ? Almost none of the people who work 9 to 5 jobs feel that their work supports their survival. They work because they simply have to. If people would get a sense of fullfillment at the end of the day by realising they have worked so that they could survive - live, their desire to work would also increase.

I`m not trying to shake your cage, I`m just trying to show some empathy...

I totally agree with your point that we live in a tough world where we are working our butts off and still struggling to get by.. Unless you are the fortunate rich, then its pretty much a guarantee that both husband and wife have to work to support their family. And yea that does bother me, but I'm not ready to pin the cost of living changes on why people are getting lazy. Thats a opinion topic that has many sides. I'd say we are spoiled living easy compared to my grandfather who had to go out and pick potatoes for his lunch. People a hundred years ago had life so hard that an 8 hour work day would be a joke. But they'd appreciate the benefits of doing it so much that they'd keep working hard. It almost feels to me that some people expect the hand outs to be there for them whether they work or not or regardless on how hard they work.......

Jay talks about personal responsibility and others want to argue they should not have to pay for something they willingly purchased. Let us forget how the banks, Fed Reserve create money. That sure as Hell is not the point. Let us simplify the situation.

Farmer John has a apple tree with more apples than he will need until next seson. You, on the other hand, don't have an apple tree. You may have other types of wealth, but not an apple tree. --And you want some....

You make a deal with Farmer John. He gives you as many apples as you want, not need, but want--key point there--and you promise to pay him with some of your types of wealth.

Unfortunately, somebody steals all of your wealth but you still have some of the apples. You go to Farmer John and tell him, sorry, I can't pay. He responds by saying you own him. And at the least, you owe him all of the apples you have left.

You get mad at him, refuse to return the unused apples, and blame him and everybody else for your own greed that got you in trouble.

And some of you argue that Farmer John is the one that should be left holding the empty apple sack?

In psychological terms, that is called cognitive dissonnce--lying to yourself. It is all too common to those with little personal intregity

Notice*******The posting directly above this one which is under my name also is none of my doing. ATS computer glitch, I guess.



[edit on 28-1-2010 by Aliensun]

Hahaha YUSSSSSS!

Credit Freedom Fighters??

This (collections) is a business built on language meant to trip and entrap.

While there's honour in paying off debt, I think there's honour (and wayyy more satisfaction) in using these companies obfuscating language and policies to trip them up and entrap them.

Like has been said, tit for tat. You taxpayers bailed out these banks and corporations (some, after being bailed out, declared bankruptcy anyway, so you all paid for their mistakes twice) And you definitely don't have the power to print money. People see these folks basically getting rewarded for their misdeeds. Creating bubbles, duping (in my opinion) people into too-good-to-be-true contracts. Too good to be true for people with knowledge of the laws, maybe, but for the feller who's working 60 a week to make ends meet and has no time to do the research/money to pay a lawyer to do so, it is some much awaited breathing room

Then, as one poster has said, the poorer people end up paying off the richer peoples' blunders. All without your consent. Skewed, indeed.



So yeah stick it to them any chance you get, they'll sure as hell stick it to you!

Maybe this'll learn 'em about responsible lending as much as it's learnin' you about responsible borrowing! (HAHAHAHA Yeahhhhh......)

I only wish i had my voice recorder handy when they were bothering me.

[edit on 1/28/2010 by WizardVanWizard]

I must admit I am torn in two on this one. Its true the banks just you a piece of plastic but don't forget they are paying the merchant with their money until you pay them back. No doubt that banks are in it for money and more than they deserve but thats how it works. They are crooked in a lot of respects especially in the intrest they charge and all the small print and the laws are largely in their favor unless you are like this guy and know the laws and use it against them. But when he does not pay his bill that means mine and yours go up...hence the big intrest rates. I am not a credit card person and owe no debt but I don't have kids and it's a lot easier when it just me to feed and keep in clothes. This guy seems to be getting away with being a deadbeat at our expense because don't doubt for a minute they get their money back from those that do pay the bills. In all fairness to the banks...most did not want the money or even need the Obama bill out but were forced into taking it so Obama could then use it as leverage to tell them who to loan money to. Thats how a lot of them got into trouble to begin with by making loans to people that really could not afford it because Congress told them too. Most of the banks have already paid back the money...its AIG and GM that have gotten a free ride.

It almost feels to me that some people expect the hand outs to be there for them whether they work or not or regardless on how hard they work.......

Well who put that system of handouts in place? Who allowed it to be perpetuated by companies and people alike?

Originally posted by jaysconspiracy

Originally posted by Damian-007
There was a time when People who gave their word, Kept it. Nowadays, someones word isn't worth a whole lot.

I would be ashamed of myself if I borrowed money from a bank or a friend and never paid it back. I am proud of my credit rating and I feel good when I go to a Bank and ask for a loan knowing that they know that they won't have any problems with me.

The problem with a lot of people today is they have no pride and have no shame. They're not worried too much about their credit ratings and if they go Bankrupt, So be it. In my day, it was a shameful thing, to go Bankrupt. Today, Bankruptsy doesn't have the stigma like it did years ago. I don't know why that is.

A lot of the problem is also attributable to the lenders as well. Some lenders will lend money even though you have been bankrupt and half the time they know you will have a hard time paying that money back.

There's a statement I heard a few years ago too that doesn't help much. The statement I heard was :

You haven't really made it in business unless you have gone Bankrupt in your career.

What sort of statement is that?

I really wonder what the future holds for the next generation..

I agree totally. Great post..Call it old fashion, but I want people to know that my word or my handshake means its a done deal.

Yea, and they count on that repeatedly. They count on people (cops, businesses and govt.) to not know the laws because it's easy for them to abuse people that can't or don't know how to fight back. Why do you think those laws about credit where put up their in the first place, it's because it wasn't a mistake here or a mistake there it was collectors threatening (verbally, mentally and physically in some instances) people to get the money that they bought from the original owner of the debt for pennies on the dollar. The original company wrote off the account and this debt was sweeped up by a collection agency looking to make money. If the debt is so important to the original company, why don't they fight for it longer. It's because they write it off and sell the data of bad loans and/or customer debt into the market. And another thing about being "old fashion" is that it's old pure and simple. Todays society and even the one back then during the 19th century and early 20th didn't follow the "rules". Do you think that all of these CEO's of Banks and industry didn't used hardball negotiations or trampled on someone elses "word and handshake" to get what they want, they did.

They count on people like you and even me at one time to do our duty as a "citizen" to pay our bills and keep our promises, even if we don't have enough money to feed our kids or a roof over our head. You see a corporation defined only cares about it's shareholders and stakeholders, thats it. It doesn't care if you can't feed your kid or your mother is dying or my wife is sick with cancer, it doesn't care. All it cares is making money for those two entities. Also in all societies there is always the poor, sick and elderly that can't support themselves or not well enough. There is only enough jobs to go around in any society, so there will always be people without jobs or a way to make enough money to survive in that societies economy. So what do you do with those people, aww shucks tuff luck you don't eat and your kids don't eat. There supposed to mechanically think and say "hmmm, I don't have a job and/or can't find one that pays enough so I will only stay within my means". The problem is that our economy has made it impossible to stay within your means with or without a degree. If your getting paid minimum wage, you may not have enough money for rent and or the place you rent is to far from work or the bus line. Then you need the money to pay for food and clothing and other bare minimum stuff. Also if you have a child what do you do without having CPS take your kid for not providing enough food in the house for a child or adequate clothing or the necessary doctor visits you must pay etc. etc..

Our economy is based on debt financing. We have to use some form of debt to subsidize pay (if we are lucky to be employeed) that hasn't kept up with inflation which the govt. doesn't report truthfully. They rig the game in their favor and complain when the people fight back or do the same thing to them. We are sheep to be raised and fleeced and culled when need be by the corporate masses. Your thinking of a firm handshake and your word is bond is the same as a sheep being raised and instructed through learned behavior to go one by one into a wooden corridor to wait your turn at the end of the line to be fleeced and possibly culled. Yea the farm hands/bankers and corporations are happy the sheep/you followed learned behavior and your happy to just before your next to be processed.

Originally posted by jaysconspiracy
What kind of world are we living in!!?? People on here are cheering the idea of not paying any more of their debts and saying " to hell with them" to all the people they borrowed from. It should come to no shock that we live in a crumbling society where unemployment is up and the desire to work hard is way down. Everyone expects a golden life to just be handed to them.

if you truly understood real economics and how the financial/debt system works you would see the fallacy and ignorance of everything you just said. Do your due diligence before commenting on things you arent aware of.

Everyone please stop blaming the "Banks". It's like blaming a shark for eating a seal. Everyone should know by now that those organizations are purely in it to enslave us in a neverending pile of bills. OK, now that we can agree on that the solution: Teach our children to never, never, never take out a loan for anything!!!!

We have been tricked to believe that everyone has a right to a big ole house, shiny new cars, 10 years of higher? education, 6 billion new gadgets per family, cosmetic surgery, and having their kids play every sport in school. What happened to simple living? I mean if the amish can exist fine without doctorate degrees, then why can't the rest of us?

reply to post by jaysconspiracy


You say to other people to take responsibility for themselves yet you take the easy way out and declare bankruptcy. What's the difference between bankruptcy and just not paying your debts? Either way your debt doesn't get paid.

Originally posted by jaysconspiracy
I agree totally. Great post..Call it old fashion, but I want people to know that my word or my handshake means its a done deal.

Until you declare bankruptcy I guess.

Anyway, if the laws are there then they need to be followed; if the collection agency doesn't follow them then they deserve to get sued. Simple really.


[edit on 28-1-2010 by TheComte]

Originally posted by [davinci]
reply to post by daddio

 

I don't know if you realise it, but you probably just exposed the one of the lesser reasons behind the SCOTUS declaring corporations people.

4. Signatures of the Parties/ Meeting of the Minds (corporations can’t sign because they have no right, or mind, to contract as they are legal fictions).

By declaring corporations as people this statement is now void.

[edit on 28-1-2010 by [davinci]]

Actually, it is not void, look in any law dictionary, a "person" IS listed as a corporation, and in that ONLY flesh and blood humans can contract with one another. IT is the "flesh and blood humans", if WE the People are not corporations or incorporated individuals, then the contract is still null and void, Nunc Pro Tunc, in latin. That is the catch, if you know the magic language, you can come out on top every time. Political Jurisdiction, a corporate fiction has none.

The law is ALWAYS on the side of the flesh and blood human, that is the law of God and of Nature. That's the big secret.

I think it's fair to expect that people in any position should be aware of the law and violations of it as pertains to their jobs. I'm certainly well aware of all laws that apply to both my employer and myself as regards to my own job - and if I violated that law, knowingly or unknowingly, I would have to accept the consequences.

For example, if I served a minor alcohol as part of my job, whether I was aware of the law or not, I should be punished by the law for breaking it. I don't think it's wrong, therefore, that consumers are acting with knowledge and fighting back when companies break the law as it stands.

You people don't get it!!

Banks lend NO MONEY!!!! It is a transfer of numbers from one side of a ledger to another. Our corporate government has issued a TREASURY BOND in YOUR NAME valued at $1,000,000. YOU have been sold countless times on the international stock market WITHOUT your knowledge. YOU have assets of millions of dollars in the U.S. Treasury that you are obviously unaware of. THEY have used YOU!!! ALL of the natural resources on the planet are OURS, the flesh and blood humans. It is ours by Right and by Dominion. THEY take it out of the ground or cut it down or mine it and sell it all over the world and BACK TO US at a great mark up.

What about that DO YOU NOT understand?

SO, the home you bought has been paid for for years. Homes used to be handed down in the generations, but guess what, the Elite were not getting a piece of the ACTION!! So they came up with a scam and it was bought, hook, line and sinker!!! BARTER, remember that?

This is about setting the record straight. THEY owe US. What are you people bitching about? How many people have died for these bastards? THINKING they were doing the right thing and fighting for freedom, what freedom?

YOU owe nothing to the federal government nor any corporation, they have stolen your dignity and wealth and you are okay with that? And you want to continue the fraud? If you are NOT part of the solution, you are part of the problem. SIMPLE.

If you want to stop the Elite from destroying this planet, stop funding them.

[edit on 28-1-2010 by daddio]

I'm likely not going to add anything all that new.

I agree that a person should pay his debts, however....

The banking and credit card industry has gotten very sleazy about things. You are essentially paying out many times what an item is worth to buy it, on credit. You get slapped with fees for doing things with your own money, paying bills, etc. It's dishonest. I say, if you are going to lend money, you have them pay back the loan, and take a fair fee for the service, and that's it. You shouldn't have to pay 10 times the amount for something.

I had $175 in overdraft fees slapped on me for overdraft incidents that maybe totaled around $50. And, I explained my situation to the bank. There was a charge on there that should not have been there, which I soon after had removed. I also had $45 I should have been able to put in there that day before 2 o'clock, but my client forgot to leave me the check. I got the check there 1 day, 1 day later than it should have been, hence the multiple overdrafts totaling $175. The bank did not take this into consideration. I ended up at -$120 roughly. So, that tells me, had I gotten the money in the bank 1 day earlier, and the extra charge, that shouldn't have been there, wasn't there, I would have been in the clear by about $55. So, I told them I was going to take my business elsewhere.

I say the best way to do things, is to live debt free. Don't buy things you don't have money for. This includes cars and everything. Save up for things. I paid $175 for my car, it's ugly, but dammit, it's paid for. Credit card companies will devour you if are not careful.

I've told some of the collection companies, look, if you want to do the legal thing and sue, you aren't going do anything but waste money, because I don't have much of anything for you to take. A lot of my past creditors got a fair share of money from me anyway. I've got to eat, and keep trying to build up my business, those are my important things, not paying back an inflated debt. They won't get more money until I can get that income flowing better. I'm not going to do without my life so some guy with his feet on his desk can line his pockets with money.

Troy

let us not forget, its not just a matter of us borrowing said money with credit cards, and then not paying it back. The banks take EVERY opportunity to jack you, from increases in APR in the small print on page 12, to massive over draft fees, to late fees, to APR's at 30% which USED to be called usury, and mobsters used to go to jail for. They are constantly adding extra charges and such, and then when you get so overburdened you go into default, they continue to rack up massive usage fees, late fees, etc, until on a credit card where you actually only bought $300 worth of merchandise, you wind up owing $1200.

The banks are rife with this kind of action. I found BoA would rearrange the order my charges came out of my account so the biggest would come out first leaving me with many little charges after that would all have overdraft fees attached. They said they did this because high cost items should come out first assuring things like my rent got approved, but in reality, they approved all of them, but got to charge me more overdrafts due to their rearranging of the order the fees were processed. THEN they started charging an extended overdraft fee if i didnt pay my initial fee in 4 days! They are predatory and immoral, and deserve to be treated in kind. Stick with local and nonprofit banks such as USAA....your treatment will be many times fairer and better, but in the meantime, use every tool at your disposal to protect yourself from predatory banking, as they use every tool at their disposal to help themselves to your money as well.

I hear ya.

That's the same thing First1Bank here told me as to why they put the larger fees first. So, things like rent or something would come out first. I think it may bejust be a scam to rack up those overdrafts charges.

Troy

Originally posted by Aliensun
Jay talks about personal responsibility and others want to argue they should not have to pay for something they willingly purchased. Let us forget how the banks, Fed Reserve create money. That sure as Hell is not the point. Let us simplify the situation.

Okay, you simplify it, and I'll turn it into reality.

Farmer John has a apple tree with more apples than he will need until next seson. You, on the other hand, don't have an apple tree. You may have other types of wealth, but not an apple tree. --And you want some....

You've left out the fact that Farmer John is the only person with an apple tree, and apples are the only thing people want.

You make a deal with Farmer John. He gives you as many apples as you want, not need, but want--key point there--and you promise to pay him with some of your types of wealth.

This isn't relevant to our case. We aren't borrowing apples and promising to pay them back in cheesecake. Our case would be Farmer John giving me as many apples as I want, upon agreement that I owe him an extra apple for each month I don't return the apples I owe him. People want apples, not cheesecake.

Unfortunately, somebody steals all of your wealth but you still have some of the apples. You go to Farmer John and tell him, sorry, I can't pay. He responds by saying you own him. And at the least, you owe him all of the apples you have left.

It doesn't matter that somebody stole my cheesecake. Nobody wants it. Farmer John wants his apples, and if I don't have them, I still "owe" him apples.

You get mad at him, refuse to return the unused apples, and blame him and everybody else for your own greed that got you in trouble.

No. We get mad because when we first borrowed the apples, we owed an apple per month as long as we still owed him apples. Now Farmer John claims there's a huge shortage of apples and demands two apples per month as long as we still owe him apples.

And some of you argue that Farmer John is the one that should be left holding the empty apple sack?

No. What they're trying to say is that Farmer John shouldn't be able to demand more apples whenever he pleases, and we shouldn't be forced to give up spare apples to pay for somebody elses apple shortage.


Your example wasn't great, nor was my response, but hopefully this helps clarify.


- Strype

Originally posted by ViperFoxBat
Credit card companies are the only type of business that will charge you for making a payment. If I try and make a payment over the phone in order to not miss a payment they will charge you a fee for doing so. My new years resolution that will not be broken is, "Don't buy something you don't have the money for".

This is a philosophy that I have lived my entire life by, which is why the only debt I have is my student loans and is also why I don't own much

On the matter of student loans, this is a perfect example of the financial system being set up to force you into debt. Get into debt or don't get an education. It's sick really, because you are basically in debt before you even set out on a career. You basically enter into life in thousands of pounds worth or debt.

Originally posted by jaysconspiracy
Look you and I could go back and forth on all of this stuff forever, but what you list above is irrelevant to the opinion I had. I hate the b.s. we deal with in this world and I agree with the issues you mentioned above. But that is irrelevant to the fact that its not ok to borrow money from someone, promise to pay them back on the terms negotiated and then decide you no longer meant what you said! I don't own credit cards anymore, but if I did I wouldnt complain if my interest rate was 24 percent just like they warned me it would be! My home loan is forcing me and the wife to work extra jobs to make ends meet but thats my choice, and I will pay as I've promised to pay. Again my point is to take responsibility for what you've agreed to do. If you dont like credit cards dont get them. Even if it matters to nobody else, I enjoy knowing that my word means something. And when I tell my friends or family I'm going to do something, they know I will follow through. I guess my collection department would be unemployed if everyone thought like me though

If keeping your word to a third party, multi national corporation that would just as soon kick you out on your ear as take your money is important to you, than by all means, pay them whatever they say they owe you - as soon as they say they want it.

I on the other hand will continue to be a "paper terrorist" and do my utmost to ensure these types of companies waste as much time as they can muster chasing ghosts.

You can try and get all moral about it but at the end of the day, they're not people... they're corporations... You are affording these institutions respect when they deserve none and wouldn't extend the same courtesy to you.

Good for people doing this!

I was once a victim of identity theft, back before anyone knew what it was. It didn't happen online, it happened when someone stole checks out of my mailbox (or they went to the wrong address, or something.) I had ordered the checks from Current.

So on a Friday I put 2500 in the bank and that night we ordered pizza. I paid with a check. (1990?)

A week or so later, I got a call from a bill collector about that pizza check, about 9PM and the guy was just cussing me up one side and down the other and I had NO idea what was up. (I went to the bank the next day and found out it was bad...it was very bad.)

So the police in one county decided I did it myself and I had checks I didn't write and the ones I did bouncing all over the place. I was having to drive her and there to give writing samples and take lie detector tests before the STUPID cops would just look at my work records and figure out there was NO way I could have been in Detroit AND at work IN a courtroom myself.

Then I got to go home and get cussing phone calls and rude people. I'd get affadavits (over 100 counts of forgery in my name) and send them to Transunion and Equifax only to think I had it all cleared up only to find out in a LONG costly phone conversation that some database replicated somewhere and there I was at square one again.

So from an early age I learned that these people don't give a crap about you, even if YOU DO work and always pay your bills. I simply hate them all. It has been well over 20 years and I still hate them just as much as I ever did.

Originally posted by jaysconspiracy
What kind of world are we living in!!?? People on here are cheering the idea of not paying any more of their debts and saying " to hell with them" to all the people they borrowed from. It should come to no shock that we live in a crumbling society where unemployment is up and the desire to work hard is way down. Everyone expects a golden life to just be handed to them. Not that long ago I got myself in a world of credit card debt. I did my best to pay but eventually it snowballed and I had to file bankruptcy. I felt ashamed by giving these companies my word and then not coming through on my debt. You are the moron who had to borrow and now you are mad at the person who was willing to take a chance on you and lend you money!?????????? Look in a perfect world everything would be free, but in the real world it doesn't work that way. So at the end of the day you have to decide what type of person you are going to be. Are you going to do your best to be a man ( or woman ) of your word, or are you another leech wants it all but isnt willing to work for it? Don't borrow if you cant pay for it!!! Take some responsibility for yourself!! Bailing on your debts just raises costs and interest on the paying people!

That's not even the point man...

"The man" has the resources & knowledge to leverage the letter of the law and rules against YOU (and I) to his advantage..

All's fair in love and war, in a war to survive by avoiding financial ruin there is nothing wrong, or illegal, with using the mans petty chickenfeces rules & regulations against him.

You both agreed to abide by these rules & regulations, the man holds you accountable.. you can hold the man accountable.

Besides that, the man is allowed to create the money he loans, literally, out of thin air... like a loan shark with a printing press. If the man agrees to loan you $20, you are not getting $20 out of his pocket, or one cent from his account... you're getting debt the man is legally allowed to create from nothing...