"New Proofs from The Experts: Native Americans are the Descendants of Shang Dynasty Chinese"

Originally posted by silent thunder
Although this is a very cool idea, I'm suspicious of the map in the original post. The calligraphic style of the Chinese characters does not seem very old to me (anyone here know Chinese who can back me up on this?).

Although I could be mistaken, the original map looks like it was drawn sometime in the modern or early-modern period, well after the existence of the Americas would be known throughout East Asia. The calligraphic font, as well as things like the square boxes around the characters, etc. point to a non-Ancient origin. It also uses some modern characters... for example, it calls Japan "日本”, which is not a truly ancient Chinese designation for those islands. The Chinese used the character "倭" for Japan long before "日本" came into use, and long after the Shang dynasty. That's just one example. The details on Africa and Europe also suggest a much more recent understanding.

The map also appears remarkably well-preserved, and the quality of paper/printing seems to suggest its not more than a few centuries old at the oldest.

[edit on 1/28/10 by silent thunder]

I've tried to search for some details of the map.
The map being shown at that website is most probably a replica of a map made by the North Koreans (the Joseon Dynasty).

It was based on Giulio Aleni's Complete map of all the countries (萬國全圖) in the 17th Century. At that time, China is in the era of Ming Dynasty, a lot later than Shang Dynasty.
source:
zh.wikipedia.org...
big5.lrn.cn...
(both in Chinese)

As for the usage of 倭, Japan started being referred to as "日本国" during the time when Wu Zetian(武則天) ruled, in the era of Tang Dynasty, at around 618-907AD.
Since the map is created at a much later date, that is why Japan is shown as "日本国" on it.

Apart from these, the eleventh emperor of the Shang Dynasty should be "Zhong Ding" (仲丁) but not shandu.
I've spent a lot of time reading different sorts of things but just can't figure out who shandu is or what shandu is. It will be a lot better if the original text in Chinese could be found.





[edit on 31-1-2010 by kagegyou]

[edit on 31-1-2010 by kagegyou]

Through archeology, we realized mankind may have been around for hundred thousands of years. History tell us that civilisation only began 4000 years ago, but that's because it was based on recorded history.

But what about UNRECORDED history of civilisation - where groups of humans formed societies for self protection, used a primitive form of social order and started farming and trade instead of just hunting for animals?

Archeology digs had shown mankind capable of such deeds, as evident by farm tools, constructed living quarters, and a form of social order with burial mounds, and much more other evidences. Therefore, there must be civilisations that dates back to more than 4000 years old on Earth.

There seems to be 3 basic types of homo sapiens - the strong tall blond blue eyed and adventurours Aryans from Nordic states. 2nd type are the equally tall and strong but black skinned Africans. The 3rd kind are the Mongoloids of China.

Could it be that eons past, they contributed to the gene pool in physical characteristics through intergration and absorbtion into societies? And then with each further waves of migration, the racial characteristics continue to evolved to present day differences?

Even before there was name to China, mongoloids may have wandered into the american continent, and coupled with the adventurous migrating Aryans, their integration became the American Indians?

The american indians bears little resemblance to the Chinese. They look more Aryans than Chinese.

However, perhaps a significant smaller group of Aryans wandered into China and due to the mass of mongoloid there, due to the smaller integeration, the characterics of Chinese became unique?

Questions of which I have no answer, except only upon closer examinations of the ethnic types and using logic to form a hypothesis...a starting point for further research, analysis and debate, and still with no answer unless one is capable of time travel...

PS. Just a note, it doesnt really matter now anymore, of what we were once before. What matters now is who we are today and how we can integrate furthur to evolve mankind to a better existance, not by culling, but helping one another to reach our best potential to further mankind and take to the stars.




[edit on 31-1-2010 by SeekerofTruth101]

most likely american indians are descendants of a altai related tribe judging by their languages.

tepec which means hill in aztec compared to tepe which means hill in turkic

Originally posted by kagegyou

I've tried to search for some details of the map.
The map being shown at that website is most probably a replica of a map made by the North Koreans (the Joseon Dynasty).

It was based on Giulio Aleni's Complete map of all the countries (萬國全圖) in the 17th Century. At that time, China is in the era of Ming Dynasty, a lot later than Shang Dynasty.
source:
zh.wikipedia.org...
big5.lrn.cn...
(both in Chinese)

As for the usage of 倭, Japan started being referred to as "日本国" during the time when Wu Zetian(武則天) ruled, in the era of Tang Dynasty, at around 618-907AD.
Since the map is created at a much later date, that is why Japan is shown as "日本国" on it.

Apart from these, the eleventh emperor of the Shang Dynasty should be "Zhong Ding" (仲丁) but not shandu.
I've spent a lot of time reading different sorts of things but just can't figure out who shandu is or what shandu is. It will be a lot better if the original text in Chinese could be found.

Very nice answer, thanks. You confirmed my suspicions.

Another thing I noticed later...overlyaing some parts, the map has a very precise, squared, grid-like background eminating from and terminating in the polar regions. I've never seen anything like that on truly ancient maps, either Eastern or Western.

Thanks again for the good info.



[edit on 1/31/10 by silent thunder]

Originally posted by bigspud
it means there are no native americans.

Say First Americans, then.

As in, 'I got here first and claim this land for me and mine'.

Sheesh.

Our People tell it that China was settled by Cherokees. Among others.


[edit on 31-1-2010 by Chakotay]

reply to post by calcoastseeker


I believe it. My neighbors are of Native American Ancestry and they just look Asian down to the face. And with the addition of Europe in the early 1500 and 1600's you can say that the Pretty much every one has at least Asian or European ancestry in them.

Shang oracle-bone script of prior to 1,000 BCE was found of 9 pictographs inscribed on the belly of a 66 lb "ogre" (fat man) found in the summer of 1920 by William Chalmers just SW of Rocky Mtn Natl Park near the S shore of Granby Reservoir! This is good confirmation... thanks!

Originally posted by silent thunder
Very nice answer, thanks. You confirmed my suspicions.

Another thing I noticed later...overlyaing some parts, the map has a very precise, squared, grid-like background eminating from and terminating in the polar regions. I've never seen anything like that on truly ancient maps, either Eastern or Western.

Thanks again for the good info.



[edit on 1/31/10 by silent thunder]

You're welcome.Since I have been a silent viewer for quite some time, so I reckon I may also try to contribute to the thread since Chinese is my native language.

I don't know if their idea of native Americans being descendants of Chinese is valid or not. As stated in the article, they have a lot more maps in the book. It would be nice if they can include a more relevant map in the article, but not a 17th Century one.

This theory makes sense, and is consistent with the Out of Africa theory. As members of the genus Homo migrated out of Africa they adapted to their new environments and became what are today (For a more detailed explanation, since I'm leaving out quite a lot, Google search the theory).

I imagine that as groups of Chinese people migrated out of China, the adaptations to the region now known as North America, would result in what we commonly call the Native Americans.

I don't think this is really confirmed by Native American oral history... or tradition... which is probably why it's not so widely accepted. Native Americans may find something like this offensive... or not... sadly I'm not an expert on their culture... so... I can't really say anything about them with 100% certainty.

It is a very fascinating possibility, and I look forward to reading more about this subject!