Saturn....The winged disk...NINIB..Planet Hex

There is a lot to cover so let's get started.

Not all of this is mine, and will link to the articles in the following post(s).

The main points...

1. Saturn is the Eye of Providence...not the sun.
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2. Saturn was in a different place only 12500 years ago and is what the "sphinx" is guarding....the sphinx of the "EYE".....Saturn's "cornia". The sphinx is what the greeks refer to as an Erinyes, part bat or snake and part dog. Joshua and Caleb
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3. Saturns rings used to be many more "bands". Much of that water, ice and carbon slamming into the earth like a "Diamond saw blade" is what caused the earth to pick up so much water and mass and tore the once solid land mass (like mars) into the growing mass it has become.
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Saturn ripped the earth a new one...literally. Like a helicopter blade..."saturn reference" strafing the ground, so did the outer rings slice like the "double edged sword from his "mouth" into the earth casting his "seed".

This is awesome, now imagine what it looked like when that was shredding the earth!!


This is what caused the wobble and pole shift and rapid icing of a once tropical Atlantis, now called Antarctica....The Sun left it's womb and the addition of all that water and the earth loosing it's heat source internally caused the worlds rapid ice age. You can see the gash it left open...as above, so below. Rather female in appearance i'd say...
"The land of the Sun"
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4.

In Babylon he was called Ninib (Not Nibiru, but Ninib)**and was an agricultural deity. Saturn, called Kronos by the Greeks, was, at the dawn of the Ages of the Gods, the Protector and Sower of the Seed and his wife, Ops, (called Rhea by the Greeks) was a Harvest Helper. Saturn was one of the Seven Titans or Numina and with them, reigned supreme in the Universe. The Titans were of incredible size and strength and held power for untold ages, until they were deposed by Jupiter.
**added by me

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The first inhabitants of the world were the children of Terra (Mother Earth) and Caelus (Father Sky=Uranus). These creatures were very large and manlike, but without human qualities. They were the qualities of Earthquake, Hurricane and Volcano living in a world where there was yet no life. There were only the irresistible forces of nature creating mountains and seas. They were unlike any life form known to man.

Three of these creatures were monstrously huge with one hundred hands and fifty heads. Three others were individually called Cyclops, because each had only one enormous eye in the middle of their foreheads. Then, there were the Titans, seven of them, formidably large and none of whom were purely destructive. One was actually credited with saving man after creation.

Caelus/Uranus hated the children with the fifty heads. As each was born he placed it under the earth. Terra(Earth) was enraged by the treatment of her children by their father and begged the Cyclopes and the Titans to help her put an end to the cruel treatment. Only one Titan, Saturn, responded. Saturn lay in wait for his father and castrated him with his sickle (His Rings). From Caelus'/Uranus's blood sprang the Giants, a fourth race of monsters, and the Erinyes (the Furies), whose purpose was to punish sinners. They were referred to as "those who walk in darkness" and were believed to have writhing snakes for hair and eyes that cried blood. Though eventually all the monsters were driven from Earth, the Erinyes are to remain until the world is free of sin.

Side note:
Greek mythology the Erinýes (Ἐρινύες, pl. of Ἐρινύς, Erinýs; lit. "the angry ones") or Eumenídes (Εὐμενίδες, pl. of Εὐμενίς; lit. "the gracious ones") or Furies in Roman mythology were female, chthonic deities of vengeance or supernatural personifications of the anger of the dead.(**Thus across all cultures the serpent represents the dead) They represent regeneration and the potency of creation, which both consumes and empowers. A formulaic oath in the Iliad (iii.278ff; xix.260ff) invokes them as "those who beneath the earth punish whosoever has sworn a false oath." Burkert suggests they are "an embodiment of the act of self-cursing contained in the oath".[1]
**added by me

When the mighty Titan Cronus/Saturn castrated his father Uranus and threw his genitalia into the sea (**the asteroid belt), the Erinyes emerged from the drops of blood, while Aphrodite was born from the crests of seafoam. According to a variant account, they issued from an even more primordial level—from Nyx, "Night". Their number is usually left indeterminate. Virgil, probably working from an Alexandrian source, recognized three: Alecto ("unceasing," who appeared in Virgil's Aeneid), Megaera ("grudging"), and Tisiphone ("avenging murder"). Dante followed Virgil in depicting the same three-charactered triptych of Erinyes; in Canto IX of the Inferno they confront the poets at the gates of the city of Dis. The heads of the Erinyes, whom the two poets met in Canto IV, were wreathed with serpents (compare Gorgon) and their eyes dripped with blood, rendering their appearance rather horrific. Sometimes they had the wings of a bat or bird and the body of a dog...**"Sphinx".
**added by me

With the deposing of his father(Uranus), Saturn became the ruler of the Universe for untold ages and he reigned with his sister, Ops, who also became his wife.

It was prophesied that one day Saturn would lose power when one of his children would depose him. To prevent this from happening, each time Ops delivered a child Saturn would immediately devour it. When her sixth child, Jupiter, was born, Rhea had him spirited away to the island of Crete. She then wrapped a stone in his swaddling clothes. Her deception was complete when Saturn devoured it, thinking it was the child. When Jupiter was grown, he secured the job of cup-bearer to his father. With the help of Terra, his grandmother, Jupiter fed his father a potion that caused him to vomit up Jupiter's five siblings, Vesta (Hestia), Ceres (Demeter), Juno (Hera), Pluto (Hades), and Neptune (Poseidon).

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A devastating war that nearly destroyed the Universe (But created a new one.)**ensued between Saturn and his five brothers and Jupiter and his five brothers and sisters. Jupiter persuaded the fifty headed monsters to fight with him which enabled him to make use of their weapons of thunder, lightning and earthquake. He also convinced the Titan Prometheus, who was incredibly wise, to join his side. With his forces, Jupiter was victorious and the Olympians reigned supreme. Saturn and his brothers were imprisoned in the Tartarus, a dark, gloomy region at the end of the Earth.
**added by me

In Roman mythology, when Jupiter ascended the throne, Saturn fled to Rome and established the Golden Age, a time of perfect peace and harmony, which lasted as long as he reigned. In memory of the Golden Age, the Feast of Saturnalia was held every year in the winter at the Winter Solstice. During this time no war could be declared, slaves and masters ate at the same table, executions were postponed, and it was a season for giving gifts. This was a time of total abandon and merry making. It refreshed the idea of equality, of a time when all men were on the same level. Christians adopted the feast and renamed it Christmas. When the festival ended, the tax collectors appeared and all money owed out to government, landlords, or debtors had to be accounted for.This is another side to Saturn and its ruling sign, Capricorn: the settling of accounts. The time of the winter solstice is when the Sun enters the sign Capricorn.

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Hesiod wrote of the five ages of mankind: Gold, Silver, two ages of Bronze and an age of Iron. The Age of Gold was the purest age, when no labor was required and weather was always pleasant. It was virtually a place of pleasant surroundings and of abundance. Death was not an unpleasant eventuality and people occupied their time in pleasant pursuits. Cronus ruled over this Golden Age.

5.

Saturn takes a total of 29.7 Earth years to complete a single orbit around the Sun – or 10,832 days. In other words, if you lived on Saturn, and celebrated your 2nd birthday, you would be almost 60 Earth years old.

Saturn orbits the Sun at an average distance of 1.43 billion km, or 9.58 astronomical unit (1 astronomical unit, or AU, is the same as the distance from the Earth to the Sun).

Saturn has a very similar axial tilt to Earth – it's tilted at an angle of 26.73°. And this means that Saturn has seasons, very similar to the way we have seasons on Earth. Of course, on Saturn, the seasons change from cold, to colder depending on which hemisphere is receiving sunlight.

Notice the Hex in this next clip, as the movie camera lens..."Eye".

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Quoted sources from wikipedia and britanica.

More to come...for those who've seen Avatar...were gunna have some fun connection time, let's open the box. Hang tight I've got a lot of stuff to put up, so forgive me if I lag...

Peace

Well done for you're research first of all!

Really enjoyed reading into this. S&F

Regards,

UA

I have thoughts but will reserve them for the end.

Right now it's cut and paste...but I promise i have some things to say.

Next are some excerpt from "The Road to Saturn(Excerpts from an Autobiographical Essay)"Dwardu Cardona

IV

One of the first things I unearthed was that the idea of cosmic catastrophism did not originate with Velikovsky. Granted that he might not have been aware of his precursors when he first embarked on his work, Velikovsky himself soon realized it and, despite the accusations of his detractors, did not hide the fact. Without taking into account what the ancients and present primitive peoples have had to say about the subject, free thinkers have been writing on cosmic catastrophism since the 17th century. Among the best known have been William Whiston, theologian, mathematician, and deputy at Cambridge to Sir Isaac Newton; Ignatius Donnelly, member of congress, reformer, and politician extaordinaire: Hans Hoerbiger and Philipp Fauth, the one a self-styled cosmologist, the other a renowned selenologist, who collaborated amid an "ill-tempered battle of books" during the rise of the Nazi regime; and Hans Schindler Bellamy, a British student of mythology who became Hoerbiger's disciple in the English-speaking world. There were a few others and while their hypotheses, long since relegated to the dust bins of history, varied from one another, they had one thing in common: They all emphasized a dissatisfaction with the then- prevailing views concerning the nature of the solar system and its formation, to say nothing about its later history.

On the mythological front, it was not long before I had to accept that the deities of the ancient nations originated as personifications of cosmic bodies, prime among which were the very planets of the solar system. It did not take Velikovsky, or any of his precursors, to convince me of this. The ancients, who were in the best position to know what they themselves believed in, so stated in many of their texts. It therefore struck me as strange that most modern mythologists would go to such great pains in attempting to explain mythological characters and themes in anything but cosmic terms. In this respect, whatever else may be said of him, Velikovsky proved superior. Not that he was always correct when identifying specific deities with specific planets but, had he dug deeper in a field which I now know to have been novel to him, he would have discovered that, in many instances, the ancients themselves had already supplied the identities of their gods. Where they did not, the rules of comparative mythology unerringly lead the way. But that is something that only crept slowly on me as my research continued to unfold.

After reading Velikovsky I should not have been surprised at the sheer amount of mythological tales which hinted at, referred to, and sometimes explicitly described catastrophic events. These appeared of such magnitude that, were they to be believed, they could only be explained by the shaking of the Earth's framework. Predominant among these disasters was the universal deluge, which the Biblical account associates with Noah. Moreover, the cosmic thread that ran through the ages was intertwined with these disasters so that it did not take long to realize that Velikovsky had been right when he insisted that catastrophism was literally heaven-caused.

What became more and more obvious was that the celestial order with which ancient man was so obsessed was entirely different from the one we are presently acquainted with. Ancient man described the Sun as rising in the west, setting in the east, stopping in mid-course, and turning right around. According to ancient texts, the planets seem to have occupied different positions in the sky; they moved in different orbits and, in all cases, looked entirely different from the way they do now. Prime among these examples was the planet Venus which, very much as Velikovsky had claimed, was described as having had the form of a comet which followed a changing orbit entirely different from the one it follows at present.

As everyone knows, the planets, like the stars, appear to the naked eye as nothing more than pin-points of light in the night sky. Yet ancient traditions seem to leave no doubt that these same planets, often described and even depicted as spheres and/or discs, were viewed at close quarters and often in terrifying circumstances. Thus most of mythology turns out to be a reflection of cosmic disorders which ancient man seems to have witnessed and survived. In this generality, if in nothing else, Velikovsky was entirely correct.

VI

Catastrophism betokens destruction, but our ancient forebears seem to have been just as obsessed with creation. Tales of creation are among the most abundant in the world's repository of mythology. Our ancestors not only described the creation of the world, they did so as if they had actually witnessed the occurence. There is no point in countering that such cosmogonical tales are the result of philosophical reasoning. It does not seem possible that primitive peoples, with whom it all started, and who were separated by vast mountain, desert and ocean stretches, would arrive at similar, and sometimes identical ideas in their philosophical quest for primal beginnings.

Predominant among such identical ideas, the recognition of which was to carry me far, was the shedding of a bright light, exactly as described in Genesis, at the very commencement of creation. Proponents of the diffusion theory might accuse me of gullibility, but my contention is that such ideas would be too unnatural to survive diffusion and the test of time had there not been some universal cause in the real world upon which they might have been based.

Had primitive reason required the abolishing of an imagined primal darkness by the shedding of light, logic would have chosen the Sun as the source of that sudden illumination. What would have been more logical than to have the creation of the Sun dissolve this fictional gloom? And yet in all cases where the light of creation is spoken of, the Sun was said to have been created later. This posed an enigma that took me long to resolve. When I finally did, it was again through Velikovsky.

VII

It was during my investigation of the myths of creation that I finally came face to face with Saturn. Actually I had been bumping into him from the beginning, but it was not until now that I saw this planetary deity as something more than a murky figure lurking behind some of the most engaging mythological motifs I had yet encountered. From then on every avenue that I followed brought me back into his shadow. As intrigued as I had been with the idea of cosmic catastrophism, this new turn of events piqued my interest even more and, in the end, there was no escaping the clutches of this most ancient mythological character. I trapped myself in the Saturnian maze and to this day I find myself still meandering within it, hoping to come to its end before my life does.

In Worlds in Collision, Velikovsky had offered next to nothing about Saturn. He only hinted, somewhat teasingly, that, prior to the catastrophe of the Exodus, the Earth had suffered a more severe series of disasters, one of them being the deluge, at the hands of the giant gas planets. What I was not yet aware of was that, originally, Worlds in Collision had contained a long section on the tribulations caused by the planets Jupiter and Saturn. Prior to its publication, Velikovsky had been advised to drop this section of his work which he then shelved with the intention of expanding it into a future prequel. In a moment of desperation at the manner in which the scientific establishment had castigated him, Velikovsky once threatened to take this opus with him to the grave. But the moment passed and the work was preserved. Completed posthumously with the help of Jan Sammer, it now rests in the archives of unpublished manuscripts held in custody by the Velikovsky estate.

What I, on the other hand, was uncovering about Saturn was beginning to puzzle me to no end. Peeping from behind this and that datum, I kept coming across these strange allusions to Saturn as having once been an immobile planet. How could a planet, at close quarters or otherwise, have not appeared to move across the sky?

Other textual bits and pieces kept hinting at Saturn having once occupied a position in Earth's north celestial pole. As a pole star, Saturn's apparent immobility would be explained but there was nothing in celestial mechanics that would accommodate any planet in that role. To be quite frank, I had no idea what to do with this information other than to disbelieve it. I therefore decided to ignore all such allusions and put them down to misinterpretation by those early writers who had striven to record the beliefs of their more ancient forebears. I should have asked myself: Would all these misinterpreters have misinterpreted in the same way?

More coming...

reply to post by Unstable Affliction


Thank you...

Great thread on Saturn, S&F!

This planet has always fascinated me, even before the image of the spinning "hyperdimensional" vortex was released to the public from Cassini. Isn't that amazing to think that when you turn 60 years old, Saturn will have only seen 2 years? Incredible.

More cut and paste...sorry for the reading but it takes a little to understand this fully...charge on!!

Saturn went Nova

IX

In February of 1970 I heard Velikovsky lecture at the University of British Columbia, in which city I had finally dug my roots. Until then Velikovsky had been very reticent about the part Saturn had played in the early catastrophes. Even so, that same year, an article written by Joseph Goodavage, appearing in the September issue of SAGA, contained a new clue which, so to say, made me prick up my ears. Goodavage, who had interviewed Velikovsky, stated that the good doctor was somewhat guarded when it came to novae or "exploding" stars. "I prefer not to discuss [the subject]," Velikovsky is there reported as saying. "It would disclose too much about my future plans and work."

Could Velikovsky have been hinting that the light of creation, with which I was still grappling, had been shed by a nova? - I found myself wondering. This could only have been so if the "exploding" star happened to be one of those relatively close to Earth. Even so, its blinding radiation would have been drastically diminished at that distance. The flare, even if prominent, would have been a far cry from what the later Hindus were to describe as a light that shone as bright as a "thousand suns."

Finding answers

X

In June of 1971 I wrote to Velikovsky concerning some points of disagreement I had with him. My critique actually related to one of the episodes contained in his Ages in Chaos, but I also queried him about a number of issues re Worlds in Collision. I was not yet privy to Velikovsky's home address in Princeton so I mailed my lengthy letter in care of his publisher, Doubleday & Company. L. P. Ashmead, who was then Velikovsky's editor, was kind enough to forward my missive to Valais, Switzerland, where Velikovsky was lecturing at the University of the New World. It was there that Velikovsky finally divulged to the world, if not in detail at least in outline, what the excised portion of Worlds in Collision had contained. Eight years later that lecture was transcribed by Jan Sammer and published in the fall issue of KRONOS.

Velikovsky did not get around to answering me until January of '72. I cannot claim that this was the start of a lengthy correspondence with him for, in truth, we corresponded but little and only sporadically. But he did take well to my criticism and his attitude to my work was encouraging.

On February 22 of that same year, the CBC aired an hour-long documentary by Henry ZEmel that was devoted to Velikovsky and his work. In it, Velikovsky touched upon some of the basic ideas he had aired at Valais, and his views on Saturn became then a matter of public knowledge.

Although I did not see it until later, it was through this documentary that I first learned about Velikovsky's ideas concerning the universal deluge. In a way I was gratified because the cause of the deluge, in Velikovsky's view, was not entirely dissimilar to what I had described in my earlier work of fiction, long since permanently shelved. Thus Velikovsky spoke of two filaments of water -- "because I cannot [rightly] call them comets," he said -- through which the Earth had passed. But there, I must confess, the similarity ended. It was the manner in which these watery filaments were born that I, like others, found most illuminating. Velikovsky's scenario of the flood was this:

Saturn and Jupiter had once been much closer to Earth. Saturn was a water planet. More than that, like Jupiter, it had once been a "dark" star. Through a near collision of the two, which took place somewhere between five and ten thousand years ago, Saturn erupted in nova-like brilliance. The water it ejected from its body took the form of two watery filaments which, seven days after the flare-up, hit the Earth and caused the deluge. The water, which fell on Earth in torrential rains, was warm and salty and resulted in more than doubling the Earth's hydrosphere. Jupiter reacted differently. It fissioned and expelled from itself the comet that was later to cause the catastrophe of the Exodus before turning into the planet we now call Venus.

Bizarre as this scenario appeared at the time -- and how tame it now looks when compared to what else was yet to come -- it answered one major riddle which had been plaguing me ever since I had entered the Saturnian maze. Although Velikovsky himself does not seem to have been much concerned with the myths of primal beginnings, I finally had the answer to the blinding light of creation. I realized then what Saturn had to do with this most mystifying of events and why it had been misunderstood down through the ages. With the disclosure of Saturn's flare-up, which Velikovsky himself, while proposing it, had badly misapprehended, the myths connected with the creation of the cosmos began to fit neatly into a larger picture. It was at this point that I decided to give up fiction and publicly enter the Velikovsky debate.

XVI

In the fall 1975 issue of KRONOS, Greenberg and Sizemore published a half-page article titled "Saturn and Genesis." In it they briefly analyzed Maurice Jastrow's 1910 paper, "Sun and Saturn," in which the Assyro-Babylonian belief in Saturn as a sun that shone at night is discussed at some length. This was an idea I had already encountered but, because of Velikovsky's belief that Saturn had been a "dark" star, I had been assuming that the luminary had shone, much as it does now, through the Sun's reflected light. When I unearthed and read Jastrow's original paper, I became convinced that Saturn, despite the author's expected disclaimer, must have been a true sun of night, radiating its own light. With this new datum, my reconstruction of Saturnian events took on a more coherent chronological sequence. The scenario, bizarre in many ways, and faulty in others, evolved into the following:

In prehistoric times, Saturn was the most conspicuous object in the sky. This body was observed by ancient man as a rotating sphere, which means that markings of some sort were clearly visible on its surface. Since tradition insists there was no way of telling time in those "days," these markings must have been of a fluctuating nature with no specific form retaining a recognizable shape that could have been timed with each rotation. Fluctuating surface markings bespeak an active atmosphere, perhaps in turmoil, and the impression one receives, especially in view of what transpired later, is that Saturn was an unstable gaseous body.

Unlike the Sun, the luminary did not rise or set. It simply hung suspended in the north celestial pole, which could only mean that it shared the same axis of rotation with Earth. More than that -- and this was a puzzle I had not yet solved -- the texts speak of this planetary deity as having ruled alone and in darkness. The Sun, it is stated, was completely absent from the sky.

Man remembers this age as a time of perpetual night. But for Saturn to have been visible, it must have shed some light. Since the light did not dissolve the gloom, the illumination must have been feeble. For fauna and flora to have thrived, Saturn must also have shed warmth. Man himself went completely naked. He knew nothing of chilling winds, cold rain, of snow, or ice.

During this period, the Saturnian orb does not seem to have been paid much heed. It was simply there, invoking neither fear nor reverence. But then an event transpired of such stupendousness that it went down in the annals of mankind as Day One. Saturn suddenly flared up in nova-like brilliance, flooding the Earth and its inhabitants with a blinding light. The act of creation had commenced.

When the light of the flare-up finally ebbed, man was presented with a ghastly sight. Spewing out from the central orb was a multi-spiralled black mass that revolved and wound itself around its parent. Viewed as a monster which the transformed god had to subdue, this was also the chaos out of which creation progressed.

It seems to have been precisely at this point that the Sun made its appearance. Day now succeeded night. Time had come into the world.

Saturn itself continued to shine as a sun in its own right. It was bright enough to keep the stars, except those of first magnitude, from being seen. It was not however as bright as the Sun and, during the day, it paled into a cloud-like ghost.

Two filaments detached themselves from Saturn's spiralling matter and were temporarily "lost" in the reaches of space. The rest of this watery debris congealed into a ring around the orb. The god had organized his cosmos. It was this "world" that man had witnessed the god create, for in truth the creation did not originally refer to a terrestrial realm. In time this ring resolved itself into a series of concentric bands -- first into three and later, for the longest time, into seven. These were the original seven "heavens" or seven "earths." They were also the seven stages of creation, long after misunderstood as seven "days."

The light from the unveiled Sun illuminated Saturn's encircling ring as a gigantic crescent, and later as seven nested ones. The other half of the band was only dimly lit, forming a crescent in shadow that was nonetheless visible. Both crescents revolved in unison, perpetually chasing each other, around the stationary orb. This, together with the now rising and setting Sun, enabled man to calculate the passage of time. The visual revolution of these crescents was naturally due to the rotation of the Earth. This means that the Saturn-Earth System must have been at right angles to the Sun-Earth vector (although, as Chris Sherrerd was to point out to me years later, not necessarily perpendicular to the plane of the ecliptic).

Nine smaller satellites, which were not formerly apparent, now appeared to revolve around Saturn. In mythology they became the nine followers, or company, of the god. A cruciform star-shape also appeared as four bright rays radiating from the central orb. Rightly or wrongly, I initially interpreted these as an atmospheric illusion.

A singular beam of light also appeared to taper upward from Earth's northern horizon, connecting our humble abode to Saturn's glorious realm in the sky. All mythologies speak of this singular beam, this polar column or cosmic tree, this bond which tied heaven to Earth. Despite the apparent impossibility of the system I had managed to reconstruct, nothing perplexed me more at the time than this effulgent axis mundi. Together with the puzzle of the primeval darkness, this so-called world-axis stymied me. What could it really have been? It is obvious now in retrospect that I still retained a mental block. Had I taken the ancients at their word, as I had resolved I would, this problem would have been solved with the rest. When the answer was finally in my hands, as in the case of Saturn's flare-up, it was only because it was given to me by another.

Mythology also speaks of a universal world mountain located at the north. This was a phenomenon I had understood as a lithic bulge that was raised in gravitational response to Saturn's close proximity. The axis mundi would have rested on top of this bulge which would have accounted for the world-wide belief in the archaic deity resting on his mountain of glory.

Various atmospheric phenomena also appeared in conjunction with this polar sun in the form of parhelia and Parry halo arcs, although these, because of their very nature, were understandably impermanent. The most amazing aspect of the Saturnian structure, however, was the uncanny resemblance it bore to the human form, especially around the hour of midnight, when the sunlit crescent of its encircling ring(s) appeared as two uplifted arms. The entire apparition was like a resplendent giant towering above the world for all mankind to see.

As I have stated elsewhere, no earthly description can ever hope to do this phenomenon justice. We will never be able to fully appreciate the impact it must have had on the primitive psyche. The Sun itself might have been brighter, but Saturn was much more glorious. For untold generations Saturn's strange apparition became the very focus of man's existence. It was the fountainhead of all religious beliefs and, more than that, the impetus behind the rise of civilization.

Unstable as this system might have been, it managed to sustain itself for an unspecified but long period of time. Its formation ushered in an era that mythology remembers as the Golden Age. This was the Edenic childhood of mankind, a time of prosperity and peace, during which the earth was said to have given freely of its bounty. It was an age that man was forever after to recall with nostalgic longing. But in time it, also, came to an end.

The two filaments that had detached themselves from Saturn's former spiral had gone into orbit around the Sun. Each successive passage had brought them back into close proximity of the Saturnian system. These were seen as monsters which periodically threatened the god. Eventually at least one of them collided with the Earth. Composed mainly of water, this filament dispersed itself across the Earth in a deluge that lasted for days. Thus the universal flood was a direct result of Saturn's initial flare-up.

Saturn, with its cosmos, became unhinged. It was now seen to circle around the sky as the Earth, knocked off its balance by the impact of the collision, began to wobble and topple. Slowly but surely the Saturnian apparition slid down the sides of heaven and sank beyond Earth's trembling horizon. Earth had actually turned head over heels. The god of mankind, dying his death, had drowned in the deluge.

With the overturning of the Earth, the Sun reversed its path across the sky, rising where it had formerly set and setting where it had formerly risen. The quarters of the world had been displaced.

But all was not lost. After a while the Earth righted itself and Saturn was seen to return to his post in his former glory. The god had risen from the dead. To others he had been saved by building an ark. Noah was actually Saturn - and where was my work of fiction now? - while his ark was the sunlit crescent. Textual evidence of Noah having sailed through the sky actually exists. Moreover, the word "ark" derives from a root that, in more than one language, translates into an ancient name for Saturn.

The panic with which mankind had witnessed the death and disappearance of its divinity was temporarily allayed. But, ere long, it became apparent that something was amiss with the deity. The central orb lost its brightness; wrinkles and blotches began to appear over its surface. The luminary's gaseous envelope was re-asserting itself. To those who looked on in horror, the risen deity had been struck with leprosy; to others, he was beginning to show signs of his advancing age.

In the end, whatever force had held the planets rotating on the same axis dissipated. The polar column severed itself from the main body while the ringed structure was seen to break up. Saturn's cosmos had become unglued and literally fell apart. The god, to some still dead, had been dismembered.

Earth and Saturn parted company. The giant planet, growing ever dimmer, was seen to move slowly away. No longer a sun, it grew smaller as it rose above the Earth until, eventually, it became the pin-point of light we now see in the night where it was free to reconstruct a new system of rings. In the surrounding sea of stars that now became the order of the night, mankind saw the dissected members of its god.

Thus Saturn was the only deity who was born his own son; who lived on Earth; who died and descended to the underworld; who rose again from the dead and finally ascended into heaven. If the tale sounds familiar, you now know its origin.

This, then, was the story of Saturn as I had been able to piece it together. It did not come easily to me. I had to struggle to accept it. I had made many errors and many were the times I had to retrace my steps. Nor was the version recorded above the final one. I knew I had to refine it further and, to this day, I am continually revising it. But at the time I was more than convinced that, in general, its outline was basically sound.

The truth is that the story is more complicated than I have made it appear. For the sake of clarity I have refrained from encumbering the scenario with its geologic implications, as I have also refrained from delineating the parts that Mars, Venus, and Jupiter were forced to play in these primeval events. In a while I shall have something to say about both these topics but, in the meantime, I should continue with the major events in my career that led me ever closer to the Saturnian truth.

[edit on 27-1-2010 by letthereaderunderstand]

Originally posted by DocEmrick
Great thread on Saturn, S&F!

This planet has always fascinated me, even before the image of the spinning "hyperdimensional" vortex was released to the public from Cassini. Isn't that amazing to think that when you turn 60 years old, Saturn will have only seen 2 years? Incredible.

Thanks Doc

I've read that they have found solid structures, 6 blocks or "monoliths" under that hexagon...Giant Magnets.

The Vortex is "the Eye" of the Needle or Ops...the wife of saturn who is also Opus or Opis the snake...wisdom....The apple a hexagon of the eye....

Notice how the "Death star" has a trench around it..it shows up with Darth (V)Adar.....Saturn V.

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


Truly, you are falling for his claptrap?

I would suggest you look deeper into the mental stability of the person who promotes such nonsense. ("Velikovsky" is his name???). Because he displays an appalling lack of scientific understanding, and does not assist in anyone's "search" for any so-called "truths" regarding the planet Saturn.

Saturn went Nova...

No, it did not.


But, worse:

Saturn and Jupiter had once been much closer to Earth.

No. They were not.

Saturn was a water planet.

No, it was not.

The rest of it is quasi-delusional semi-religious hogwash.

You may as well get Kent Hovind in on this too, his "theories" are equally nutty.

Oh, and don't forget L Ron Hubbard and HIS nut-base of followers (if only we COULD forget hem, and IF they'd all go away...) But, birds of feather, all of them, just with different plumage.

Sorry to be so blunt.

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


That's awesome. I'm going through your last post now. There's so much untold history of our solar system, and the exploits of those who came before us. Covered up to keep the cycle continuously moving.

Almost done...

XX

One of my most stimulating correspondents during this time, and for many years afterwards, was Frederic Jueneman. As I later found out, he had known about Talbott's work on Saturn since 1972. In discussing the subject with me, Jueneman told me that anyone who wanted his ideas could have them for the asking. Emboldened by this offer, I did not hesitate to pick his mind. Although I did not always accept whatever he threw at me, he managed to solve many a problem for me. In March of 1976 I asked him if he had any ideas on what could have constituted the fabric of the polar column, or, as I phrased it, the trunk of the cosmic tree. His reply reached me that same month and, when I read it, I felt like kicking my own behind.

Jueneman supplied me with more than I had asked for. To him the axis mundi and world mountain were separate phenomena. Very much as I had, he interpreted the latter as a tidal uplift of land. But the most important thing he disclosed was the mechanics he had worked out to account for the polar column. Its major constituents he had ascertained to have been air and water vapor. According to him, these were "carried upward towards the nul-gravity at the apex between the two planets" in "a columnar Rankine vortex." To put it in a nut-shell, the axis mundi would thus have been a cosmic tornado seen from a distance. The fact is that various texts which had already passed through my hands had actually described the axis as a cyclone, a whirlwind, or churning hurricane. Had I listened to the collective voice of the ancients, I would have had this solution much earlier. I vowed never to make that mistake again.

The Rankine vortex, if that is what it really was, answered another mystery. On the basis of an Assyro-Babylonian text, de Santillana and von Dechend had inferred the occurrence of a second deluge caused by Mars. If, now, the polar column consisted of water vapor, the immense volume of moisture it would have contained would have been released when Mars swooped by and severed it. As the column twisted and sank in its death throes, it would have poured its water on Earth's northern hemisphere. This would account for those traditions which insist on a calamitous flood that roared down from the north.

Going further, Jueneman also described the effect of a bolus flow complete with Coriolis tendency which, at times, would have split the central pillar into two serpentine spouts. Entwining about each other, these were later to give rise to the god's twisted legs and the mythic caduceus popularly associated with Mercury.

Throughout the years, Jueneman remained unconvinced of Saturn's former northern placement. As far as celestial mechanics were understood, this system seemed unviable. According to Jueneman, two bodies rotating on the same axis could only have sustained themselves by the additional revolution around a barycenter which would have lent the system a slight wobble within narrow confines. In the case of a Saturn-Earth coupling, this barycentre would have positioned the Earth within the Roche limit, with devastating results.

Thus, right from the start, Jueneman deviated from Talbott's scheme and propounded a model of his own. Basing the genesis of his system on a theory proposed in 1969 by R.A. Lyttleton, he opted for Mars as the northern body of myth. He thus inadvertently accepted a modified version of the "bottom" half of Talbott's model while discarding the rest. Jueneman first presented his model in the pages ofIndustrial Research, updated it in his 1975 Limits of Uncertainty, and continued to work sporadically on it model through the years.

Because Mars is closer in size and mass to Earth, the problem of the Roche limit is somewhat alleviated in Jueneman's scheme. Moreover, Jueneman saw the encircling rings as the outpouring of his Rankine vortex, with the vaporous material sucked from Earth being spewed into space where it formed an ever changing series of concentricities. In this scheme the rings would have existed in independent suspension between Mars and the Earth, only appearing to surround Mars through earth-bound perspective. As the rings dissipated into space, they would have been continually replenished by the vortex. The Moon, according to Jueneman, would have orbited as a governor around the central column.

My major objection to all this concerned the ancient insistence on the identity of Saturn as the immobile north celestial sun. Nowhere in the intricacies of myth had I discovered any direct evidence that Mars ever occupied this position.

IIIHard on the heels of "Saturn's Age," Talbott released a slightly longer paper titled "Saturn: Universal Monarch and Dying God." Offered as a special publication through the Research Communications Network, it consisted of a numbered thesis that included the outline of events connected with the polar configuration's dissolution that he had earlier mentioned.

To begin with, Talbott proposed a tentative date for the cosmic catastrophism associated with Saturn. Whereas Velikovsky had opted for a period between 5 and 10,000 years ago as the time slot within which the universal deluge had occurred, Talbott reduced the time span to "within the past 6 - 8,000 years." To date, neither of them has given as much as a hint concerning the evidence behind the selection of these dates.

Talbott described the bending of the axis mundi as the beginning of the Saturnian destruction. The bent pillar would have lent the configuration a hunch-backed appearance that was interpreted by the onlookers as a sign of the god's decrepitude. He said nothing about the mottled appearance of the central orb in this respect.

According to him it was at this point that the cosmic pillar commenced on a churning motion while the ringed structure began to move "in ever widening circles." He gave no indication, however, as to what might have caused this apparent motion.

Still according to Talbott, the deity was seen to devour the seven satellites orbiting around it and that these actually began to disintegrate. Saturn's disappearance was then explained as the clouding of the central orb by the ensuing debris.

The seven disintegrating satellites, in Talbott's view, continued to revolve around the clouded center while spewing their own detritus in a multi-spiralled manner. This spiral eventually segregated itself into the seven concentric bands of myth.

At some point during this destruction, according to Talbott's scheme, Jupiter finally appeared from behind Saturn, "stole" Saturn's encircling band, and then wandered away from the celestial center. Thus Talbott made it clear that the original ringed structure had actually surrounded the hidden Jupiter and that it was only Earth-bound perspective that had made it appear to encircle Saturn. This tenet was not very well explained. In more than one place, Talbott had made it appear that the enclosing band was formed from material ejected by the Saturnian orb. It is hard to conceive that material ejected by one celestial body would encircle another x-miles away. Or was this, according to Talbott, but another celestial illusion in which the primeval matter had actually been ejected by Jupiter? Was it Jupiter then that flared up?

In contradistinction, my scenario had Jupiter appearing from beyond Earth's horizon when the latter flipped over. Saturn and Jupiter were seen to change places. It was said that Saturn made his acquaintance with the southern constellations while the star of the south rose to occupy Saturn's vacated post. In my scheme the seven bands had actually surrounded the Saturnian orb, rather than merely appearing to do so, from long before the dissolution. These disappeared with Saturn when the luminary dropped out of sight. Jupiter was encircled by its own ringed system, which accounts for the apparent "theft." This mythological evidence could actually have been used to predict the later discovery of the Jovian rings. That no one did made us all miss the chance of a lifetime.

According to Talbott, it was this partial destruction of the Saturnian configuration that was later remembered as the universal deluge. Thus, along with de Santillana and von Dechend, but for different reasons, Talbott saw the deluge as a strictly, but perhaps not entirely, celestial event.

In Talbott's scheme, the resurrection of the deity is explained as the clearing of the obscuring debris which again brought the Saturnian orb into full view. Whether the Jovian planet ever returned to its position behind Saturn was not made clear. The second and final destruction, blamed on Mars, was described in terms closer to my scenario, as was the deity's final withdrawal to the "great beyond." Of the planet Venus there was not a single mention in either of Talbott's two papers.

The above mentioned points were not my only disagreements with Talbott's model, but they were the major ones. I mention all this here not because I was obviously right and Talbott wrong for that might not be the case at all, but merely to record our differences as they existed at the time. In the end it may turn out that he was closer to being correct than I was. But one thing was obvious: One of us, or perhaps even both, had confused some of the earlier events associated with the creation of Saturn's cosmos with those connected with its destruction. This brought home one particular lament of the ancients themselves who, among other things, had often stated that the sequence of events had long been forgotten. In any case, I have had many an occasion to change some of my views since then as, naturally enough, so has Talbott. And this is as it should be for we can best progress by constantly discarding, changing, and refining unsatisfactory portions of the theory in an endeavor to get ever closer to the historical truth.

Link to whole article

Alright...give me a sec and I'll get on to my thoughts...

Peace

[edit on 27-1-2010 by letthereaderunderstand]

I really enjoyed reading this. You seem to have much knowledge within you nice thread friend.



[edit on 1/27/10 by Ophiuchus 13]

reply to post by weedwhacker


Hello weedwhacker...

No worries...I am approaching this more based upon what the myths surround. Much of this is not mine, rather an alternate point of view in connecting the myths of antiquity.

Thanks though, I appreciate your comments.

Peace

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


Well.....purely as a mind game and as long as people see it for complete nonsense it is....

Humans have been creating "supernatural" explanations for everything that they did not (yet) have the science to understand, as they observed and could not comprehend natural events, hence the creation of "gods"...this is NOT rational thinking.

AND, this lack of reality-based thinking is very dangerous, because once something turns into a 'religion' or 'belief' system, sooner or later there will be OTHERS who wish to have their "religion" or "belief" system take over, and bloody, horrible wars have been fought, for millenia, as result.

These ideas of his, and others' have about as much basis in actual fact as the notion (from other ancient religions, just to name one) that the Earth is being carried on the back of a giant desert tortoise.

Here, let's see what actual scientists think of this Russian orthodox religious "scholar":

Criticism

Velikovsky's ideas have been almost entirely rejected by mainstream academia (often vociferously so) and his work is generally regarded as erroneous in all its detailed conclusions. Moreover, scholars view his unorthodox methodology (for example, using comparative mythology to derive scenarios in celestial mechanics) as an unacceptable way to arrive at conclusions. Stephen Jay Gould offers a synopsis of the mainstream response to Velikovsky, writing, "Velikovsky is neither crank nor charlatan — although to state my opinion and to quote one of my colleagues, he is at least gloriously wrong ... Velikovsky would rebuild the science of celestial mechanics to save the literal accuracy of ancient legends."

Velikovsky's bestselling and consequently most-criticized book is Worlds in Collision. Astronomer Harlow Shapley, along with others such as Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin, were highly critical of Macmillan's decision to publish the work. The fundamental criticism against this book from the astronomy community was that its celestial mechanics were physically impossible, requiring planetary orbits which do not conform with the laws of conservation of energy and conservation of angular momentum.

en.wikipedia.org...

Certainly, while pure fantasy, and creative in its efforts, no reasonable modern Human can believe in any of this, can they? It can be useful to bring it up, I suppose, so that it can received the appropriate ridicule...and so it doesn't infect the gullible....

reply to post by weedwhacker


He hasn't even posted his thoughts on the subject matter yet. Geeze.


Back to the topic presented, this information falls perfectly into the unsubstantiated reports that TPTB have a strange religious obsession with the planet Saturn, as well as the conspiracy theory that at one time there was an operation that planned to ignite Saturn as a star. Not saying those are true, but they mesh with the material.

I really hope you are not taking any of this as true

Saturn was:

1. Never that close to Earth, and the rings did not carve the earth up

2. Saturn has never had water, its much to cold for water to exist in its liquid form. Plus, the space probes, Pioneer, Voyager 1 and 2 and Cassini has showed that while water is present as ice, the majority of Saturn is composed of ammonium hydrosulfide, and ammonia clouds, and hydrogen and helium. In fact its less dense than water all together

3. Saturn never went Nova, its mass is far to light for that to have occured.

Mots of the science in this thread is bunk

reply to post by weedwhacker


I don't necessarily buy the information for what it is, but I think it's a lot more likely than an invisible man with a white beard creating us out of nothing.

You bring a voice of reason to some threads, but why even participate in kinds like these? Of course the guy is going to get discredited, I think everyone already knows that. It still makes for an interesting discussion between the few of us that want to discuss it.

reply to post by DocEmrick


What??

...as well as the conspiracy theory that at one time there was an operation that planned to ignite Saturn as a star.

Firstly....we have NO type of technology currently to even begin to attempt such a feat...not to mention the incredible amount of additional mass that would be required. People seem to have no concept of astronomy, and its science.

Secondly, that entire "concept" is straight out of a science fiction novel, and motion picture. You may have heard of? "2010: The Year We Make Contact", by Arthur C. Clarke.

Difference is, it was JUPITER, not Saturn, that was turned into a small "star" by the aliens, because the premise of THAT story was the moon Europa, and their (the aliens') long-term plans to foster evolution there, by using Jupiter as a small star.

I mean, it was epic in scope, as a fantasy and science fiction story...and, of course, Jupiter is larger than Saturn (more massive) to begin with...

But it is purely fantasy, and science fiction. I daresay even IF we could somehow amass ALL of the other planets, and add them to Jupiter's mass, it would still bot be sufficient to ignite nuclear fusion reaction. Perhaps a cosmologist who reads this could chime in, do the calculations for us.

(OR, we could assign it as homework for someone who had the time, and wished to learn via the many resources available on the Internet. Simply look up to see how massive a small star would be, then add up all the other planet's masses....)

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
I really hope you are not taking any of this as true

Saturn was:

1. Never that close to Earth, and the rings did not carve the earth up

2. Saturn has never had water, its much to cold for water to exist in its liquid form. Plus, the space probes, Pioneer, Voyager 1 and 2 and Cassini has showed that while water is present as ice, the majority of Saturn is composed of ammonium hydrosulfide, and ammonia clouds, and hydrogen and helium. In fact its less dense than water all together

Mots of the science in this thread is bunk

It's not science, it's myth...Science is based of observable information. Something observable beginning to end that is conclusive, so that it can then be labeled a fact. "Something that goes on even when you stop believing in it"

The rings of Saturn are the most extensive planetary ring system of any planet in the Solar System. They consist of countless small particles, ranging in size from micrometres to metres,[1] that form clumps that in turn orbit about Saturn. The ring particles are made almost entirely of water ice, with some contamination from dust and other chemicals.

link
Where did this water come from?
Also, why would you assume "water planet" means liquid form?

Peace

[edit on 27-1-2010 by letthereaderunderstand]

Originally posted by DocEmrick
reply to post by weedwhacker

 

He hasn't even posted his thoughts on the subject matter yet. Geeze.


Back to the topic presented, this information falls perfectly into the unsubstantiated reports that TPTB have a strange religious obsession with the planet Saturn, as well as the conspiracy theory that at one time there was an operation that planned to ignite Saturn as a star. Not saying those are true, but they mesh with the material.

Yes, "The Lucifer Project" to resurrect the "dead sun"...."the second coming".

reply to post by weedwhacker

That's why it was a "conspiracy theory." Before you rush out of the gate and say all of this stuff, realize that all of this is in theory. Look up the Lucifer Project. Is it true? No. But I'm adding to this discussion. All you seem to be doing here is trolling. Of course I've heard of 2001, and it's sequels, I've read them and watched them. Your arrogant tone is pretty funny. I am constantly stargazing with my telescope, Stellarium, and Linux OS. I'm not an idiot when it comes to Astronomy. Am I an expert? No. Do I believe most of the stuff posted on ATS? No. But I still like to come and talk about it, no matter how outlandish it may sound.

[edit on 27-1-2010 by DocEmrick]