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Message to the Laodicean Church

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posted on Jan, 24 2010 @ 11:18 PM
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I was contemplating the 7 churches when I realized the angel of the seventh church of Laodicea is Lucifer.

Rev 3:14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

For each church that Jesus addresses, he confirms who he is, commends and/or condemns and reminds of the rewards.
The choice of words he uses for each church is the key to unlocking this mystery.

Jesus has to remind the Laodicean church that it is Jesus who was the beginning of the creation of God. God made light the first day. That was the true Light that lighteth
everyman which comes into the world. This church is confusing this true Light with Lucifer, the Light Bearer.

He also is reminder this church that he is the faithful and true witness because this church is in danger of Bearing Witness of the faithless and False Light

15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

The Laodicean church gets the worst report of all the churches and it is no wonder because it is Lucifer who is the angel or Messenger of this seventh church.

17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The exact words that Jesus used to describe the rewards for overcoming is also evidence that Lucifer is the angel of this church.
This church will sit in his throne IF they overcome because this is the desire of this church!

Isaiah 14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne
above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


I am also 100% positive that Michael is the angel of the 6th church of Philadelphia. As for the rest I do not have enough information about the other angels to know where to place them. If I could place all 7 messengers to their coresponding churches I feel like this could be one of the thunders John was not allowed to write down at the time.



posted on Jan, 25 2010 @ 05:37 AM
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reply to post by iamnot
 

I disagree...
...you have confused the angel with the One giving John the instruction to write.

John is instructed to write something to the angel who watches over the Laodicean church...

"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;


The instruction comes from the One described as...
"...the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" Revelation 3:14

Also, "...the beginning of the creation of God" is...

ἀληθινός, ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ:

ἀρχὴ - arche [ar-khay']
Meaning: 1) beginning, origin 2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader 3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause.

This does not refer to the first created...
...but the one who does the creating.

This is also in harmony with John 1:1-3...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

There is no Luciferian reference here.




posted on Jan, 25 2010 @ 07:42 AM
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There is no 'direct' evidence there. I was linking the indirect evidence through the choice of words used by Jesus to adress the 7 churches.

I for one do not believe that the 7 churches are strictly divided into 'christian' sects such as catholic, sda, mormon etc.

If it were Jesus would not address the doctrine of Nicolaitanes, Balam and Jezebel.

A church is a 'body of Christ' not a man made temple and the message is what matters.

Angels were created as messengers of God.
The Scriptures reveal that God created nine orders of angels:
Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominations, Principalities, Powers, Virtues, Archangels, and Angels.

Out of this order come the familiar seven Archangels which include
Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Sariel, and the fallen Lucifer.

Lucifer, though fallen, is still an Angel(messenger). His message is corrupt and it embodies the message of the Laodicean church. The core message of the New Age.

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Moving on, the following scripture is the reason I believe Michael is the angel of the 6h church which was the only one found blameless.

Daniel 10:21
But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

the words 'pillar' and 'stand up' suggest the link between the philadelphia church and Michael, the only blameless church and the only Angel who held the truth with Jesus.



posted on Jan, 25 2010 @ 08:54 AM
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reply to post by iamnot
 




Out of this order come the familiar seven Archangels which include
Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Sariel, and the fallen Lucifer.


Of course there is no reference of any of these angels outside of Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer in the original Canonical books of the bible. These other angels are referenced in the apocrypha. I wouldn't call them very reliable.

Laodecia is not the most corrupt church. Check your facts. Laodecia is a group of faithful servants who have not fully been honoring the words of God. It's a burden for them to go to church or it's a fake church. This is why they are the true christains who will be persecuted in the tribulation while the remnant of the philadelphia church are kept safe in the wilderness.

Laodecia reminds me of a Casting Crowns song off their "Lifesong" album. It's called "Stained Glass Masquerade."

"Is there anyone who fails?
Is there anyone who falls?
Am I the only one in church today
Feeling so small?
'Cause when I take a look around
Everybody seems so strong.
I know they'll soon discover
That I don't belong.

So I tuck it all away
Like everything's okay.
If I make them all believe it
Maybe I'd believe it too.
So with the pain I grin
And play the part again
So everyone will see me
The way that I see them...

-Are we happy plastic people
Under shiney plastic steeples?
With walls around our weakness
And smiles behind our pain.
But if the invitation's open
To every heart that has been broken
Maybe then we'll close the curtain
On our stained glass masquerade.-

Is there anyone who's been there?
Are there any hands raised?
Am I the only one who's tradeing
In the altar for the stage?
The performance is commencing.
We know every line by heart.
Only when no one is watching
Do we really fall apart.

So would it set me free
If I dare to let you see
The truth behind the person
That you imagine me to be?
Or would your eyes be open?
Or would you walk away?
Or would the love of Jesus
Be enough to make you stay?

-Are we happy plastic people
Under shiney plastic steeples?
With walls around our weakness
And smiles behind our pain.
But if the invitation's open
To every heart that has been broken
Maybe then we'll close the curtain
On our stained glass masquerade.-



posted on Jan, 25 2010 @ 09:16 AM
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reply to post by iamnot
 


I find your line of inquiry very interesting; please keep us informed of your progress.

The symmetry of the symbolism is meaningful, and I believe you might find some points worth noting within the apocrypha although I grant that you may not wish to attribute too much weight to the extra information.

Nicely done



posted on Jan, 25 2010 @ 11:46 AM
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Thankyou Max for your support

I agree that not all 7 angels named are not reliable, that's why I could only place two with certainty.

Perhaps most corrupt is not the correct term, let's change that to most delusional.



posted on Jan, 25 2010 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by iamnot
There is no 'direct' evidence there. I was linking the indirect evidence through the choice of words used by Jesus to adress the 7 churches.

If there is any 'indirect evidence' it should be applied to the character of the churches...
...not the messangers of the churches.


I for one do not believe that the 7 churches are strictly divided into 'christian' sects such as catholic, sda, mormon etc.

The seven churches were seven literal churches in Asia Minor...
...selected from among hundreds for their specific character.

The order in which they are presented describes seven eras of the Christian church...
...if they had been presented in any other order they would have not reflected the historical phases of Christendom as accurately as they do.

Laodicea is the final church and describes our current era.



If it were Jesus would not address the doctrine of Nicolaitanes, Balam and Jezebel.

A church is a 'body of Christ' not a man made temple and the message is what matters.

The message to the church is what matters...
...not some special feature or identity of the specific 'messenger'.


Angels were created as messengers of God.
The Scriptures reveal that God created nine orders of angels:
Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominations, Principalities, Powers, Virtues, Archangels, and Angels.

Out of this order come the familiar seven Archangels which include
Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Sariel, and the fallen Lucifer.

Lucifer, though fallen, is still an Angel(messenger). His message is corrupt and it embodies the message of the Laodicean church. The core message of the New Age.

You will find Lucifer in other parts of Revelation...
...but he is not one of the 'messangers' attached to a church.


John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Moving on, the following scripture is the reason I believe Michael is the angel of the 6h church which was the only one found blameless.

Daniel 10:21
But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

the words 'pillar' and 'stand up' suggest the link between the philadelphia church and Michael, the only blameless church and the only Angel who held the truth with Jesus.

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say with this proof-texting.




posted on Jan, 26 2010 @ 11:51 PM
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well i don't expect everyone to see this point of view.

I am aware that the churches were actual chruches at that time. And I agree that they also represent the ages.
But I don't belelieve it ends there quite yet.

The visions described in revelations are things that were, things that are and things that are to come.
I think everybody can be anyone member of the 7 churches.
We judge for ourselves which one we belong to day by day

Back to my theory

Rev 17: 9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The seven kings corespond with the 7 angels of God
5 are fallen, One is (King Jesus) and the other is not yet come (Lucifer or whatever new name he has)

11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The beast that was is Satan who was and is not. He is the eighth (spirit) and is of the seven (kings/angels). Satan the spirit of Lucifer transformed into an Angel of Light

The Laodicean church is described as lukewarm
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

This is a church totally disbelieving in the saving grace and truth otherwise it would not be called naked, wretched, miserable and poor.

This church is the one that is trying to ascend to heaven like Lucifer did.
It is looking for another way out other than the cross. This church believes in being transported by tetrahedrons and ufos to avoid the lynch mob. They are truly the ones who are fearful.

God is saying 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

THRONE is the operative word. The leader of this church wants the throne of God.



posted on Jan, 27 2010 @ 01:12 AM
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reply to post by iamnot
 

Q: How do you make the connection between the angels of the seven churches and the 'seven kings'?


You may also be interested in the following reflection on Revelation 17:

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Five had already died...

"...five are fallen..."
Pius XI
Pius XII
John XXIII
Paul VI
John Paul I

"...one is..."
John Paul II (he was alive when the interpretation was first made)

"...not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space".
Benedict XVI (current pope who has a relatively short reign)

"...goes into perdition."
...the next and final pope.

The time hack for the "five are fallen" is the serious wounding of John Paul II.
With reference to the chiasmic parallel reference in Revelation 13:3...
"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed:"

This interpretation was first suggested by a group of theology students and first surfaced shortly after the 1981 assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II, and first posted on the Internet in 1996.

I view this as an adjunctive fulfillment but found it interesting because it coincided with the last seven popes predicted by St Malachi.


I will comment further on your Laodicean/angel ID.




posted on Jan, 27 2010 @ 01:49 AM
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Upon reading this, the idea I got was one attempting to justify the Prosperity Gospel in the face of this scripture.

While troubleshooter is, in my opinion, doing a great job addressing the scripture in question, I wanted to draw attention to something else. Namely, scripture as a whole. 2 Timothy 3:16 says,


All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness


It says all of scripture. Which means Revelation 3's interpretation must be in accord with the rest of scripture. If it is not, it does not mean the rest of scripture is wrong, but rather our interpretation is wrong. I have had this brought to bear against many interpretations I have had of scripture, some of which are amongst the posts here on ATS. My interpretation didn't agree with scripture as a whole, which meant I was wrong in my interpretation.

Now, the church of Laodicea is condemned for being luke warm because they're self reliant. Verse 17 says, "You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked." They seem to have become complacent because they have everything they need. They neither condemn/curse nor praise/ask God for anything because they have what they need.

Yet, what was the first, most important, commandment, as Christ told us? "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." (Matthew 22:37). It was not use that which you have for good. It wasn't seek earthly prosperity that you may not need a thing in this world. It was love God.

What's more, recall the rich young ruler. In luke 18:22-23, this exchange concludes:


When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth.


Many misinterpret this to mean God says be poor. Not so, as can be evidenced from many other scriptures, including David being a friend of God, despite being a rich ruler himself. However, based on this guy's reaction, his wealth meant a lot to him. God, when he asked what he must to do get to heaven, said, essentially, that his money had gotten between him and God. So he had to choose -- prosperity or Jesus. Not, again, because prosperity was bad, but because the love of money over God is bad.

We see the fruit of that love in the Laodicean church. They are wealthy. They are also completely self reliant. So far as they're concerned, they don't need God, nor do they have to ask Him for anything.

I'm reminded of a story a somewhat well known Charismatic preacher, Rick Joyner, wrote. He told of a plan he had to run an air charter business until he had enough money to start a ministry. His idea was to have a church which would never have to pass the offering plate.

Well, after some time, his charter business failed completely. When he was asking God why, he felt God say that it wasn't His will to deprive us the privilege of tithing. To some, that might sound like a money grubbing act. However, it's scriptural that we give God a portion of our money, and this was written in a book (The Torch and The Sword) that most, when they read it, have already bought it and don't go to his church. Instead, it was a story he told to make the point that God isn't as interested in making us comfortable here on Earth as He is fixing our eyes upon Him by preventing us from having any love greater than Him. So really, giving money is a privilege, because it helps us from growing to love money more than our God or our fellow man.

Which is why the message to the church of Laodicea is scriptural. And if, instead, it came from Satan, then we're going to have to reinterpret a lot of scripture, because it would mean self reliance, not surrender, is what God seeks of us.



posted on Jan, 27 2010 @ 03:31 AM
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Originally posted by iamnot
This is a church totally disbelieving in the saving grace and truth otherwise it would not be called naked,

wretched, miserable and poor.

I think you are right, it is a self-sufficient church depending on tradition, doctrines, progams.
They are advised to 'buy' the achievments of Jesus represented by purified Gold (maybe also a reference to Daniel 3), His robe of Righteousness and the insight of the Spirit.

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Revelation 3:18

But I think this next bit is the key...

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20

It is the only church of the seven that depicts Jesus standing outside...
...a 'Christ-one' (Christian) is a person with the Spirit...
...the final church has everything except the indwelling Spirit...
...so really has nothing.



This church is the one that is trying to ascend to heaven like Lucifer did.

One reason I have trouble with your notion about Lucifer being the angel of Laodicea...
...Jesus still calls them His church...
...and that He said this "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." John 12:31-32

It seems Jesus had Lucifer finished before He had John write Revelation...
...so I doubt that He would have had Lucifer involved with one of His churches.



It is looking for another way out other than the cross. This church believes in being transported by tetrahedrons and ufos to avoid the lynch mob. They are truly the ones who are fearful.

I agree, I think this part of the anti-prophecy of the pre-mill Dispensationalists...
...I believe there will be a world-wide calvary...
...and the pre-mill rapture idea is a con.

Some Dispensationalists are already talking about a false or fake rapture...
...like a mass abduction schenario...
...but I think pre-trib this is all there will be.


God is saying 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame

, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

THRONE is the operative word. The leader of this church wants the throne of God.

The throne is a reward for the overcomer...
...the one who overcomes is the one who follows His advice and hears His voice...

"And they overcame him (Dragon/Lucifer) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." Revelation 12:11

Overcoming is a good thing that believers do by the indwelling Jesus...
...not something Lucifer does.




posted on Jan, 27 2010 @ 05:01 AM
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Maybe the angel of the church is the "group consciousness of the followers??

ya know, kind of like people from around the world have come to america and call it home, and well, though all different, with different values, heritage, beliefs, has meshed it all out and come up with it's own unique way....or spirit, the American Spirit.

still sounds like present day america to me though. not hot nor cold...not conservative or liberal, but lukewarm......a little of both, conservative when it benefits the rulers, but liberal in other ways, just as long as it benefits the rulers. Rich, wanting nothing, but really poor....well, look at our trading deficit, our gov't deficit, and our personal, business debt.... untill the recent crash much of the population "appeared" to be doing quite well, but we now know it was just an illusion!

and that illusion could only have been propagated in our "lukewarm" society.

kind of makes me wonder if maybe the people of this church didn't find a way to make "helping the poor" a profitable enterprise much like we did.



posted on Jan, 28 2010 @ 12:27 AM
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I just typed out a long post, went to hit reply and it's gone. I'm logged out, I've lost everything and gotta redo it. Looooove when that happens.

oh well here I go again




Maybe the angel of the church is the "group consciousness of the followers??


The bible does say that an angel can be that.




Q: How do you make the connection between the angels of the seven churches and the 'seven kings'


Angels can be described as kings. Jesus is called Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Lord of Hosts. The son of man said Micheal was Davids Prince.
David said, the Lord said to my Lord...

Popes are mere flesh and blood. Revelations is a heavenly reveal.

5 are fallen, one is and one is not yet come. in the letters to the 7 churches, the first 5 have fallen states, only one church is blameless and the last churchs state is fallen too.




Upon reading this, the idea I got was one attempting to justify the Prosperity Gospel in the face of this scripture


that is definitely not what I was attempting.




Which is why the message to the church of Laodicea is scriptural. And if, instead, it came from Satan


I am not saying it came from satan. I am saying the description applied to the church of Laodicea embodies the mentality of Lucifer mentioned in Isaiah.





...and that He said this "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me


satan was cast out of heaven into the earth when jesus was lifted up. Rev 12. I think Isaiah was prophecying that moment when he saw Lucifer fallen.



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