If creation is true, why are there different races?

cain married his sister and had kids with her! but they wont come right out and admit that in the bible or do they?

Simple, there is no such thing as race. What you call "race" is what i call pshyical adaptations to the enviornment. I can explain it as simply drawing a line on a map and saying, "hot weather makes darker skin, and up north makes lighter skin which explains the shades of color matching the region in a scale", or i can get down to a more specific level and explain vitamin D that created changes in skin. Look up why we get freckles.

Its just changes in the pshyical, its no different then someone white with a big nose and one with a tiny nose.

Even though theres a lot of scientist who want to dismiss this as much as possible with no evidence because of certain bias.

Originally posted by ammocase
Simple, there is no such thing as race.

It seems you did not read all of the posts here; I have already addressed this.

If you prefer not to call differences in appearance "race" that is fine. Jusr delete the word "race" and insert "differences in physical appearance".

No one has yet answered this question: Can the physical differences in appearance between people have developed/evolved in the 10,000 years or so since Noah's time? And these differences in pysical appearance, such as skin color or eye shape, cannot be compared to things like eye color or hair color. If they were comparable then people would have children that were all different... white skin, brown skin, asian eyes, etc.

reply to post by craig732


True, I agree I totally went off topic.

Its all genetics. Over time we've "adampted" to our environment. After the seperation and migration they developed certain physical changes in order to better survive in their environment. It'd take too long to explain genetics but its always been that way. I'm sure you'd agree that Adam & Eve looked different? Then I'm guessing their children would have looked different from them and so on and so forth. Although I believe the tower of Babel would have been the defining moment in the physical features .. or Races.

reply to post by craig732

No one has yet answered this question: Can the physical differences in appearance between people have developed/evolved in the 10,000 years or so since Noah's time? And these differences in pysical appearance, such as skin color or eye shape, cannot be compared to things like eye color or hair color. If they were comparable then people would have children that were all different... white skin, brown skin, asian eyes, etc.

The way I see it, If I baby can be born with three working arms, Or Being born with a tail. Why is it so hard to believe that someone can be born with blonde hair from parents with brown hair? All Genetics.

Just my opinion though

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
reply to post by craig732

 

No one has yet answered this question: Can the physical differences in appearance between people have developed/evolved in the 10,000 years or so since Noah's time? And these differences in pysical appearance, such as skin color or eye shape, cannot be compared to things like eye color or hair color. If they were comparable then people would have children that were all different... white skin, brown skin, asian eyes, etc.

The way I see it, If I baby can be born with three working arms, Or Being born with a tail. Why is it so hard to believe that someone can be born with blonde hair from parents with brown hair? All Genetics.

Just my opinion though

Being born with a tail or three arms in an anomaly. People with brown hair giving birth to people with blond hair is genetics and happens all the time.

It is not the "norm" for white skinned parents to give birth to brown skinned babies. Or for brown skinned parents to give birth to children with asian appearing eyes.

People with different physical appearances based on geographical location developed/evolved that way over time.

Is 10,000 years enough time for this to have happened? Anyone have scientific evidence of this?

As far as the races are concerned Read....

"The Book of E’Noch I-XXXVI"

Quote;

the children of the heavens, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another:

“Come, let us (The Watchers of Heaven) chose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.”

03.
And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them:

“I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed,
and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.”

04.
And they all answered him and said:

“Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations
not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.”

05.
Then sware they all together and bound themselves together by mutual imprecations upon it.

06.
And they were in all two hundred;
who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon,
because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it.

07.
And these are the names of their leaders:
Semiazaz, their leader,
Arakiba,
Rameel,
Kokabiel,
Tamiel,
Ramiel,
Danel,
Ezeqeel,
Baraqijal,
Asael,
Armaros,
Batarel,
Ananel,
Zaqiel,
Samsapeel,
Satarel,
Turel,
Jomael,
Sariel.

08.
These are their chiefs of tens.


7.
01.
And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives,
and each chose for himself one,
and they began to go in unto them and defile themselves with them,
and they taught them charms and enchantment’s,
and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants.

02.
And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants,
whose height was Three Thousand Ells:

03.
Who consumed all the acquisitions of men.
And when men could no longer sustain them,

04.
The giants turned against them and devoured mankind.

05.
And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish,
and to devour one an others flesh, and drink the blood.

Did our races come from the breeding with these beings, that came to the Earth?

This ancient record may Imply this???

Originally posted by craig732

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
So who is to say that ADAM, EVE & LILUTH didnt possess the ORIGINAL GENES for all humans and thru time some of these genes came on or were turned off

And it was pure coincidence that all the people in the same areas had the same gene turned on or off?

If you theory were correct, there would have been people of all different appearances and races being born to the same families. Like brown hair, blond hair, etc.

Correct and if you research you will find THERE HAVE BEEN MULTIPLE INSTANCES WHERE THIS HAS OCCURED with families having children of same mom and dad birthing different races.Its real.

take a look V

english.newslab.ru...
A woman bore twin girls of different skin color. One of her daughters is black and brown-eyed, the other is white and has blue eyes. The twins were born in Berpengary, Australia, to a mother of Jamaican-English descent and a father of German descent. The odds against of a mixed race couple having twins of dramatically different color are a million to one.

According to experts in genetics, ovules of a woman of a mixed race will produce mixed genes of black and white, which results in mulattos. Cases when one of the genes domineers are more rare, when either black or white twins are born. In this case there were two ovules. One of them had a black skin gene domineering, the other had white.

'It is amazing that they look completely different,' the twins' mother says, 'When they were born you could see there was a color difference straight away. We couldn’t believe it

www.foxnews.com...
Twins with different skin colors — one black and the other white — have been born in Berlin, Germany.

Doctors say it is an extremely rare occurrence, but it is possible if genes combine in a certain way.

The twin boys, named Ryan and Leo, are the offspring of a mixed-race couple.

The mother, Florence, hails from Ghana in western Africa, and dad, Stephan, is from Potsdam in Germany.

www.snopes.com...

UM JUST SAYEN






[edit on 1/29/10 by Ophiuchus 13]

Originally posted by davesidious
reply to post by Ghost in the Machine

 

The bible is pure conjecture. It is not a scientific, or historical, reference.

That is your opinion but it is not factual. We can argue all day about what is and what is not however your input has nothing to do with the OP.

Different races can be explained by Adaptation. The time line may not fit but 10,000 years is a long time.

I find myself in a small faction that believes the stories of the bible are not factual but made to teach concepts. It matters not to me if Adam and Eve existed. Science and religion go perfectly together when you approach them in this manner. Adam was the first Homo Sapien.

I subscribe to evolution from primates. That being said the differences in types of primates shows evidence towards different humans. Im not going to put a label on which primate evolved into which human, I think the visual appearance is very obvious.

Originally posted by craig732

Originally posted by kiwifoot

So technically we could have been created then adapted.

Scientifically, is the 10,000 years or so since Noah's time enough time to adapt in such drastic ways? What would have been the reason or need for Asians to have developed the eye style thay have?

I believe that most of the Asiatic type people actually originally came from inhospitable regions, Siberia, Northern Russia and China. In these regions snow blindness, dust and other conditions would have made having those type of eyes an advantage.

Not having those traits would cause premature death, meaning those with those eyes lived longer to pass the characteristic onto the next generation and so on.

I don't feel it would take too long, we can breed dogs with long ears in a few dozen generations so it would be plausible to develop the Asiatic look in a few millennia.

All the best, Kiwifoot.

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13Correct and if you research you will find THERE HAVE BEEN MULTIPLE INSTANCES WHERE THIS HAS OCCURED with families having children of same mom and dad birthing different races.Its real.

Um, dude, in both these instances, one parent was white and the other was black.

Kind of proves my point rather than refutes it.

Originally posted by kiwifoot
I don't feel it would take too long, we can breed dogs with long ears in a few dozen generations so it would be plausible to develop the Asiatic look in a few millennia.

Thank you Kiwi; finally someone took a step in the right direction to answer my question!

Now can anyone provide scientific evidence of this?

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
As far as the races are concerned Read....

"The Book of E’Noch I-XXXVI"

Unfortunately, the writers and organizers of the modern bible have chosen not to include the Book of Enoch. Consequently we cannot incluse this in our answer. I am looking for answers based soley on the modern bible and scientific evidence.

Originally posted by craig732

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
As far as the races are concerned Read....

"The Book of E’Noch I-XXXVI"

Unfortunately, the writers and organizers of the modern bible have chosen not to include the Book of Enoch. Consequently we cannot incluse this in our answer. I am looking for answers based soley on the modern bible and scientific evidence.

Why because You want to pretend it never happened????

How terribly wrong you are. There are Quotes from this Book

"The Book of E’Noch I-XXXVI" in your bible!

In some cases even Word for Word...

The same story is told in The Book of Genesis…
But in a much Edited form from....

"The Book of E’Noch I-XXXVI"

(But some verses are missing Now Why ???)

Chapter 5. Verses 4 & 5.
Quote;

4. There were Giants in the Earth in those days:

(Where did these Giants Come from???
Genetic mismatches with alien???)

And also after that, when the sons of God
Came unto the daughters of men,
And they bare children unto them,
The same became mighty men
Which were of old, men of renown.

5. And God saw that the wickedness of man
was great in the Earth,
and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart
as only evil continually.

(The Human Species CONSPIRES AGAINST LIFE Continuously ???)


and there is a Word for Word Quote
in The General Epistle of Jude (One of the Books of the Bible)
from this Book of E'Noch...

The Book of E’Noch I-XXXVI"

Just because modern day Conspirators that control what you read, in this case a version of a book written by Romans Conspiring against LIFE presenting their Roman Doctrine against LIFE!

Now isn't that strange or is it???

No wonder humankind don't want "The Books of E'Noch"
in the Bible (Roman Conspiracy) as the Human Species CONSPIRES against LIFE in sheep clothing but who are really a pack of Wolves....

If this Book "The Book of E’Noch I-XXXVI"
was in the Bible, then all would know our roots (Alien)
and we simply can't have that now can we ???

The whole human species are half breed aliens....
We are half Alien half human!!!
This is why the Alien Topic is sensored by Government
and only BS is released to the public.

We have to shut out such records including,
"The Book of E’Noch I-XXXVI"
and just pretend in sugar candy mountain
where santa lives and all good little people
of Roman doctrine go when darkness comes on them...

SAD isn't it ????

There was a Race of A'DAM but now we have only Half Breed Races...

Part Alien Part A'DAM.....

This is where the Races came from...

Breeding with Alien....

Reportedly 200 different species to start with... That is according to the written record...

Now that I have read the insightful and eye opening enlightenment of the Space Freaks with their Alien aspect, the Depraved Mindsets of the Incestual Thinkers, and the prime example of what is wrong with Us Christains, (not even know what they are reading when they seemingly suggest they know their Bible), I think it is time to get dirty and wallow into what many will scream as racist crap.

And to direct attention and address those who would wish to yell racism, let me clairify that when GOD saw what he had finished, it was GOOD.

If it is good for GOD, then who the hell are you to say otherwise.

Are we prepared now?

Let take a sane and calm look at the Genesis account and I would like to deal with something each and everyone of our self described knowledgable Bible Readers.

The 6th Day of Recreation.

The important things we are looking at is the Mutual and Collective Recreation of Man and understanding the instructions offered or directed to Man on the 6th Day. They bear no resemblence to instructions given to Adam, who was created on a Different Day. (Likely the 8th day, but certainly AFTER the day of REST or the 7th day).

Genesis

Genesis 1:24 - 2:1
1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature
after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the
earth after his kind: and it was so.
1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and
cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the
earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all
the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the
earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God
created he him; male and female created he them.
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful,
and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have
dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the
air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing
seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every
tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to
you it shall be for meat.
1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the
air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein
there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and
it was so.
1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it
was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth
day.
2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the
host of them.

I have offered the whole text, but wish to first look at the Collective Nature of this Recreation Account.

1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness:........

This is clearly suggesting GOD and the Sons of GOD, took part in a Collective sense, and that WE, were created unlike anything that previously inhabited the Earth. Given an Upright Appearance, with a Gift Unique to all Creation, Free Will.

As is clear, some here think this is the same a Alien Impregantion and Genetic Problems which are addressed within the 6th Chapter of Genesis, but this is not part of the 6th Day. The Next thing we see, is as follows.

1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God
created he him; male and female created he them.

GOD and GOD alone Created MAN. He, GOD, is the Creator. The Sons of GOD obviously had suggestions of some sort, as noted above, but GOD was the Onlly Creator involved in the Formation of MAN.

It is from here we get into somethings that NO ONE PAYS ANY ATTENTION TO.

GOD creates MAN, Male and Female. Stop the Press. This flies in the face of the Adam and Eve Scam the "Church" has fabricated.

MAN as a Spieces was Created on the 6th Day, and there was both MALE and FEMALE beings on this planet at the same time. Upright MAN with Free Will, walking and talking and doing what else? Well, I am sure GOD had something to say to Moses about this. Let's go on and see. We need to jump back a little to review what we overlooked earlier. The Complete
Verse was as follows

1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all
the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the
earth.

Here MAN was to be given this earth and all that the Recreation has Reassembled and was to have Dominion over it all. Something like Shepperds, or Oversee'rs so to speak. MAN was to be the Ranking Creation of this Planet.

We see this expressed again here.

1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful,
and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have
dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the
air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing
seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every
tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to
you it shall be for meat.

GOD has created everything these peoples will require to sustain and nuture life. Food through the Flora and Fauna. It was here and available for MAN and was to be used to be fruitful and multiply and replensih the earth and subdue it.

Lets take a look at another source for a moment

THE TARGUM OF JONATHAN BEN UZZIEL

And the Lord said to the angels who ministered before Him, who had been created in the second day of the creation of the world, Let us make man in Our image, in Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl which are in the atmosphere of heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every reptile creeping upon the earth. And the Lord created man in His Likeness: [JERUSALEM. And the Word of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the presence of the Lord He created him, the male and his yoke-fellow He created them.] In the image of the Lord He created him, with two hundred and forty and eight members, with three hundred and sixty and five nerves, and overlaid them with skin, and filled it with flesh and blood. Male and female in their bodies He created them. And He blessed them, and the Lord said to them, Increase and multiply, and fill the earth with sons and daughters, and prevail over it, in its possessions; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and over every creeping animal that creepeth upon the earth. And the Lord said, Behold, I have given you every herb whose seed seedeth upon the face of all the earth, and every unfruitful tree for the need of building and for burning; and the tree in which is fruit seeding after its kind, to you it shall be for food. But to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to every reptile upon the earth in which is the living soul, (I have given) all green herbs. And it was so. And the Lord beheld every thing He had made, and it was very good. And it was evening, and it was morning, the Sixth Day.

Again, here, we see a similiar event being outlaid. MAN, both Male and Female given similiar instructions and similiar duties.

I will also, offer another view, from another source, which is contested somewhat by this previous text.

But that will have to follow on the Next Post. Space will limit this right now.

Ciao

Shane














[edit on 30-1-2010 by Shane]

To Continue, lets jump into this second version of some contention.

THE TARGUM OF ONKELOS

And the Lord said, Let the earth produce the living animal after its kind, cattle, and reptile, and beast of the earth, according to its kind;‑and it was so. And the Lord mad, the beast of the earth after its kind, and cattle after their kind, and every reptile of the earth after its kind; and the Lord saw that it was good. And the Lord said, Let us make Man in Our image, as Our likeness; and shall have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every reptile which moveth upon the earth. And the Lord created the Adam[6] in His image, in the image of the Lord[7] He created him; male and female He created them. And the Lord blessed them, and said to them, spread abroad, and become many, and fill the earth, and be strong upon it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And the Lord said, Behold, I have given to you every plant which seedeth gerrn‑seed which is upon all the earth; and every tree in which is the fruit of the tree which seedeth germ‑seed; unto you it shall be for food, and unto every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to every reptile upon the earth in which is the breath of life, every green herb to eat; and it was so. And the Lord saw all that He had made, and, behold, it was very steadfast. And it was evening, and it was morning, Day the Sixth.

II. And the heavens and the earth and all their host were completed.

Again, this is a Simliar set of Instructions.

Now to be clear with this, we hare look into three ENGLISH versions of the Books of Moses. The 1611 King James Bible and TWO versions of the Original Texts, One from Palestine and the Other from Babylon. (I Think this was how these two books/versions differ.)

Nevertheless, we see something that has not been offered for consideration by anyone within 3 pages of this post.

THE RACES OF MAN WERE CREATED BY GOD ON THE 6TH DAY OF RECREATION. They have no "KINSHIP" to ADAM in anyway shape or form, and preceed ADAM by at least two Days, depending of course upon what you would generally refer to a Day as. (My personal view of this is an Age or Era, but who am I to say all must believe me.)

Now that I have said this, lets look at these peoples.

Let's look to our Nubian cousins, and the Lifestyle they lived prior to the arrival of "Outsiders" causing problems and such. They all lived a similiar Lifestyle and tended to be "Stewarts" of the Lands they inhabited. Their Sustainence came from the Earth and the Spieces they hunted and managed.

Let's look at our Asian Cousins, and again, we will see again, until the arrival of "Outsiders", they also lived a Simliar Lifestyle. Some may argue they had agricultural tendancies, but I would humbly suggest they tamed the Wildlife but it was still Wildlife. It wasn't Domesticated Stock, or Domestic Crops. It was Water Buffalo and Wild Rices, which they learned to grow and work with.

Let's look at our Aboriginal Cousins of Austrailia, and again. Blah Blah Blah. Do I need to repeat myself?

South America, and North America also had such peoples living this Lifestyle.

And this was PRIOR to "Outsiders" arriving and FN thing's up.

Now let's look briefly at ADAM, and the Eve.

Adam was Created after the day of rest at some past period of time. He is not 6th Day MAN, because we will see he is alone, with "none" like him. We will see he is not a Hunter/Gather, as 6th Day MAN was.

Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had
not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man
to till the ground.
2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the
whole face of the ground.
2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a
living soul.
2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and
there he put the man whom he had formed.

THE TARGUM OF JONATHAN BEN UZZIEL
II. And the creatures of the heavens and earth, and all the hosts of them, were completed. And the Lord had finished by the Seventh Day the work which He had wrought, and the ten formations which He had created between the suns; and He rested the Seventh Day from all His works which He had performed. And the Lord blessed the Seventh Day more than all the days of the week, and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His works which the Lord had created and had willed to make. These are the geneses of the heavens and earth when they were created in the day that the Lord God made the earth and heavens. And all the trees of the field were not as yet in the earth, and all the herbs of the field had not as yet germinated, because the Lord God had not made it to rain upon the earth, and man was not to cultivate the ground. But a cloud of glory descended from the throne of glory, and was filled with waters from the ocean, and afterward went up from the earth, and gave rain to come down and water all the face of the ground.

THE TARGUM OF ONKELOS
II. And the heavens and the earth and all their host were completed. And the Lord finished in the Seventh Day His work which He had wrought, and rested in the Seventh Day from all His work which He had wrought. And the Lord blessed the Seventh Day and made it holy, because in it He rested from all His work which the Lord had created to make. These are the memorials[8] of the heavens and the earth., when they were created in the day when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens. And all trees of the field were not yet in the earth, and every herb of the field had not yet sprung up, because the Lord God had not caused rain to come upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. And a mist[9] ascended from the earth, and moistened all the face of the ground. And the Lord God created Adam from dust of the ground, and breathed upon his face the breath of lives, and it became in Adam a Discoursing Spirit. And the Lord God planted a garden in a region of pleasantness[10] in the time of the beginning, and He made to dwell there the man whom He had created.

In all three version here, Adam, or THE Man, was created to do one thing.
He was created to TILL the Earth or Cultivate the Earth. He is ALONE. He is kept within the Garden, and was to be the First Farmer.

NONE of this is anything close to what is noted within the events of Day 6. A farmer verse Hunters/Gathers.

So I will go one if there are some that need to have some obvious questions answered, but I respectfully suggest the Bible and it's precursors are really clear that MAN was here long before ADAM and Eve, and since, as we see in the following,.....

Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

.....we see he is alone, and had no help, it is clear he was not alike those created on the 6th Day.

This is the Evidence and Origin of the Races on this planet. They are 6th Day MAN. I feel comfortable refering to them as the Races, and again, lets just take the time to review this post. AT the end of each day, GOD saw that it was Good or even Very Good in some cases.

So please ditch the Racist Comments.

There are a great many questions that I would expect to see, and I would be more than pleased to attempt to offer some replies to any questions, if you wish to ask. But I will not wallow into the Racist Crap at all.

Hope this was helpful.

Yours truly

Shane

reply to post by Shane


Do You realise that A'DAM and MAN are two Different Entities ???

As it is Written in your bible...

No MAN hath Ascended into Heaven, Save HIM who cam DOWN from Heaven....

It does NOT say God made A'DAM, in their Image....

But it does say "MAN" was made in their Image (God as in The Word & LIFE)

MAN is the SOUL
A'DAM is the Flesh...

This is the whole Conspiracy, that The Flesh is proclaiming to be MAN or The SOUL...

When the Flesh is A'DAM....

This is why we Refer to "The Son of MAN" (The Man Child) and Not "the Son of A'DAM"....

Written in The Gospel of Thomas...

Quote;

85. Jesus said,

“Adam came into being from a great power and a great wealth,
but he did not become worthy of you.

For had he been worthy, he would not have experienced death.”

So what is the "YOU" that is mentioned in this verse ???

The "You" (MAN) is the Soul !!!

And A'DAM is the Flesh...

It is "MAN" The SOUL, that Rules over all species NOT A'DAM...

Behind every Species is "MAN" The SOUL and NOT A'DAM...
No matter what you want or Believe....


[edit on 30-1-2010 by The Matrix Traveller]