A great thread sky. You've taken the words right out of my mouth.
S&F for you SF
How Capitalism Helps the Third World, page 1
privacy
Topic started on 23-1-2010 @ 08:30 AM by Skyfloating
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime”
Map: UN Human Development Index
I do not make Donations (Exception: Natural Disasters), I do not pointlessly give for Charity, I do not campaign for "giving to the poor" or for "taxing the rich", I do not believe in "foreign aid". I do not hand out free lunch because I know that weakens the recipient. If I give him free fish I have made him dependent on me. If however I teach him how to fish I have really helped him because now he is self-sufficient.
So I do help the third-worlder build water-sources, get school-books or lend him money to build his own Business. A recent good example of micro-lending or Capitalists helping the third world is Kiva, a site where anyone on the Internet can support a thirld-worlder who is willing to be pro-active, willing to set-up a small business, willing to work:
A maybe even better Model of this might be microplace where there is the Option of you charging interest.
Things like this support the third-world while helping them maintain their Dignity rather than babyfying them with the "poor-you" look. Those who critisize the micro-lenders for taking interest need to learn that any organization intent on helping on a grand-scale needs to be sustainable.
To counter some myths you might have heard about Capitalisma-nd-the-Third World on Campus...
"America is not rich because of Capitalism but because of its natural resources"
The truth: Africa, South America, Asia are rich in natural resources while Singapor, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Great Britian, etc hardly have any.
"Corporations exploit the weak and poor and run sweat-shops in third world-countries"
What some call exploitation others call "giving people a job opportunity". Those unfortunate cases in which true forced labor and inhumane conditions at the workplace do occur are rare. And incidentally those 1% of evil-doers happen to be in non-free-market countries. Free-market-economies on the other hand, have a good human-rights-record (compared to countries without free-market). We have a higher standard of living, higher health, higher life expectancy.
"These countries are poor because of Western Colonialist and Imperialist Oppression"
It is true that Colonialism had negative effects on indigenous people around the globe. But Colonialism is not Capitalism. And it does not account for all poverty, especially not today in an age where these nations are sovereign. Canada, Australia and HongKong were colonies. Why arent they poor? Ethiopia, Liberia, Bhutan, Tibet were no colonies. Why are they poor?
________________________________________________________________
The cause of all poverty are doctrines and beliefs that preac and imply victimhood. If you understand the psychology of such doctrines you will understand that it can lead to no other results than poverty.
Why? Because those doctrines paint people as pathetic and helpless victims of some "oppresor"/"perpetrator". In doing so they say
"You are not the master of your life, others are"
"You are not responsible"
"You are not able"
"The world is a bad place"
"The employer is an evil man"
"The system is crap"
"People who have money are evil"
"Money is the root of all evil"
"You are dumb, let the Government take care of everything for you"
This type of brainwashing creates a mentality from which it is very difficult to succeed in anything - afterall, success itself is associated with evil.
Business/Finance/Capital has created our infrastructure, our technology, our medicine, our houses, streets, buildings, computers, cars, internet, foods. Before the Industrial Revolution we lived in dark ages where you could die from having a cold and where you had to plough the fields all day.
In the same way Capitalism, Education and Love can and will help the Thirld World arise from sickness, malnutrition, war to more peace and prosperity.
To help in this respect we need to STOP GIVING FOREIGN "AID", stop falling for the constant calls of "Help this Country" and "Donate to that Country" and start helping our fellow humans, our brothers and sisters in the third world out in terms of Self-Sufficiency.
[edit on 23-1-2010 by Skyfloating]
Map: UN Human Development Index
I do not make Donations (Exception: Natural Disasters), I do not pointlessly give for Charity, I do not campaign for "giving to the poor" or for "taxing the rich", I do not believe in "foreign aid". I do not hand out free lunch because I know that weakens the recipient. If I give him free fish I have made him dependent on me. If however I teach him how to fish I have really helped him because now he is self-sufficient.
So I do help the third-worlder build water-sources, get school-books or lend him money to build his own Business. A recent good example of micro-lending or Capitalists helping the third world is Kiva, a site where anyone on the Internet can support a thirld-worlder who is willing to be pro-active, willing to set-up a small business, willing to work:
We Let You Loan to Low Income Entrepreneurs Kiva's mission is to connect people through lending for the sake of alleviating poverty. Kiva is the world's first person-to-person micro-lending website, empowering individuals to lend to unique entrepreneurs around the globe. The people you see on Kiva's site are real individuals. When you browse entrepreneurs' profiles on Kiva, choose someone to lend to, and then make a loan, you are helping a real person make great strides towards economic independence and improve life for themselves, their family, and their community. Throughout the course of the loan (usually 6-12 months), you can receive email journal updates and track repayments. Then, when you get your loan money back, you can relend to someone else.
A maybe even better Model of this might be microplace where there is the Option of you charging interest.
Things like this support the third-world while helping them maintain their Dignity rather than babyfying them with the "poor-you" look. Those who critisize the micro-lenders for taking interest need to learn that any organization intent on helping on a grand-scale needs to be sustainable.
To counter some myths you might have heard about Capitalisma-nd-the-Third World on Campus...
"America is not rich because of Capitalism but because of its natural resources"
The truth: Africa, South America, Asia are rich in natural resources while Singapor, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Great Britian, etc hardly have any.
"Corporations exploit the weak and poor and run sweat-shops in third world-countries"
What some call exploitation others call "giving people a job opportunity". Those unfortunate cases in which true forced labor and inhumane conditions at the workplace do occur are rare. And incidentally those 1% of evil-doers happen to be in non-free-market countries. Free-market-economies on the other hand, have a good human-rights-record (compared to countries without free-market). We have a higher standard of living, higher health, higher life expectancy.
"These countries are poor because of Western Colonialist and Imperialist Oppression"
It is true that Colonialism had negative effects on indigenous people around the globe. But Colonialism is not Capitalism. And it does not account for all poverty, especially not today in an age where these nations are sovereign. Canada, Australia and HongKong were colonies. Why arent they poor? Ethiopia, Liberia, Bhutan, Tibet were no colonies. Why are they poor?
________________________________________________________________
The cause of all poverty are doctrines and beliefs that preac and imply victimhood. If you understand the psychology of such doctrines you will understand that it can lead to no other results than poverty.
Why? Because those doctrines paint people as pathetic and helpless victims of some "oppresor"/"perpetrator". In doing so they say
"You are not the master of your life, others are"
"You are not responsible"
"You are not able"
"The world is a bad place"
"The employer is an evil man"
"The system is crap"
"People who have money are evil"
"Money is the root of all evil"
"You are dumb, let the Government take care of everything for you"
This type of brainwashing creates a mentality from which it is very difficult to succeed in anything - afterall, success itself is associated with evil.
Business/Finance/Capital has created our infrastructure, our technology, our medicine, our houses, streets, buildings, computers, cars, internet, foods. Before the Industrial Revolution we lived in dark ages where you could die from having a cold and where you had to plough the fields all day.
In the same way Capitalism, Education and Love can and will help the Thirld World arise from sickness, malnutrition, war to more peace and prosperity.
To help in this respect we need to STOP GIVING FOREIGN "AID", stop falling for the constant calls of "Help this Country" and "Donate to that Country" and start helping our fellow humans, our brothers and sisters in the third world out in terms of Self-Sufficiency.
[edit on 23-1-2010 by Skyfloating]
reply posted on 23-1-2010 @ 09:33 AM by Someone336
Yeah, I'm not sure if capitalism has helped the Third World all that much.
upload.wikimedia.org...
That's a picture of Maquiladora, a FRZ located in Mexico. These exist all over the world, where dirt poor people work for pennies an hour in terrible conditions to manufacture goods that were once made on American soil by American workers. Often people are forced to work in the sweat shops in the Free Trade Zones because the land they lived on was torn down to construct a factory, and others fall victim to empty promises made by recruiters who actively seek out the areas of the country that are the poorest.
Inside these worker shops that people all around the world have defended as "Capitalism pulling up the Third World", totalitarianism is the name of the game. Often they have to pay extravagant fees to actually get the jobs, not realizing the conditions they have agreed to work in, and the next several years they have to use their wages to pay back the company. Bathroom usage is monitored to increase productivity - often companies give people two short bathroom breaks in the day, a time when every person in the factory has to use them. This has led to accounts of people urinating in plastic bags underneath their work tables. Other accounts talk of regular checks of women's sanitary pads to make sure they are menstruating, and some investigator's have uncovered that some companies have forced abortions on those who did actually become pregnant. Other women who have given birth now have children with malformations, caused by constant exposure to toxic chemicals in the work place. Other places have given their workers amphetamines to keep them going, and in some accounts workers were forced in grueling three day shifts.
Death is figure on the landscape of "capitalism in the third world". Take, for example, Ranjith Mudiyanselage, who had complained to the bosses in his factory in Sri Lanka about faulty equipment that had injured employees. He attempted to have the machinery changed.
And what of the story of Carmelita Alonzo, a sewing machine operator at the factory that produces GAP clothing?
CorpWatch: Codes of Conduct and Carmelita: The Real Gap
What helped contribute to her death was that she was suffering from pneumonia, "a common illness in factories that are suffocatingly hot in the day but fill with condensation at night," and was denied time off to recover.
We can help the Third World, yes, but what capitalism has done so far is by far hurting them.
By the way, I find it ironic that you open the post with a Biblical quote, but later pooh-pooh on the following one:
[edit on 23-1-2010 by Someone336]
upload.wikimedia.org...
That's a picture of Maquiladora, a FRZ located in Mexico. These exist all over the world, where dirt poor people work for pennies an hour in terrible conditions to manufacture goods that were once made on American soil by American workers. Often people are forced to work in the sweat shops in the Free Trade Zones because the land they lived on was torn down to construct a factory, and others fall victim to empty promises made by recruiters who actively seek out the areas of the country that are the poorest.
Inside these worker shops that people all around the world have defended as "Capitalism pulling up the Third World", totalitarianism is the name of the game. Often they have to pay extravagant fees to actually get the jobs, not realizing the conditions they have agreed to work in, and the next several years they have to use their wages to pay back the company. Bathroom usage is monitored to increase productivity - often companies give people two short bathroom breaks in the day, a time when every person in the factory has to use them. This has led to accounts of people urinating in plastic bags underneath their work tables. Other accounts talk of regular checks of women's sanitary pads to make sure they are menstruating, and some investigator's have uncovered that some companies have forced abortions on those who did actually become pregnant. Other women who have given birth now have children with malformations, caused by constant exposure to toxic chemicals in the work place. Other places have given their workers amphetamines to keep them going, and in some accounts workers were forced in grueling three day shifts.
Death is figure on the landscape of "capitalism in the third world". Take, for example, Ranjith Mudiyanselage, who had complained to the bosses in his factory in Sri Lanka about faulty equipment that had injured employees. He attempted to have the machinery changed.
In 1993, a Sri Lankan zone worker by the name of Ranjith Mudiyanselage was killed for appearing to challenge this policy. After complaining about a faulty machine that had sliced off a co-worker's finger, Mudlyanselage was abducted on his way out of an inquiry into the incident. His body was found beaten and burning on a pile of old tires outside a local church. The man's legal adviser, who had accompanied him to the inquiry, was murdered in the same way.
And what of the story of Carmelita Alonzo, a sewing machine operator at the factory that produces GAP clothing?
Carmelita died on March 8, 1997, International Women's Day, at the Andres Bonifacio Memorial Hospital in Cavite, the Philippines, after 11 days in hospital. According to a statement released by her co-workers at V.T. Fashion, "Carmelita was killed by her 14 hour workday every day plus overtime of eight hours every Sunday." (Philippine News Features, March 19, 1997).
CorpWatch: Codes of Conduct and Carmelita: The Real Gap
What helped contribute to her death was that she was suffering from pneumonia, "a common illness in factories that are suffocatingly hot in the day but fill with condensation at night," and was denied time off to recover.
We can help the Third World, yes, but what capitalism has done so far is by far hurting them.
By the way, I find it ironic that you open the post with a Biblical quote, but later pooh-pooh on the following one:
"Money is the root of all evil"
[edit on 23-1-2010 by Someone336]
reply posted on 23-1-2010 @ 10:18 AM by Skyfloating
Hello Mr. Someone,
thanks for taking the time to offer a counter-viewpoint.
The OP is about micro-lending which is giving a little bit of Capital to small-businesses of the poor. Your I must say rather deflective post (!) talks about the very most grim sides of Corporatism.
Question: What is the percentage of Corporations forcing people to work (forcing meaning they did not apply of their own free will and are not allowed to leave)?
Tragic no doubt. Bad employers no doubt. Please show me the Capitalist Paper where it says that people who complain should be beaten.
You are pointing out instances of brute Violence but this has nothing to do with Investing and Capital.
So what?
[edit on 23-1-2010 by Skyfloating]
thanks for taking the time to offer a counter-viewpoint.
Yeah, I'm not sure if capitalism has helped the Third World all that much.
upload.wikimedia.org...
The OP is about micro-lending which is giving a little bit of Capital to small-businesses of the poor. Your I must say rather deflective post (!) talks about the very most grim sides of Corporatism.
people are forced to work in the sweat shops
Question: What is the percentage of Corporations forcing people to work (forcing meaning they did not apply of their own free will and are not allowed to leave)?
In 1993, a Sri Lankan zone worker by the name of Ranjith Mudiyanselage was killed for appearing to challenge this policy. After complaining about a faulty machine that had sliced off a co-worker's finger, Mudlyanselage was abducted on his way out of an inquiry into the incident. His body was found beaten and burning on a pile of old tires outside a local church. The man's legal adviser, who had accompanied him to the inquiry, was murdered in the same way.
Tragic no doubt. Bad employers no doubt. Please show me the Capitalist Paper where it says that people who complain should be beaten.
You are pointing out instances of brute Violence but this has nothing to do with Investing and Capital.
By the way, I find it ironic that you open the post with a Biblical quote, but later pooh-pooh on the following one: "Money is the root of all evil"
So what?
[edit on 23-1-2010 by Skyfloating]
reply posted on 23-1-2010 @ 12:06 PM by Jazzyguy
reply to post by rizla
Ah, I agree with you, star for you. Because capitalism can use debt to subtly enslave the masses. Not easy to get out of, they're an expert in dangling you lots of kinds of "loans", people who don't know better will get trapped.
Ah, I agree with you, star for you. Because capitalism can use debt to subtly enslave the masses. Not easy to get out of, they're an expert in dangling you lots of kinds of "loans", people who don't know better will get trapped.
reply posted on 23-1-2010 @ 12:08 PM by Skyfloating
reply to post by rizla
The Macro-Lending of the IMF, the misuse of their funds and Debt-Slavery is madness and doesnt have anything to do with the Capitalism the OP is referring to. Micro-lending is close-up and personal.
The Macro-Lending of the IMF, the misuse of their funds and Debt-Slavery is madness and doesnt have anything to do with the Capitalism the OP is referring to. Micro-lending is close-up and personal.
reply posted on 23-1-2010 @ 12:37 PM by drew hempel
www.jeffcohen.org...
reply to post by Skyfloating
"From the onset of the debt crisis in 1982, until 1990, debtor countries paid creditors in the North $6,500 million [$6.5 billion] per month in interest alone," reports the British magazine New Scientist. "Yet in 1991 those countries were 61 percent more indebted than they were in 1982." While the U.S. press is apt to portray the IMF and World Bank as selfless Good Samaritans, the reality is that these 50 year-old institutions function more like global loan sharks. One way countries are encouraged to repay their debts is by shifting from domestic agriculture to export crops.
reply to post by Skyfloating
reply posted on 23-1-2010 @ 01:18 PM by Skyfloating
reply to post by drew hempel
I already said why I dont care for the IMF and why it does not relate to this thread, so why bring it up?
Loan-sharking is not Capitalism, its...loan sharking!
[edit on 23-1-2010 by Skyfloating]
I already said why I dont care for the IMF and why it does not relate to this thread, so why bring it up?
Loan-sharking is not Capitalism, its...loan sharking!
[edit on 23-1-2010 by Skyfloating]
reply posted on 23-1-2010 @ 01:55 PM by drew hempel
Claiming that inhumane conditions in sweatshops are rare is just not accurate. I have a masters degree from the U of Minnesota in sustainability
policy work and I organized the Workers Rights Consortium membership in 2001, along with the Free Burma Coalition divestment of $1.5 million from
Total oil in 1998.
Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine" book on "disaster capitalism" is an excellent expose and she confronts and debates the so-called "pure" capitalists which are full of total b.s. -- they're just corporate-state funded liars.
www.youtube.com...
Try out Wayne Madsen, former NSA surveillance expert:
www.waynemadsenreport.com...
www.scribd.com...
Or Daniel Hopsicker who exposes the CIA drug trafficking and terrorist training out of Florida:
www.madcowprod.com...
Remember that Wall St. STARTED the CIA. There never was capitalism -- it's always been corporate-state genocide masking as the "free market."
Here's a must read:
www.amazon.com...=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0919618898&pf_rd_m=AT VPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0FZMGAR5T3HBN89KCM4Y
along with
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_19?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264276456&sr=1-19
reply to post by Skyfloating
Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine" book on "disaster capitalism" is an excellent expose and she confronts and debates the so-called "pure" capitalists which are full of total b.s. -- they're just corporate-state funded liars.
www.youtube.com...
Try out Wayne Madsen, former NSA surveillance expert:
www.waynemadsenreport.com...
www.scribd.com...
Or Daniel Hopsicker who exposes the CIA drug trafficking and terrorist training out of Florida:
www.madcowprod.com...
Remember that Wall St. STARTED the CIA. There never was capitalism -- it's always been corporate-state genocide masking as the "free market."
Here's a must read:
www.amazon.com...=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0919618898&pf_rd_m=AT VPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0FZMGAR5T3HBN89KCM4Y
along with
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_19?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264276456&sr=1-19
reply to post by Skyfloating
. reply posted on 23-1-2010 @ 05:05 PM by Skyfloating
reply to post by drew hempel
Im presenting apples and you're bashing oranges. Sweat Shops have zero to do with Capitalism except in the fever-dreams of hardcore Marxists.
The OP is about a good idea that has been practiced succesfully for a long time, for the benefit of the poor and the rich in a win-win. Coming in here to bash something that doesnt have anything to do with either Capitalism or Micro-lending is kind of deflective.
Im presenting apples and you're bashing oranges. Sweat Shops have zero to do with Capitalism except in the fever-dreams of hardcore Marxists.
The OP is about a good idea that has been practiced succesfully for a long time, for the benefit of the poor and the rich in a win-win. Coming in here to bash something that doesnt have anything to do with either Capitalism or Micro-lending is kind of deflective.
reply posted on 23-1-2010 @ 05:12 PM by Skyfloating
reply to post by SassyCat
Even though I disagree, I starred your post because it was a good rebuttal, some of which actually adressed the topic. I´ll reply to some of the points later.
[edit on 23-1-2010 by Skyfloating]
Even though I disagree, I starred your post because it was a good rebuttal, some of which actually adressed the topic. I´ll reply to some of the points later.
[edit on 23-1-2010 by Skyfloating]
reply posted on 23-1-2010 @ 05:16 PM by drew hempel
Well here's the google on sweatshops and capitalism. Monthly Review does show up down the list -- I suppose they are "hardcore Marxist" if you
want to use that term -- although I doubt they would agree with it! haha. O.K. there is a "workers world" link as well. Otherwise
#
Sweatshops represent capitalism at its best - Mail Call
Oct 9, 2003 ... Sweatshops are a great example of the virtues of free trade and freemarkets. Consider what conditions the citizens of third world countries ...
media.www.thebatt.com...
#
Sweatshops bad aspect of capitalism - Mail Call
Oct 10, 2003 ... Sweatshops bad aspect of capitalism ... Should we leave them to "die a slow, starving death" in those sweatshops? No, we shouldn't. ...
www.thebatt.com... - Cached - Similar
#
High-tech capitalism reinvents the sweatshop
As long as society is run by capitalists, as long as profit is the economic mode of operation, sweatshops will exist and thrive. ...
www.hartford-hwp.com... - Similar
#
How 'Sweatshops' Help the Poor by Thomas DiLorenzo
Nov 9, 2006 ... One of the oldest myths about capitalism is the notion that ... claim that most foreign "sweatshops" utilize some kind of slave labor. ...
www.lewrockwell.com... - Cached - Similar
#
Sweatshop Labor, Sweatshop Movement - Monthly Review
Sweatshops should remind one that capitalism is analogous to those animals that simply cannot be domesticated. Regardless of the restraints put on it, ...
www.monthlyreview.org... - Cached - Similar
#
Sweatshops: capitalism's demons! | NowPublic News Coverage
Jan 13, 2009 ... The BBC has dug up a good story: sweatshops in Manchester, England! One of their reporters went under-cover to work in the factory that ...
www.nowpublic.com... - Cached
#
America's high-tech sweatshops (capitalism, companies, interest ...
7 posts - 7 authors - Last post: Oct 8, 2009
America’s high-tech sweatshops - BusinessWeek.com- msnbc.com This is what happens when you have un-restrained capitalism run amok....
www.city-data.com... - Cached - Similar
#
Make Capitalism History? - Activism - Hippyland
Poverty is an essential component of globalised capitalism. The ills of sweatshop labour, for example, are well documented. Sweatshops are perhaps the ...
www.hippy.com...
reply to post by Skyfloating
[edit on 23-1-2010 by drew hempel]
#
Sweatshops represent capitalism at its best - Mail Call
Oct 9, 2003 ... Sweatshops are a great example of the virtues of free trade and freemarkets. Consider what conditions the citizens of third world countries ...
media.www.thebatt.com...
#
Sweatshops bad aspect of capitalism - Mail Call
Oct 10, 2003 ... Sweatshops bad aspect of capitalism ... Should we leave them to "die a slow, starving death" in those sweatshops? No, we shouldn't. ...
www.thebatt.com... - Cached - Similar
#
High-tech capitalism reinvents the sweatshop
As long as society is run by capitalists, as long as profit is the economic mode of operation, sweatshops will exist and thrive. ...
www.hartford-hwp.com... - Similar
#
How 'Sweatshops' Help the Poor by Thomas DiLorenzo
Nov 9, 2006 ... One of the oldest myths about capitalism is the notion that ... claim that most foreign "sweatshops" utilize some kind of slave labor. ...
www.lewrockwell.com... - Cached - Similar
#
Sweatshop Labor, Sweatshop Movement - Monthly Review
Sweatshops should remind one that capitalism is analogous to those animals that simply cannot be domesticated. Regardless of the restraints put on it, ...
www.monthlyreview.org... - Cached - Similar
#
Sweatshops: capitalism's demons! | NowPublic News Coverage
Jan 13, 2009 ... The BBC has dug up a good story: sweatshops in Manchester, England! One of their reporters went under-cover to work in the factory that ...
www.nowpublic.com... - Cached
#
America's high-tech sweatshops (capitalism, companies, interest ...
7 posts - 7 authors - Last post: Oct 8, 2009
America’s high-tech sweatshops - BusinessWeek.com- msnbc.com This is what happens when you have un-restrained capitalism run amok....
www.city-data.com... - Cached - Similar
#
Make Capitalism History? - Activism - Hippyland
Poverty is an essential component of globalised capitalism. The ills of sweatshop labour, for example, are well documented. Sweatshops are perhaps the ...
www.hippy.com...
reply to post by Skyfloating
[edit on 23-1-2010 by drew hempel]
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