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Why would the President be denied access to UFO documents?

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posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 12:01 PM
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reply to post by sparrowstail
 


Indeed i believe that is the case




posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 12:24 PM
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Originally posted by mossme89
I'm hearing all these rumors regarding disclosure, and a theme that keeps reappearing is that Obama is pushing for disclosure, but is actually denied access to the documents regarding UFO's and ET's.

My question is: How is it possible the he COULD be denied access? I mean, he's the President, if he requests access to documents, as the commander in chief he has the right to receive these documents.

What do you guys think?


What if the President of the United States is denied access to said information because there are men above him- top men
-who have been supplementing the DNA of all previous Presidents with alien DNA, in cahoots with our space brothers/hungry alien beasts..

They don't want him to find that out,as the supplemenal alien DNA perverts the will of the president to further the alien agenda.

Hilary knows...Look at her eyes.
(not for too long though,it will damage you)

Be afraid(of my hypothesis).






posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 12:24 PM
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I want to interject to point out to a possibility that isn't being mentioned. Some people seem to base their perspectives and theories on the assumption that if Presidents had access to the information the so called 'disclosure' would surely happen, and that such 'disclosure' hasn't happened because Presidents have been denied access.

This is erroneous on many levels. Some based on the ignorance of explicit requirements and restrictions in classified information guidelines, and others based on the assumption that Presidents—having been briefed about the information—would want to share the information with the public.

I agree that, if this information exists within the Government, it most likely has the highest form of classification and would require need-to-know. In normal circumstances there would be no reason for a President—especially a newly elected one and with no military or intelligence connections prior to taking office—to be briefed about such sensitive information.

As you surely are aware, need-to-know prevents anyone from accessing certain information unless access to that information is required for performing their duties. This means that a General might not be in the loop in regards to certain information or operation, while other people, much lower on the chain of command, might be if access to that information is vital to their duties. So it's easy to extrapolate that example and apply it to the President.

Having said that however, the executive orders that deal with the guidelines and procedures for dealing with classified national security information—currently in effect is Executive Order 13526 of December 29 2009 signed by Pres. Obama—clearly define the President has the highest authority when it comes to matters of classified national information.

Sec. 1.3. Classification Authority.
(a) The authority to classify information originally may be exercised only by:
(1) the President and the Vice President;
(2) agency heads and officials designated by the President; and
(3) United States Government officials delegated this authority pursuant to paragraph (c) of this section.

People have mentioned "black projects" also known as "Special Access Programs" (SAP). On §4.3 of the Executive Order, the chain of authority is established with the President as the person with the highest authority.

(a) Establishment of special access programs. Unless otherwise authorized by the President, only the Secretaries of State, Defense, Energy, and Homeland Security, the Attorney General, and the Director of National Intelligence, or the principal deputy of each, may create a special access program. For special access programs pertaining to intelligence sources, methods, and activities (but not including military operational, strategic, and tactical programs), this function shall be exercised by the Director of National Intelligence.
On §4.3(b)(3) it's established that, regardless of the sensitivity of information or operations, at least the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office shall be given access.

(3) Special access programs shall be subject to the oversight program established under section 5.4(d) of this order. In addition, the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office shall be afforded access to these programs, in accordance with the security requirements of each program, in order to perform the functions assigned to the Information Security Oversight Office under this order. An agency head may limit access to a special access program to the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office and no more than one other employee of the Information Security Oversight Office or, for special access programs that are extraordinarily sensitive and vulnerable, to the Director only.
The Information Security Oversight Office "is responsible to the President for policy and oversight of the Government-wide security classification system and the National Industrial Security Program."

The executive order also establishes the President as the highest authority for delegating classification powers.

(gg) ‘‘Original classification authority’’ means an individual authorized in writing, either by the President, the Vice President, or by agency heads or other officials designated by the President, to classify information in the first instance.


In conclusion, the notion that the President doesn't have access to the information, if he wanted to, is legally unfounded and stems from UFO conspiracy lore, in my opinion.

Now I'm sure many will promptly point out that I am being naive and forgetting the "secret Government," "people behind the scenes who actually control the Government." That might be all true, but if we're trying to have a serious discussion about these things we have to focus on what the facts are and what we can prove.

Of course it's understandable that people—especially here—would rather believe there hasn't been 'disclosure' because there of this shadow Government denying Presidents access to the information, rather than believe that perhaps there is nothing concretely to disclose in the first place; or that the President, having been briefed, has—in his judgment—decided the information shouldn't be disclosed.


[edit on 23-1-2010 by converge]



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by mossme89
I'm hearing all these rumors regarding disclosure, and a theme that keeps reappearing is that Obama is pushing for disclosure, but is actually denied ...


Why would a representing body such as an employee of an XYZ company be denied to view the bank statements or a dairy of the financial plans of his employer (boss).



[edit on 1/23/2010 by krystalice]



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 12:31 PM
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Plausible deniability.

mossme89


Really? But couldn't he order them to give the information?

I think all the Presidents after Kennedy, know not to get to big for their
britches.


[edit on 23-1-2010 by randyvs]



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 12:32 PM
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reply to post by converge
 



OP by convergeThe executive order also establishes the President as the highest authority for delegating classification powers.


Does that mean that there is no level of classification which is considered to be too "top secret" for even the president?
If he classifies EVERYTHING,I guess that is the case,which exposes the myth that exists within UFOlogy that their are in fact levels too secret for the president to see.

Thanks for your links,it helps put things into perspective.



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by Silcone Synapse
 


The president does not have the power or authority to blow the whistle just when he wishes despite all know intel; he is governed by his advisers and he can only govern and perform actions based on what the advisers decide upon.

If advisers decide its time for disclosure; I highly doubt yet I speculate that the president will have a very limited ability to object any recommendations by his subordinates.

It is not conspiracy theory; it's just how things run in a high-end bloated capitalist country; long was the king and queen that had the ability to object decisions of their subordinated advisers.


If he classifies EVERYTHING,I guess that is the case,which exposes the myth that exists within UFOlogy that their are in fact levels too secret for the president to see.

That is a very narrow logic that I am afraid we'd have third-world country keep better secrets than us.


[edit on 1/23/2010 by krystalice]



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by krystalice
He can never classify

That goes against the Executive Order that I've just discussed and linked. Would you care to back up your claim—that the "President can never classify"—with evidence, or are we supposed to take your word for it even though it contradicts the current regulations?



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by converge

Originally posted by krystalice
He can never classify

That goes against the Executive Order that I've just discussed and linked. Would you care to back up your claim—that the "President can never classify"—with evidence, or are we supposed to take your word for it even though it contradicts the current regulations?


I am sorry I have not read your post; but I explain my logic to the following context of clause in Classification Authority section 1.3


Classification Authority section 1.3.

(a) The authority to classify information originally may be exercised only by:

(1) the President and the Vice President;
(2) agency heads and officials designated by the President; and
(3) United States Government officials delegated this authority pursuant to paragraph (c) of this section.


(1) the President and the Vice President;

As you have mentioned the infamous phrase Need to Know Basis than surely nothing can be exercised under section 1.3 until and only when Sec 1.3 (1 to 3) governing bodies are briefed with a delicate knowledge to the matters concerning highest level of intelligence.

(2) agency heads and officials designated by the President; and

As a fact; president Harry S. Truman in 1947 in accordance of the congress by the National Security Act of 1947 the CIA governing body was created and intelligence was designated authority for the head bodies of the organisation within CIA and many other secret high clearance agencies like NSA.

Having said that; it does not give the merit of thought or will for any newly elected president just to pork his nose of curiosity yet alone be advised of all the top high level secrets the country posses. If that was the case; we'd have presidents turning into cardiac arrests with heart attacks, not to mention the amount of potential depression their suffer from thus preventing them to perform in the speeches and representations in their duty.

People often question as to why the presidents of acting careers are favored, well their firstly and most importantly posses positive mental attitude of an actor. With an excellence in communication skills; even actors like the president Regan was incredible, remembering his lurky speech about "aliens among us", its all just acting nothing more nothing less.

Even Mr Olympia Arnold who is nothing more than an actor is representing the state of California, the most populated state in the USA. Heck i'd not be surprised if he'd run for a president one day until our laws are further smudged to satisfy the capitalist ideals of-course.

Not all intelligence is for the kind hearted.

[edit on 1/23/2010 by krystalice]



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 01:29 PM
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reply to post by krystalice
 


I understand that the pres does not have the power to "blow the whistle",But I am correct in deducing from the post of converge,that the pres/vice are responsible for all classifications?

en.wikisource.org...

This is what i am wondering,does that order prevent any information from reaching the president,or does that order give the president full control of any information classification?

In orther words,is there any level ofinfo that the prsesident cannot access?

Not according to EO 13526.



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 01:47 PM
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I remember hearing something from an insider on a documentary or something when asked why couldn't the President be shown or brought into the loop on ufo secrecy. The reply was the person who brought the info to him would be subject to prosecution by laws governing homeland or national security and so it boiled down to essentially it being illegal for the president to know such things unless there is a need.

Buddy said no insider was willing to take the risk of federal prosecution or something like this. I know I can't prove this by citing it but I think for the sake of the argument that the line of thinking seems logical.



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by krystalice
As you have mentioned the infamous phrase Need to Know Basis than surely nothing can be exercised under section 1.3 until and only when Sec 1.3 (1 to 3) governing bodies are briefed with a delicate knowledge to the matters concerning highest level of intelligence.

§1.3 establishes authority to classify information—who can classify information. I addressed and quoted this to demonstrate that the President is at the top of the chain of authority to classify information, in support of my argument in my first post.

It's in §4.1 that restrictions and conditions for access are defined

Sec. 4.1. General Restrictions on Access.
(a) A person may have access to classified information provided that:
(1) a favorable determination of eligibility for access has been made by an agency head or the agency head's designee;
(2) the person has signed an approved nondisclosure agreement; and
(3) the person has a need-to-know the information.
Agency is defined as

(b) ‘‘Agency’’ means any ‘‘Executive agency,’’ as defined in 5 U.S.C. 105; any ‘‘Military department’’ as defined in 5 U.S.C. 102; and any other entity within the executive branch that comes into the possession of classified information.
Need-to-know is defined as

(dd) ‘‘Need-to-know’’ means a determination within the executive branch in accordance with directives issued pursuant to this order that a prospective recipient requires access to specific classified information in order to perform or assist in a lawful and authorized governmental function.

It is apparent to me that, since access and classification are at the discretion and authority of the executive branch, being the head of the executive branch, the President has authority over all of them.



As a fact; president Harry S. Truman in 1947 in accordance of the congress by the National Security Act of 1947 the CIA governing body was created and intelligence was designated authority for the head bodies of the organisation within CIA and many other secret high clearance agencies like NSA.

Both the CIA and NSA, through their respective directors, report to the Director of National Intelligence (DNI), who in turn reports directly to the President.

50 US Code 15, I, §403 defines the powers, roles and authority of the Director of National Intelligence. Under paragraph (b), titled "Principal responsibility", we can read

(b) Principal responsibility
Subject to the authority, direction, and control of the President, the Director of National Intelligence shall—(...)
50 US Code 15, I, §403-1 states that

(a) Provision of intelligence
(1) The Director of National Intelligence shall be responsible for ensuring that national intelligence is provided—
(A) to the President;
(B) to the heads of departments and agencies of the executive branch;
(C) to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and senior military commanders;
(D) to the Senate and House of Representatives and the committees thereof; and
(E) to such other persons as the Director of National Intelligence determines to be appropriate.
Under paragraph (b) titled "Access to intelligence" we can read

(b) Access to intelligence
Unless otherwise directed by the President, the Director of National Intelligence shall have access to all national intelligence and intelligence related to the national security which is collected by any Federal department, agency, or other entity, except as otherwise provided by law or, as appropriate, under guidelines agreed upon by the Attorney General and the Director of National Intelligence.

If the President has the authority and power to limit the access of the Director of National Intelligence to intelligence, and the DNI—by rule, unless specified—has access to all intelligence, it's clear the President is the highest authority in these matters.



Not all intelligence is for the kind hearted.

I completely agree, but that sort of thing can't be codified though. It depends on the judgment of the person that has the authority to grant access to information.

But if the President is the person with the highest authority, what are the (legal) grounds for some agency head, or other Government official, to deny access to the President to certain information?



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 02:13 PM
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reply to post by mossme89
 


the president has no more power over the gov. as you or i do yeah we have a choice in electing officials but in the end its just o keep us happy from revolting in the end the go.v will do what it wants to do the president is just a face we elect for the gov. he has very litter power didnt you pay attention in government class? but liek i said he is just a face we put on it he only has access to very little information why would the gov. take a chance on lettin presidents in on info just to have to assassinate him before he told anyone what he knew



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by Silcone Synapse
I understand that the pres does not have the power to "blow the whistle",But I am correct in deducing from the post of converge,that the pres/vice are responsible for all classifications?

No, that's not it. The President and Vice-President are not responsible for all classifications. They are the first in the chain of authority, that include others, that can classify information.

In the other paragraphs (in §1.3) the people, besides the President and Vice-President, who can classify information are established, namely

(2) agency heads and officials designated by the President; and
(3) United States Government officials delegated this authority pursuant to paragraph (c) of this section.
In paragraph (c) it goes a little more in depth

(c) Delegation of original classification authority.
So other than the President and the Vice-President, agency heads (CIA, NSA, DIA, etc) and people designated by the original classification authority. The original classification authority is the individual that initially classified the information.

(gg) ‘‘Original classification authority’’ means an individual authorized in writing, either by the President, the Vice President, or by agency heads or other officials designated by the President, to classify information in the first instance.



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by sparrowstail
I remember hearing something from an insider on a documentary or something when asked why couldn't the President be shown or brought into the loop on ufo secrecy. The reply was the person who brought the info to him would be subject to prosecution by laws governing homeland or national security and so it boiled down to essentially it being illegal for the president to know such things unless there is a need. (...)
I know I can't prove this by citing it but I think for the sake of the argument that the line of thinking seems logical.

Maybe we can prove it.

I remember a while ago reading someone's theory that, considering the time frame, the UFO information would have been classified with the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 guidelines and regulations. This person's argument was based on the fact that those regulations were much tighter and would leave everyone, without exception, without access unless they had need-to-know.

A real world example of this aspect was the fact that Harry Truman was Vice-President and wasn't told about the Manhattan Project until he became President.

I haven't carefully read the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, but maybe we can find regulations in there that would contemplate denying access even to the President and prove—in theory, of course—that it could be done.

This is all assuming that the United States Government has such information about UFOs and aliens, and that it was classified through the Atomic Energy Act guidelines.



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 02:55 PM
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reply to post by mossme89
 


From what I have heard, UFO technology and other types of secret technology have been classified as weapons. As such, weapons are the purview of the military and some of the intelligence agencies that control those so called classified and secret weapons want to keep it that way.

Because they are classified as weapons and weapons fall under the military, it stands to reason the military is not going to volunteer this knowledge. However, if Obama had some evidence of such a secret, it could be used to push pressure on the military to come clean. I don't believe that the military will ever give up such technology which are called weapons because it would raise so many questions to a sitting president that it would and could reveal much more than the military want the president to be informed about.

It would be risky at best for those that control the secret technology and keeping it secret is the only concern those that possess and use the technology care about. As such, I find it normal to not volunteer all of the nations secrets without a need to know to any sitting president.

If Obama feels the need to be in the know about all the secrets that American possesses then there will be many that will claim he only wants to know in order to profit from its knowledge and will most likely abuse the technology for profit instead of benefiting the nation or the world. While I am certain Obama knows how to get around the law, if he really wants to know, he will begin changing some laws or will generate an executive order to get the answers he seeks. Short of that, no one is going to give Obama anything except what the law provides for.



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 03:12 PM
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reply to post by converge
 


But he can't classify or declassify something he doesn't know about in the first place and that's the core of the problem as i described on the first page if you read those points...



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 03:28 PM
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reply to post by sparrowstail
 


You're making a non-sequitur argument. You posted sightings None of that has anything to do with Disclosure, the President being denied access or any other conspiracy theory.



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 03:29 PM
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As Clinton said...there is a government within the government...they are not elected and they are the ones that have the real power..

Clinton spoke a number of times on this shadow government power/NWO thing...basically said we are fukt in this regard...they answer to nobody.

Clinton knew the score, and was frustrated by it. He was just another joe to these powermongers.



posted on Jan, 23 2010 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by Cybernet
But he can't classify or declassify something he doesn't know about in the first place and that's the core of the problem as i described on the first page if you read those points...

I fail to understand your point. Of course people can't take action over things they don't know about, but the point some people have been making, including you, is that someone else has the power to deny access to that information if the President wanted to know. And that is what I've been contesting—access—not whether Obama has tried to find out if the information exists or not.



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