Court Rules That Mass Surveillance of Americans is Immune From Judicial Review

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

I applaud your semtiments, Proto. But I think you misinterpret mine.

I am no coward!
In fact, I mean to create an ends to this madness!

I am in fact, more dangerous than most (this is what I mean to avoid)...

Everyone knows the danger. We are all here. We see the reports.

What I'm saying is that now the time is to nod and say.. "okay, thanks for the report. They are in the wrong and one day they will be cast assunder. Afteral, that is the scripture they justify through proxy, right?"

Sorry to be cryptic.
I am no coward.

Jay I know you are not a coward and you are simply suggesting that often discretion is the better part of valor.

That one should walk softly and carry a big stick.

Big sticks simply do not fit in my pockets!

There was a time when you could count on our hopelessly corrupt government to likewise at least be discrete in its machinations and endeavors but it has gotten sloppy and arrogant, in fact its arrogance seems to now know no bounds.

In my humble opinion there are times when the squeaky wheel gets the grease strategy works effectively. In fact the increasingly squeaky wheel that is our government that no longer even bothers to scheme with any form of discretion but broadcasts its unconstitutional practices and ambitions far and wide needs some grease.

The grease of an increasingly unhappy and frustrated populace that even now most liberal and conservative previously staunch supporters of government are disillusioned and unhappy with it and the very best grease in my humble opinion is a rising cacophony of discerning and critical voices rising to such a crescendo in both fervor and pitch that the unbalanced and wobbly wheel of government realizes it is wiser to abandon their desires for unlimited power and control because America is vocally and loudly as well as steadfastly opposed to it and prepared to confront it.

The stealth approach in my humble opinion simply can not work because our government does not need some form of discrete surgery at this point, it needs a enema and to be flushed and cleansed in all most its entirety in a massive shift and reversal of its course.

The government in its unbridled audacity is challenging and confronting the people head on, the people need to challenge it head on with equal abandon so that there are no misgivings or illusions on the part of government that this form of governance will be tolerated by the American people.

If you look at almost every message that the government is putting out and almost every message and theme on these boards is be afraid, be very afraid, be afraid of the government, be afraid of terrorists, be afraid of anyone who doesn’t think, behave and act as the government and the corporate mainstream media says.

The people are afraid too, embarrassingly and disgustingly so, cowering in the face of things constantly that no American should cower in the face of.

It is the government at this point that should be afraid, for it is not the people’s excesses that have caused all this fear; it is government and corporate excesses that have caused all this fear.

The government and the corporations absolutely will not change their agendas and their tactics, and mode unless they are absolutely dissuaded from it by an angry, boisterous and a belligerent population that shows the government in kind the same lack of respect, and a level of disrespect commensurate to the lack of respect and the level of disrespect but even greater than those that it has displayed so foolishly towards we the people.

We do not work for or serve the government, the government works for and serves us, and the moment our tongues fall silent is that time when the government will believe that we work for and serve it.

This situation with our government has grown intolerable and the only way the people can and will rectify that is to be indomitable an indefatigable with a resoluteness and vigor that neither the government nor the corporate media can deny or spin in anyway shape or form.

We should not go quietly into that goodnight Jay, nay we should rage against the dying of our nation!




[edit on 22/1/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

We should not go quietly into that goodnight Jay, nay we should rage against the dying of our nation!

And that will only serve to expedite the death of "our nation"

Push back indeed, and you only give them cause, reason, justification... If you wish to hasten the loss of liberty and freedom while giving them even greater powers, then by all means... Rage on bro.

The end and rebirth into a twisted Orwellian society requires a means to that end... You have touched on it, but may fail to understand it.

Your only way to take back your country is to do nothing or 300 million people to do nothing, that would get there attention.

Ive been trying to stir people up to what is happening but they just dont see it with all this crap on the media.

These people need someone to show then what is really happening. I for one am trying, and i know alot of people would back getting things to the way they should be.

reply to post by Pajjikor


Leave them to their oblivion... Let them enjoy it while it lasts.

Save their conscious souls from the inevitable for as long as possible.

Fighting it only makes it stronger and life more difficult.

Did any of you actually read the complaint or the decision?

I am appalled by the lack of intelligence on ATS in issues such as this.

The EFF case was brought by people who claimed that they MIGHT have been subject to surveillance. The Heptig case was brought by people who claimed actual invasion of privacy.

The subject complaint, about potential for surveillance is a POLITICAL question, not subject to judicial review.

If you do not like the practice, you have a POLITICAL remedy:
Vote the bastards out.

Quit whining.

If you have been targeted, you have a LEGAL issue. Your 4th and 1st amendment rights remain intact.

The failure of our secondary schools to inculcate any semblance of knowledge of American history or jurisprudence is disgusting.

Every single whiner here who does not understand their rights, the basics of English grammar and spelling, or the most recent fragments of constitutional jurisprudence should just go back to their Nintendo or Wii or Warcraft, and let the grownups deal with the real issues.

jw

reply to post by jdub297


How do we know if we are being monitored?

reply to post by ventian

How old are you?

You ARE being monitored.

jw

Who physically does this monitoring? Humans,...super-computer? I'm sure, at the very least, they gather info on targeted groups, but I'm having trouble understanding how the physical process itself would operate on a scale where millions are surveilled, given the manpower it would take to do it. Does anyone know? It seems like a tedious task that is largely pointless for a government unless you've got intel on some dissident group who's gonna overthrow the government.

I mean, the majority of us are just living a daily routine and pose no threat. Who the hell cares what the average guy is talking about on his cell phone or what he's posting on some social website? It seems to be an exercise in futility.
If this is truly the goal of any of our governments, then whomever is at the heart of this operation is a paranoid mental case. Either that or they need to cut back on their crack smoking.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

How can America keep criticizing North Korea when we are becoming so close to them day by day?

I never cease to be amazed at your inane logic - wiretapping, something that has been going on in the US since "wires" were invented, instantly puts us on a level with North Korea.

Yes this isn't a positive step, but try and show some balance.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


With justice, they have to keep refiring the cannon of justice until the right decision is reached, and they've gone through the BAD JUDGES, telling all of them that they are here as the employer group and that they are monitoring the employees actions in each of these cases, and if they side on TREASON and FASCISM they ARE FIRED, and the people will ensure they will never hold public office again. I think public groups to charge bad judges with treason should be started as well.


[edit on 23-1-2010 by Unity_99]

Sorry if these exact opinions of how to solve this, what i percieve, as a serious problem. They have all the money, technology, and resources, so therefore, a direct attack is foolish. In most cases, IMO, direct attack/confrontation ought be rare, if ever applied. For, if intelligient enough, one can penetrate their interior, set it ablaze, and safely run out before the whole thing explodes on itself. So, there are realistically, IMO, two ways to control the outcome instead of waiting for someone else to do it FOR you. a.) continue to play this "social" role, while secretly talking to people, spreading the word, recruit people of similar ideals, and create a vast network that can accomplish things on large scale peaceful level with slight aggression to getting things done and cleaned ASAP. b) you can boycott, STOP playing the game, and being the victim. There are alternatives. Obviously, these forums are monitored and reviewed, but you disappear. Gather resources, knowledge, and money (if "currency" is still around by then). And you set up shop in a very secret location, and become self-sufficient and independent of any other, of any "law", any "court ruling".

If enough people do what i call "boycott", the system will inevitably collapse for there will be no consumers/sheeple keeping it afloat. By this time, it's obvious there are many "boycott" communities, self-sustaining and self-defended. From there, the boycotted communities create themselves a network/"resistance" (if you will). Penetrate the "common man" (the few there will be), and establish a new seperate SOVERIGN government of your own, united by said and said things, under said and said rules.

Which would you do? Which would you prefer? You must not "sell your soul" in the attempt to "save the world". For does it matter if you destroy YOURself along the way? Become the very monster you've been destroying?

That's why I am, personally, going with option B of suggested alternatives that would be most suitable to my needs as I see them to be. Peace, honest and simple hard work for a living, accompanied by friends/family and a few material goods to add to the already peaceful, harmonized community we'll have created for ourselves. Wait for society to weaken or destroy itself, or both, then come in and help put everything back in order, hopefully, the RIGHT way this time.


On a side note, I feel any governmental entity to possess the title on Earth of so, ought to be carefully and COMPLETELY monitored by civilian watch groups and that it is, not only important, but crucial for every citizen to be involved, constantly dabbaling here, dabbaling there, helping and learning here. Community service should be a founding stone of our future, obviously not mandatory but, I feel it's an important lesson for "man" to learn, for it is due to lack of involvement that the situation has shaped how it has. Corruption. Until most the people are ready to be entirely free for eternity, they need first CARE for it, which is the problem. All in all, all the people should actively be monitoring EVERY thing the gov't does. Constantly changing from one topic/area to another to avoid penetration or corruption. That is your only way to SEE the wool being pulled over your eyes, is to look and BE there to look in first place. Sorry for side rant.... hope I was helpful. U2U me for more details if care to...

Originally posted by NightGypsy
Who physically does this monitoring? Humans,...super-computer? I'm sure, at the very least, they gather info on targeted groups, but I'm having trouble understanding how the physical process itself would operate on a scale where millions are surveilled, given the manpower it would take to do it. Does anyone know? It seems like a tedious task that is largely pointless for a government unless you've got intel on some dissident group who's gonna overthrow the government.

I mean, the majority of us are just living a daily routine and pose no threat. Who the hell cares what the average guy is talking about on his cell phone or what he's posting on some social website? It seems to be an exercise in futility.
If this is truly the goal of any of our governments, then whomever is at the heart of this operation is a paranoid mental case. Either that or they need to cut back on their crack smoking.

We are basically monitored constantly in three ways and forums.

The first is our telephone conversations. They are all recorded, and I mean all of them are recorded, the entire world over by the NSA in Ft. Mead Maryland.

Initially all the calls are listened to by a computer programmed to detect certain keywords. How often key words are used in the conversation and in what company and frequency with other keywords determine whether a call is going to get flagged or not based on the actual use of the keywords in combination with where the call is coming from and going to.

Obviously people talk about terrorists all the time, and the war on terror and some of the things that happen in the war on terror, as well as other forms of criminal enterprises as well as also talking about dissatisfaction with the government and specific government officials.

So the computers listen for a combination of keywords that would suggest the call is not just two people talking and discussing or complaining about politics and world events, but are possibly actually engaged in those things in an active way instead of a passive way.

Obviously too if a call originates say in a Muslim neighborhood of Detroit calling someone in a key nation like Yemen that too creates additional flags that the computers notice and will single out for further review, just as a certain number and combination of keywords will flag the conversation for review, or a call originating or going to a number that has already been flagged to be watched for extra scrutiny.

Those calls will then be routed to either other more sophisticated computers programmed to search out greater context in how the keywords are being used or in what combination as to whether they will be flagged for an actual human being to review.

Eventually if enough elements are present in any call that a series of computer reviews continues to flag then a series of actual humans will review the call to reviewing its context in its entirety and whether known code words are being used.

If enough of the human reviewers believe either party engaged in the call could be a legitimate threat to the government or even another government then that’s when they will decide to actually order cell phone companies and communications company to give the government for live access as calls are actually then taking place through a constantly listened to wiretap or a constantly recorded wire tap that will always get human review in short order.

Online on the internet they use data bots to read through everyone’s emails and chats and blogs looking for those key words in a very similar process. If the Data mining bots find enough keywords in enough combinations that will then trigger a human review by a number of humans looking for context and code words.

If they think the person represents a legitimate thread that’s when once again they will get an order to give to that person’s ISP provider to grant live real time access to the persons internet account.

Finally more and more major metropolitan areas have their entire downtown business and entertainment sections and sometimes even the suburbs and residential and warehouse sections covered with cameras.

There are very few parts of London England that aren’t under constant 24/7 video surveillance and in addition to human monitors watching the flow and movements of the public at large for criminal or suspicious behavior the computers are also programmed for facial recognition so that when ever one of those people is picked up on a camera it’s immediately flagged.

Satellites are also extensively used to photograph people in more remote locations and more intensive situations.

While there are a lot of people who imagine this all makes us safer some how, you really have to ask yourself if you really want to live a life on a planet as a being, and constantly have some group monitoring your every movement, your every word, your every action, and your every friend and associate to determine if it meets with their approval?

They are in fact turning the world into one giant penitentiary were increasingly people aren’t just being told what not to do, but what they should be doing, and what they shouldn’t be saying, and what they shouldn’t be thinking, and what they should be saying and what they should be thinking.

Frankly I would rather get blown up by a random act of terrorism, than live my entire life in a society, where society itself wants me to always be afraid of whether I am saying, thinking and doing the right thing, through being monitored constantly in every way shape and form.

People who would trade their freedoms for security are in fact going to end up with neither. The government can’t protect us from everything, and it’s a foolish notion to imagine that they could or empower them to that order.

Originally posted by Walkswithfish
The illusion of privacy is no longer necessary. That is what should scare you.

Unless you are targeted for surveillance you have nothing to fear.

Do nothing that will threaten them and you will be okay.

Your lives and EVERYTHING you do is an open and adjustable book for them.

Exactly!
A Star to you!
What was this company doing to provoke the eyes of the NSA?
Were they attempting to harm The USA in any way? If yes, then,
Go NSA, Go NSA, Go NSA, it's your birfday, it's your birfday,
Go, Go, Go . GO!

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
reply to post by ModernAcademia

 

looks like america is heading down the same path as britain. no privacy all security.

There will be no security, ever.

No amount of spying will prevent random acts of retribution.

Have no fear, they will pay dearly.

All we have to do is sit back and watch, these idiots are building a house of cards that will collapse quickly.

Their major mistakes were many-fold. No human is perfect, and cannot foresee the multitude of possibilities. This means they are screwed and this unsustainable form of society will fall apart in short order.

Essentially they are lighting a stick of dynamite in their hands, and the fuse is about 1 centimeter long.

all it takes is a gun to take away ur freedom.

Originally posted by Equinox99
What do you plan to do about it? Who do you think should lead the charge against these lunatics? They hold the main source to all of America's minds, Television. The biggest news companies are all friends and most likely own shares in other smaller companies.

The key is to have lots of entertainment so the people don't care about real news. That is why Athletes get paid $50 million for 5 years, to keep you guys busy and in a zombie like state.

You guys must seriously do something soon. Because there will be future false flags against the people. This won't stop until you guys round people up and make a change. You don't need a revolution, what you need is 1/2 a million people in front of the white house demanding change.

if i could give you a thousand stars i would

Originally posted by jdub297
Did any of you actually read the complaint or the decision?

I am appalled by the lack of intelligence on ATS in issues such as this.

The EFF case was brought by people who claimed that they MIGHT have been subject to surveillance. The Heptig case was brought by people who claimed actual invasion of privacy.

The subject complaint, about potential for surveillance is a POLITICAL question, not subject to judicial review.

If you do not like the practice, you have a POLITICAL remedy:
Vote the bastards out.

Yes I read it and attached part of it that bothers me here:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/dff6aa493eac.png[/atsimg]

To paraphrase, the actions were dismissed because the court doesn't feel we have standing to ask our government to "act in accordance with the law".

I thought that's what the court was supposed to do, enforce the law? If the court won't do it, who will?

As for voting the bastards out, it's not the president and congress that are doing illegal spying, it's security agencies like the NSA and we don't vote for those folks. Sure the president may have asked for it, but his request should have been met with the reply "sure, get the laws changed so it's legal for us to do it and we'll gladly comply" The people we DID vote for passed laws, and those laws weren't followed. If the president requested the security agency to commit an illegal act, I don't know if that's a crime or not, but to fulfill that request by actually committing an illegal act, should be a crime. The corporations that were complicit in that violation also broke the law as far as I can tell and the wording of this ruling seems to acknowledge that the government was NOT following the law.

It looks to me like something is broken in the way the system is supposed to work, as someone said earlier there are supposed to be checks and balances, and I thought there were, but after reading this, I'm not so sure there are! That's disturbing.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


This action by the SCOTUS is also a violation of our right to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Since we have "No standing". So the 1st and 4th amendment don't apply here apparently.

The Constitution has been perverted to no end on this issue.

[edit on 24-1-2010 by projectvxn]