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Are the Laws of Physics Unique to Our Universe? (A Galaxy Classic)

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posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 07:21 PM
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www.dailygalaxy.com...


Quote from source:

Chris Knight, the finest fictional physicist of our time, once said "All science. No Philosophy. Wrong." It's true that an understanding of existence outside of equations is vital for scientists, both in terms of enjoying life and avoiding things like Agent Orange, but beware careless combination of the two. A science/philosophy mixture can lead to metaphysical claims that the laws of physics are nothing but local zoning ordinances, as demonstrated by Lee Smolin.

Smolin is author of "the fecund universes theory" of cosmology which suggests that the rules of biology apply on the grandest scales, and is often referred to as "cosmological natural selection". Smolin summarized the idea in his book, The Life of the Cosmos.

The theory surmises that a collapsing black hole causes the emergence of a new universe on the "other side", whose fundamental constant parameters (speed of light, Planck length and so forth) may differ slightly from those of the universe where the black hole collapsed. Each universe therefore gives rise to as many new universes as it has black holes.


I personally love thinking like this as I think anything is possible. I enjoy the thought process of black holes creating other universes, and the amount of universes would be endless.

Such a deep thought process but I am glad there are people out there dedicating their lives to finding out solutions.

Any thoughts?

Pred...




posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 07:39 PM
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reply to post by predator0187
 




Any thoughts?


If you want to suggest that our version of physics is a purely local phenomenon, that seems plausible to me. But I don't easily leap from that idea to the notion of black holes as "portals to somewhere else." An idea I suspect may have been inspired by the disney movie.



posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 07:45 PM
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I'll go one step further.

Are the laws of physics unique to our imagination?



posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 09:29 PM
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reply to post by LordBucket
 


Don't know if I would necessarily say "portals" but maybe a link that we can not cross? I really don't know and if I did I would have a nobel prize!!


I wouldn't say portal though But who is to say that the black hole is not a "big bang" for another universe? Really, we have no idea. I think the only thing that is limiting our science right now is our minds. I cannot wait until we understand our universe a little better because it will help in all applications of our lives.

Thanks


Pred...



posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 09:34 PM
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reply to post by Deny Arrogance
 


See and this is what brings out the scientist in me. Our imagination is endless and the only thing that limits it is our thoughts. I think when we finally learn how to take down the barriers in our minds we will finally achieve what we were/are meant to.

I think what is holding us back is our hatred and animosity towards life in general. Once we get that block away from our minds it will open the rest up. I know people always say the world is a scary place and there is lots of suffering throughout be we are the only animal to kill/torture for our own pleasure.

Hopefully one day we will figure out our true goal, it might make our world bearable...


Pred...



posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 10:09 PM
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reply to post by predator0187
 




Don't know if I would necessarily say "portals" but maybe a link
that we can not cross?


Hmm. Ok, I see the difference...but either way you're suggesting a "point of contact with somewhere else." Difference being whether or not we can cross that point of contact and go to the somewhere else.



But who is to say that the black hole is not a "big bang" for another universe?


Well, I'm familiar with only three models of what black holes are:

1) The "science" model: They are tighly compressed balls of matter

2) The "spiritual" model: They are very late-development STS consciousnesses.

3) The disney model: They are portals to somewhere else.

I see #1 and #2 as being compatible with one another. But neither seem compatible with #3. Forgive my bias...but I would personally tend to lean towards the view of mainstream science and/or the view of certain spiritualists before I would guess that disney got it right.


[edit on 21-1-2010 by LordBucket]



posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 10:22 PM
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I beleive physics, has and can be broken. I am in no mood to discuss it further, yet I will write more about it tomarrow..

I have seen things in the physicalities of reality that defy the law of physics. Nor do I seek the dear will of attention for that..

But I will write about it when I am clear minded tomarrow..

good topic and I will add my opinon and idea's to it...



posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 11:57 PM
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reply to post by LordBucket
 


Well yeah I guess, but I don't really mean contact, maybe like a window


Black holes are tightly compressed matter yes, but they also release "hawking radiation." ( en.wikipedia.org... )black holes also have a counterpart of a white hole, which is a time reversal of a black hole, but again theories...( casa.colorado.edu... )

But the matter that is being sucked in would have to go somewhere right? Physics also says that energy can not be created or destroyed. That's why it is so interesting is because we really have no idea about stuff like that, we have educated guesses, but they are still guesses.


We could learn a few tiny things tomorrow which would make theories today look like us compared to Fred Flintstone. I think that is why it is so interesting because we really know nothing.


Makes it fun though....no where to go but up.
unless politics brings their game into science, then everyone loses....

Pred...

[edit on 22-1-2010 by predator0187]

[edit on 22-1-2010 by predator0187]



posted on Jan, 22 2010 @ 12:48 AM
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I think before you could say that our laws of physics are "unique to our universe", you would have to prove that there are other universes...hmmmm

And black holes creating a "big bang" for another universe...well, black holes last a bit longer than the split second it takes for a big bang scenario. What does all the other matter that gets sucked into a black hole do the rest of the time.
or does the black hole disappear at the moment of the bang?

Aaaaah shoot! now my . hurts.

Big innit?



posted on Jan, 22 2010 @ 01:20 AM
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Originally posted by nerbot
I think before you could say that our laws of physics are "unique to our universe", you would have to prove that there are other universes...hmmmm

And black holes creating a "big bang" for another universe...well, black holes last a bit longer than the split second it takes for a big bang scenario. What does all the other matter that gets sucked into a black hole do the rest of the time.
or does the black hole disappear at the moment of the bang?

Aaaaah shoot! now my . hurts.

Big innit?


Well I thought that, well not proven, we had evidence. ( library.thinkquest.org... ) I also thought that one of our best theories, the string theory also had 10 dimensions, so some evidence is in the favor of parallel/multiple universes.

Again, I was just thinking about the singularity being the same kind of singularity of the "big bang." I don't know, I would think some matter would get sent through and that might become dark matter and that it is being blown out the whole time and that is why our universe is expanding. Who knows how it is connected maybe the matter/energy has to break down to dark energy to transfer through.

Again, heavy thinking..


Pred...



posted on Jan, 22 2010 @ 02:32 AM
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Can someone please explain to me (or perhaps provide a link to a reputable source) how, scientifically, a black hole could possibly lead to the creation of another universe?

Also, why wouldn't the laws of physics that exist in our universe apply to one which was born out directly of this one?

Assuming this hypothesis is true, wouldn't that mean that our universe too was the product of such an event? Wouldn't that negate everything we know (or at least think we know) about the origin of our universe?



posted on Jan, 22 2010 @ 03:05 AM
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reply to post by predator0187
 




I don't really mean contact, maybe like a window


..."window" goes back to "portal."
Again, why assume that they "go" anywhere?



the matter that is being sucked in would have to go somewhere right?


...how about into a great big pile? Imagine a hole in the ground. When you drop something in the hole, where does it "go?" Well...it goes into the hole. It doesn't magically vanish from this space and appear in another dimension. It just goes into the hole and sits on top of whatever else in already in there.

Why would a black hole be any different?

If it's just a big pile of "stuff" in space...with enough gravity to compact things that fall into it into a very small space...then matter that is "sucked in" simply gets compressed and sits on top of of the pile of other stuff that was already sucked in.

"Hole" is kind of a misleading name. It's not really a "hole" like a whole in the ground, in which a hole is the lack of ground. A black hole is more like a hole in space, in which a "hole" is the lack of empty space. So...pile of stuff. Tightly compressed stuff with some intense gravity, perhaps. But basically just a pile of stuff.

Last I checked, "pile of stuff" is very umch unlike a portal/window to another dimension.



posted on Jan, 22 2010 @ 09:47 AM
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S&F!
There are some hints that we are living on an event horizon of a black hole:




The holographic principle is a property of quantum gravity and string theories which states that the description of a volume of space can be thought of as encoded on a boundary to the region—preferably a light-like boundary like a gravitational horizon. First proposed by Gerard 't Hooft, it was given a precise string-theory interpretation by Leonard Susskind.

In a larger and more speculative sense, the theory suggests that the entire universe can be seen as a two-dimensional information structure "painted" on the cosmological horizon, such that the three dimensions we observe are only an effective description at macroscopic scales and at low energies. Cosmological holography has not been made mathematically precise, partly because the cosmological horizon has a finite area and grows with time.[1][2]


Laws of physic could be different in other universes, in some of them forbidding emergency of life, in some of them encouraging it (ours).

If we live on the surface of a black hole, then the big bang was in fact a gravitational collapse in some other universe, which gave rise to our space-time. This could resolve where did the matter/energy "created" in a big bang came from.



posted on Jan, 22 2010 @ 10:03 AM
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Also, if our universe is just one out of many, it would explain why laws of physic and basic constants seems to be so fine-tuned via anthropic principle:
"We are here asking why are laws of physic so fine-tuned, because if they werent, there would be no one asking these questions in the first place."

If we really live on a black hole, this could explain why our universe seemingly went through a phase of rapid inflation after in was born (this is when the event horizon was created - gravitational collapse), and also why it is continouing in this inflation, even accelerating (our black hole is still accreting matter).



posted on Jan, 22 2010 @ 10:50 AM
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wow lotsa smart idea's I feel like the little fish in the barrel.


we define physics as measurements of space time motion etc. etc.

its how we read reality. I think it is unique to this reality, this reality as in space universes all that we can perceive looking up or down.

Yet past that taking your . outta the hood of the car, is where physics fails to comprehend.



posted on Jan, 22 2010 @ 06:54 PM
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reply to post by LordBucket
 


Haha, okay window is sorta bad, what about a peephole? Like something you can barely see?


I understand your analogy of a hole on Earth but it's like comparing apples and oranges. I understand it is not a "hole" but it is a singularity in time/space, which it is pinch off from the rest. As for matter piling up in the hole it would eventually fill up and cease to exist.

The black hole itself defies physics, as with the primordial foam a couple hundred million years after the big bang. We still don't have a quantum theory of gravity and really no one knows where to start. Everything we know about physics can and will change, and I think when the LHC is up to full power we will understand black holes better as they will be making quantum ones.

I think that a black hole has a chance of linking us to another universe because the singularity pinched off from time/space would be connected to something on the other side that is pinched off from whatever is over there.


If it is not the rip/pinch would be connecting us to perhaps a parallel dimension that is different from our own.

But seriously, who knows?

I enjoy having conversations about this subject matter because it is interesting to get other peoples opinions, and I find it helps me think better. I like to keep an open mind, and not write anything off as impossible because nothing's impossible!!


Now I sound like superman.


Pred...



posted on Jan, 22 2010 @ 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by Maslo
Also, if our universe is just one out of many, it would explain why laws of physic and basic constants seems to be so fine-tuned via anthropic principle:
"We are here asking why are laws of physic so fine-tuned, because if they werent, there would be no one asking these questions in the first place."

If we really live on a black hole, this could explain why our universe seemingly went through a phase of rapid inflation after in was born (this is when the event horizon was created - gravitational collapse), and also why it is continouing in this inflation, even accelerating (our black hole is still accreting matter).


I have heard of us living on a black hole before but never real done any studying into it so I will have to do some more digging into that. Interesting idea for sure but with the amount of matter expelled it would have to have been one hell of a black hole.


It would explain the expanding universe theory because it would be expelling dark particles which is why we are expanding and would again explain dark matter.

I have always had a problem with the expanding universe because they always show it on a balloon and then blow it up. But what drives me nuts about this is how could the universe be exactly the same from all parts of it? Wouldn't it look different, wouldn't there be an outer edge?

Sorry for the rant


I agree with different physics though because if anything was a little bit off in ours it would impact us big time and would change the world around. I think it is just like different dimensions were some can have complex life and some cannot.

Interesting concept and I love the intellectual talk!!


Pred...



posted on Jan, 22 2010 @ 07:12 PM
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Originally posted by Bicent76
wow lotsa smart idea's I feel like the little fish in the barrel.


we define physics as measurements of space time motion etc. etc.

its how we read reality. I think it is unique to this reality, this reality as in space universes all that we can perceive looking up or down.

Yet past that taking your . outta the hood of the car, is where physics fails to comprehend.



I do agree that our physics are of this reality, but if we were ever to make contact with other life forms it could be a different story. We could have always thought the same and can with the same basic principles, or by the off chance that a different galaxy had different physics (not saying they do, but really we don't know) they would have not been able to make it here at all.

The whole concept messes with my mind, we assume that the whole universe has the same basic principles of physics but yet there a few things that are just different. I can wait to see the upcoming years and see what kind of scientific breakthroughs come along.


And you are not a little fish and I appreciate your input on this subject matter. Many of times the best trains of thoughts are made by people that are just learning about the subject!!


Pred..



posted on Jan, 22 2010 @ 10:08 PM
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reply to post by predator0187
 


we'll talk more pred. got the kids and family n some wine tonight...

but yeah lets expand...



posted on Jan, 22 2010 @ 11:45 PM
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Originally posted by LordBucket
If you want to suggest that our version of physics is a purely local phenomenon, that seems plausible to me. But I don't easily leap from that idea to the notion of black holes as "portals to somewhere else." An idea I suspect may have been inspired by the Disney movie.

I found your post amusing, probably because my views are the exact opposite of yours.

Why do you think 'our version of physics' is purely local? Our telescopes show us a universe in which distant objects seem, by and large, to obey the laws of physics we have derived from our observations of more local phenomena. This suggests that the laws in question are universal.

Besides, what explanation would you give for a gravitational constant that varied over different tracts of spacetime, or a speed of light in vacuo that varied at different points in space? How about a reversible thermodynamics? Is there some place in the universe where entropy goes backwards?

What processes could you conceive of that would give rise to such phenomena?

In another universe, such as the ones that Smolin posits unfolding from black holes, it is quite reasonable to suspect that the laws of physics would differ from those we know--but that's another universe. We don't know of the existence of any such universes and it is quite likely that we never can know of them. But even assuming they do exist, describing the immensity of space and time we inhabit as 'local' seems a little excessive.

As to the notion that black holes are portals to somewhere else, it wasn't inspired by the Disney film; on the contrary, that notion inspired the film. Mass-energy falling into a black hole and passing beyond the hole's event horizon does, indeed, leave the universe. This is central to the theory of black holes. We can't knowledgeably answer the question 'where does it go?', not even by answering 'somewhere else', since we don't know that for sure, but it seems a likely hypothesis, no? If it isn't here, chances are it's somewhere else.



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