Cyborgs, Immortality, & The Soul with Virtual Signals

Virtual Signals is at it again....pondering cyborg research, the possibilities of immortality, and The Soul.



Source 1

The gradual enhancement of the human body through mergers with machines will yield a hybrid: the cyborg. Any sufficiently complex system (like a human or an advanced AI computer) that exhibits awareness can realize Enlightenment. So I believe. This claim must still be tested for AIs. Cyborgs, however, can certainly attain anything accessible to humans and even more.

Source 2

Probably the most famous piece of research undertaken by Warwick (and the origin of the nickname, "Captain Cyborg", given to him by The Register) is the set of experiments known as Project Cyborg, in which he had a chip implanted into his arm, with the aim of "becoming a cyborg". The first stage of this research, which began on 1998-08-24, involved a simple RFID transmitter being implanted beneath Warwick's skin, and used to control doors, lights, heaters, and other computer-controlled devices based on his proximity. The main purpose of this experiment was said

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Source 3

Kevin carried out a series of pioneering experiments involving the neuro-surgical implantation of a device into the median nerves of his left arm in order to link his nervous system directly to a computer in order to assess the latest technology for use with the disabled. He was successful with the first extra-sensory (ultrasonic) input for a human and with the first purely electronic communication experiment between the nervous systems of two humans.

~If he, or others after him, are able to complete the transformation...from human to cyborg....What will happen to The Soul? Will it make the transfer as well? Does it exist?~

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What will happen to The Soul? Will it make the transfer as well? Does it exist?

No, it doesn't exist so far as we can tell. I've got several active discussions on this very topic I'm keeping active in, so instead of dipping my toe into another one - I'll let this young lady explain.



and followed up by Cognitive Psychologist, Steven Pinker.

Originally posted by Lasheic

What will happen to The Soul? Will it make the transfer as well? Does it exist?

No, it doesn't exist so far as we can tell. I've got several active discussions on this very topic I'm keeping active in, so instead of dipping my toe into another one - I'll let this young lady explain.

and followed up by Cognitive Psychologist, Steven Pinker.

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, You are right in saying we can't prove that it does exist but we do have alot of strange stuff happen here that seems to indicate there is in fact an "afterlife" if you want to call it that.... Ghosts, near death experiences, clairvoyance, past life regression along with very interesting quantum physic's theories......

Its definitlely not an open and shut case!

reply to post by kcfusion

Ghosts, near death experiences, clairvoyance, past life regression along with very interesting quantum physic's theories......

I hate to dismiss them all with broad sweeping generalizations, but there's typically far more conventional and likely explanations which don't raise a tsunami of absurdities in their wake. It seems nobody ever wants to address the implications of their assertions. They're just interested in salvaging their concept of the soul, and to hell with the mess that's left afterward. Which is a good move on their part, honestly, because doing so would put them on the permanent defensive of apologetics generation to explain away the stream of new violations of reality they must create to try to substantiate their previous statements. However, this tactic of selective defense betrays (IMO) a greater motivation to preserve certain closely held beliefs, rather than an honest search for the truth as best as we can understand it.

Those who assume that science is a "faith" to be believed, rather than structured explanations to be understood, underestimate the significance of the concordance which ties everything together. I wonder if some people see the increasing specialization in science (Developmental Biology vs. Heliospheric Physics, for instance) as analogous to the fracturing of the various religions. (Pinker describes it as; "Knowing more and more about less and less until we know everything about nothing." ) And while there is vigorous academic debate between opposing explanations, science isn't compartmentalized the way belief systems are. If I make a statement about neuroscience which hinges on a point that violates a well established fact of anthropology, I would expect to be held accountable for my error. It's not like a Baptist debating their scripture with a Mormon, being corrected by a Sunni Muslim interpretation of the Qur'an.

And it's not that I have found any substance (no pun intended) to such claims to the supernatural, but that I acknowledge there are exceptions which do defy conventional explanations. Much like UFO's, I just don't find a lack of conventional explanation as positive evidence in X, Y, Z phenomena. I find as little evidence supporting the existence of stark "black & white" dichotomies as I do the supposed soul itself. I can no more substantiate my claim by falsifying yours, as you can substantiate your claim by falsifying mine. Besides, the claims and experiences can differ substantially from person to person, situation to situation. Give me a specific example or atypical experience, and I can work with that.

(**Note: Just because there is no evidence for the soul, doesn't necessarily mean there is not a soul. It just means there is no demonstrable or empirical evidence. If someone still wants to believe in the existence of the soul, that's fine. But any assertions made about the soul which necessitate interaction with - or an active denial of - physical reality, are thus required to be substantiated IN reality by evidence - and should remain falsifiable by reality.)


I will, however, flat out state that "Quantum Flapdoodle" is pure religion, and no serious physicist I've heard support such claims. At least, not in peer-review. Rather, it seems there is a general sense of disdain and contempt for promoters of such claims. From Victor Stenger to Murray Gell-Mann.




[edit on 21-1-2010 by Lasheic]

reply to post by Lasheic


So if 100% transformation from human to cyborg became reality would you feel the same? Would anything be "missing" ?

Reply to post by Lasheic

"Because people who I trust to know says it's impossible or explains it like this." which is included here and there through-out your argument. How is this any different than quoting a favored priest?


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reply to post by Signals

So if 100% transformation from human to cyborg became reality would you feel the same? Would anything be "missing" ?

I think you mean android. Cyborg is a mixture of biological and synthetic components, typically in regards to integration with the nervous system ala Kevin Warwick. And I'm pretty sure it's a matter of "When", not "If". The technology is already here, really, but it's still a few machine generations away from becoming attractive enough to consider losing a limb over. Right now they're being explored as prosthesis and medical use. For example, BCI technology to communicate with comatose patients and give paraplegics greater ability to interact with their environment either by controlling computerized homes via a network, or by controlling "mini-me" robots.



We're only a few machine generations away from these technologies matching biological proficiency. A few years after that, they will be enhancements - and they'll go commercial in a big way.

I'm excited about the future, and I fully plan to undergo cybernetic augmentation.

Would anything be missing? Well, I couldn't say right now could I? By the time augmentation becomes commercially viable, losing a limb for a cybernetic arm won't be a big deal if you end up not liking the arm. Tissue engineering is already creating new bladders, tracheae, ears, hearts, skin, teeth, fingers... regrowing a new arm won't be major obstacle.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

How is this any different than quoting a favored priest?

Um... well, first of all, what scientists say makes sense and I gain a functional understanding of reality which can be applied to my daily life. Not to mention a concordance of integrated applied sciences that I can see for myself. Because priests don't undergo peer-review processes which falsifies bad ideas, rather than entrenching morally charged dogma when challenged. I thought I already covered this.

Beyond being able to understand the world around me... hmm... How about this. Science produces technologies. Priests, Spiritualists, and Magical thinking only ever produces claims and apologetics.

reply to post by Lasheic


I really appreciate your contributions as I am a novice in these types of discussions, but I don't think you understand the question. Not body parts missing....When your thoughts, your hopes, your dreams are transfered to the new robotic "brain"...would your sense of awareness be the same? Would you feel like you feel now? (did your soul make the transition too if it existed at all) ?

Great questions and discussion. I personally believe in the existence of the soul but I would never make the mistake of confusing my belief with that which can be empirically demonstrated. Like the OP, however, I agree that there must be some sort of physical interface between the spiritual and physical realms of existence, although there is definitely no evidence for this, as it is entirely based on my faith in the existence of such things. In my opinion, even if the soul exists, I believe that intelligence (and therefore consciousness) exists separate from the soul, so I do not believe that a theoretical transfer of consciousness from a biological organism to an inorganic computer would also entail the transfer of the biological organisms "soul".

reply to post by Lasheic


Can you explain to me what the scientific reason is for ghosts and spirits? You see its easy to dismiss when it has never happened to you, however my family has a long history of direct and indirect interactions with spirits! The is 100% fact as as real as I sit here. What I am trying to say is science does not have all the answers on this subject, if any at all!

I HAVE SEEN GHOSTS
I have even had numerous instances of "strange things" happen.
I know for a FACT,on personal account that there is a spiritual realm.
I am not sure if there is a god in the mix but there is a spirit!

point in case: I was in my apartment about to go to sleep and in bed; belly up, i felt a hand grab me on my shoulder from behind as if i was standing straight up! i instinctively grabbed my gun that was under my pillow and looked around my room. (I"M FROM TEXAS) i had thought to myself that if in fact this spirit or ghost could touch me, than vaca*versa
in a real loud voice a said: IF YOU CAN TOUCH ME THAN MY BULLETS WILL RIP THROUGH YOU!