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Opposition fumes after Netanyahu invokes Holocaust in speech

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posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by cjcord
reply to post by Aggie Man
 


Right winged propaganda? I see. So...my growing up in Atlantic City NJ and my experiences with VERY angry African Americans who blamed their life circumstances on every white citizen there is..propaganda? When I lived in New Orleans during Katrina, when I heard large groups of people blaming lack of aid on "Slave masters"--- that's propaganda? So...because you happen to have lived a very nice life with very happy people around you, MY experiences are shoved off as propaganda? Wake up sweetie, there's a big world out there.

I have no political stance, i speak from my own experiences only. I refuse to be brushed off by someone crying politics.


Ok, so assuming I concede to your stance, then if the blacks want reparations in the form of monetary compensation, then what is it that the Jews want? I'm trying to learn here...as you said, it's a big world.




posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 01:06 PM
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reply to post by Aggie Man
 


Well, let ME go out on a limb here...

maybe they want their state back? Just a guess...



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by cjcord
reply to post by Aggie Man
 


Well, let ME go out on a limb here...

maybe they want their state back? Just a guess...


What is their state? I understand that Israel was formed as a Jewish state. But why did they get it in the first place? Seems to me that the Palestinians were there first, and had the State of Israel forced upon them, no?



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by Aggie Man
 


well...no.

The Jewish people have always been there. in fact...Jews are, well, kinda Palestinian. As in, it was Palestine before it was Isreal.
Now, are you speaking of Jewish people from Palestine, or Palestinians of other faiths?

Let me put it this way. Mecca is kinda a Muslim region, yeah? Let's say the entire area was cordoned off and given as a "Muslim state". But any Jews living there put up a fuss, and said "hey, my family's always lived here- it's a JEWISH state.

Well, if that area was proclaimed a Muslim state as a REPARATION, then the Muslims might have issue with the Jews trying to take their land. And years and years of killing, war, and general misery is not like to help their attitudes much.

Now, let's look at a map. There's this ENTIRE HUGE area called the middle east. It's mostly Muslim. Now there's this TINY LITTLE SLICE of land that Jews consider holy and flock to. Unacceptable, don;t care if they really are all the SAME people, it's not ok, this land must be Muslim too. Wut?

Add to this a small inconvenience of a Muslim holy site being built on top of what is pretty much the holiest site in Jewish history, which they are then told is off limits, and you may begin to see why Jews just might be a bit peeved. Lets build a synagogue on top of the Kaaba and see how that goes down.

Oh, and let's not forget the fact that lots of Jews were persecuted and murdered by an altogether different nationality, and now that is being touted as a hoax. A lot. And people are believing it.


Can you MAYBE start to understand a Jews' frame of mind when it comes to Israel and defending their history?



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by cjcord
Can you MAYBE start to understand a Jews' frame of mind when it comes to Israel and defending their history?


I certainly want to understand....and I am not a holocaust denier (not that you were accusing me of such). But I'm still confused...Do the Jewish people believe that Israel is their homeland based upon religious reasons?

I suppose it is difficult for me to understand, as different groups, races, ect. have migrated around the globe for 1000s of years. Wars have been waged and lands conquered. It has always happened. But the peopled that were involved in these events throughout history have adapted and assimilated.

To help me understand a bit more, do you believe that the Palestinians have a legitimate reason to be in conflict with Israel? Why or Why not?

I personally believe that it is not a one-way street here. Israel commits atrocities on Palestine and Palestine on Israel.



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by Aggie Man
 



I absolutely KNOW that the Jewish people view Israel as their homeland for religious reasons. The holy temples were built there,in Jerusalem, it is the land supposedly given to the Jews in the bible. (Not that I am a bible believer, I ascribe to no religion at all).

But I get the feeling you know this already.

I feel personally as though Israel can be a Jewish state with non-Jews living there. I have never understood, nor will I ever; why there is this endless fighting there. They could live peacefully, but not while the Palestinian Muslims insist that this is THEIR land more than the Jews.

Speaking as someone who was raised in a Jewish home, and went to Hebrew school, and who has eyes and ears of her own; I ascribe the fighting there to be religious based, mainly over a very small parcel of Jerusalem. It's the dome of the rock, no it's the holy temple...It's a tug of war over a religious place, which has ties to both religions. Again, were the Jews to build a synagogue atop the Kaaba in Mecca, it would be another all out war, if the Jews even got close enough to begin to build there--- which would never happen.


Despite politics, despite any other conspiracy or theories people may ascribe to- the fact is it is a sibling rivalry over a holy site. Neither will budge, so it will never end. The fact that it is a sibling rivalry- that Jews and Muslims are pretty much the same faith- is what makes it all so baffling to me. But then again, that's why I don't claim Judaism my religion, despite my ethnic heritage.



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 02:12 PM
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reply to post by cjcord
 


Ok, so the conflict there seems to be religious in nature. And the Jews want "reparations" in the form of getting their state back.

If the conflict is, in deed, over religious sites, then it really has nothing to do with a state, but more so over the control of religious sites. I think that point alone weakens their argument.

Am I being short sighted here? I'm simply trying to get to the root of the issue here.



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 02:18 PM
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reply to post by mattpryor
 


Should the murder of millions of your people be used as a political talking point, a hammer to beat an opposition party over the head with when they disagree with your tax policy?

Because that's what Nutty did here.

You can wring your hands and pull your hair and squawk about how terrible antisemites are all you want; All you're doing is distracting from the salient point that Netanyahu is using the millions of victims of Nazi genocide to argue for his tax policy in the Knesset. I'm not Jewish by a long shot, but I definitely see this as belittling the holocaust, trivializing it. Sort of like what Giuliani did with 9/11.



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by cjcord

Now, let's look at a map. There's this ENTIRE HUGE area called the middle east. It's mostly Muslim. Now there's this TINY LITTLE SLICE of land that Jews consider holy and flock to.


I love this argument. Let's totally ignore that this "TINY LITTLE SLICE" was already inhabited by people who were allowed no say in their own fate, as nation-states thousands of miles away decided who would get to live in that TINY LITTLE SLICE.

Much as what happened with the TINY LITTLE SLICE of the Americas that was the British colonies, the immigrants decided that the immigrants would get to stay, no matter the cost to the natives.


Add to this a small inconvenience of a Muslim holy site being built on top of what is pretty much the holiest site in Jewish history, which they are then told is off limits, and you may begin to see why Jews just might be a bit peeved. Lets build a synagogue on top of the Kaaba and see how that goes down.


Well, that might happen if the people of Mecca converted to Judaism. The Dome of the Rock was built by people who had converted to Islam, after all.


Oh, and let's not forget the fact that lots of Jews were persecuted and murdered by an altogether different nationality, and now that is being touted as a hoax. A lot. And people are believing it.


Can you MAYBE start to understand a Jews' frame of mind when it comes to Israel and defending their history?


Can you understand how stupid it is to expect one people (the Arabs) to pay for the crimes of another people (the Germans)? Man, I'm an Indian, well over 24 million of my people were wiped out. You don't see me demanding reparations of land from China or something, do you?



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 02:57 PM
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reply to post by Aggie Man
 




I happen to agree with everything you have said here. Which again, is why i never understood the fighting happening on Israel's side.

To answer the poster below--

It is the Jews belief that the land was theirs' first. Then they were dispersed, and want to reclaim it.

I do not feel anyone should be responsible for anyone else's mistakes. I) bring up the anger the Jews have for those who state the Holocaust was a hoax as a point on topic, why Netanyahu may have brought it up. Again.

I find it fairly amusing that when pressed, many "Arabs" use the same tactic. They like to claim it was all a conspiracy against them. Kind of egocentric IMO.

Now, before anyone starts acting silly- I do not personally put credence in the estimated 6 million Jews being killed. But do I believe the Holocaust happened as recorded, absolutely. I have no reason to believe my great grandparents lied to me about my history.

I was horrified when I learned in school about what the explorers and settlers did to the Native Americans here, and I am equally horrified whenever I learn about any other genocide. Please excuse me, I am human. If you chose to pick up a flag and fight for reparations done to your people, I would understand that completely. As I understand it here.


I feel empathy and a kinship with any group of people who are being attacked OR HAVE BEEN attacked. Being a minority gives one a unique view of certain things. Does that make it right? To some, but there is always an opposite side. I try to understand that too.

But I know that the Muslims have been trying to wipe out the Jews for a very very long time, and I know that they will jump on any reason to continue to do so. Is Israel's government going about this the right way? Absolutely not. But what would the right way be?


They both have legitimate claims to the land. So they either play nice together, or keep fighting. I don't see them playing nice anytime soon.



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 03:27 PM
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As you probably already know, the whole communist Bolshevik revolution in Russia was orchestrated by jews. The founding fathers of the Russian Communist Party; Lenin, Trotzky, Zinoviev, Lunarcharsky, Komanev and Sverdlov were all jews. Not to forget Karl Marx himself.

They all were a part of a Zionist movement and thus responsible for the murder of millions of people following the revolution.

What may not be commonly known is the Ukranian Holodomor. Holodomor = Holocaust.
Estimated death-toll: between 2.6 million an 10 million people.

On 23 October 2008 the European Parliament adopted a resolution that recognized the Holodomor as a crime against humanity.

On January 12, 2010 The court of appeals in Kiev opened hearings into the "fact of genocide-famine Holodomor" in Ukraine in 1932-33.

That, however doesn't sit well with the Jews/Zionists in Ukraine.
Jewish group objects to "Great Famine" case..

In the words of Aleksandr Feldman, leader of the Ukrainian Jewish Committee; it was "a farce" to press the case.
Feldman believes there is a danger that the “Holodomor Affair” materials are being used for political purposes. (like that has never been the case with the Holocaust..sic)

And why doesn't this sit well with the Jews? Because most of the names on the list of the organizers of the Holodomor are Jewish.

I'll let Rabbi Nachum Shifren of California have the last words in my post:

There is a second camp — a more sinister group, that has done more damage to the Jews and caused more murder and destruction than all of Israel's enemies combined. To this troika belong Jews and non-Jews, and our Jewish heritage has been irrevocably altered by this movement.

This second camp is about control of human beings. It holds a vision of a One World Order, together with Marx, Trotsky, and Lenin — an evil that, to date, has claimed nearly two hundred million souls.


I really don't think the Jews can sit on their high horse and hide behind the Holocaust any more. Genocide is genocide regardless of who commits it. I'm not saying the Jews are bad. I'm just saying they are not better than anyone else. It's just an observation...



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by cjcord
It is the Jews belief that the land was theirs' first. Then they were dispersed, and want to reclaim it.


Only one province of the Jewish territories of the Roman empire was dispersed. This was due to a misguided attempt to revolt against the Romans who, obviously, had little tolerance for such things. The vast majority of Roman jews stayed right where they were. As time passed a lot of them converted to Christianity, then to Islam. They're called the Palestinians these days.

It's a silly argument to begin with. Imagine if Mongolia decided it had a right to all those other Central Asian states? Or if Great Britain decided it wanted everything from Vermont to Georgia returned to it. Do you support my right to reclaim Choctaw land from the people of Alabama and Mississippi, using force if needed? I doubt you do (and I know I don't).

Modern Jews claiming they have a right to the land because ancient Jews lived there three thousand years ago is as goofy as modern Catholics claiming they have the same right towards Sweden.


I find it fairly amusing that when pressed, many "Arabs" use the same tactic. They like to claim it was all a conspiracy against them. Kind of egocentric IMO.


Ah yes, "The Plot." Of course, granted that the west is completely willing the massacre an entire Arab country because an American president needs good poll numbers, and yet is completely unwilling to put any teeth to its rare criticism of Israel (and is more often helping Israel screw the Palestinians) I can forgive them a bit of their conspiracy theorizing. 'Cause, really? The powers that be really are set against Muslims in the middle east.


Now, before anyone starts acting silly- I do not personally put credence in the estimated 6 million Jews being killed. But do I believe the Holocaust happened as recorded, absolutely. I have no reason to believe my great grandparents lied to me about my history.


Well, Im sure it wasn't a perfectly round figure, but I have no reason to doubt the gist of that number - nor do I have reason to doubt the six to seven million other people killed in the Holocaust.


I was horrified when I learned in school about what the explorers and settlers did to the Native Americans here, and I am equally horrified whenever I learn about any other genocide. Please excuse me, I am human. If you chose to pick up a flag and fight for reparations done to your people, I would understand that completely. As I understand it here.


I really doubt you would, if said reparations came as an inconveniance to you.


But I know that the Muslims have been trying to wipe out the Jews for a very very long time, and I know that they will jump on any reason to continue to do so. Is Israel's government going about this the right way? Absolutely not. But what would the right way be?


Then you have an extremely poor grasp of history. The Muslim / Jewish enmity is a product of the last century, and hate to tell you, CAN be traced right back to Jewish Nationalism - i.e, Zionism as expressed both by Jews and Christians.

What the right way would be is a return to the 1967 borders, noninterference in Palestinian and other Arab affairs and politics, and a halt to the warmongering against states such as Iraq and Iran. Personally I would demand a return to the 1947 partition plan borders, but even the crazy Palestinian groups have said they'd probably settle for 1967. From the Israeli perspective, they are holding those territories in violation of international law. Just because the UN refuses to upset the Israelis by enforcing law now doesn't mean that won't change in the future - it's just plain smart for Israel to go "Y'know, maybe we should go ahead and follow the rules of this organization we're part of..." Reparations for the victims of the Nakba would go a long way as well.

Of course, I'm of the personal belief that a one-state solution is the only truly viable way to go. But I have doubts that will happen, since neither side can seem to look past the short term.


They both have legitimate claims to the land. So they either play nice together, or keep fighting. I don't see them playing nice anytime soon.


The difference is, only one of them has a LEGAL claim to the land - or at least, to the land outside of the 1947 partition plan. If Israel can point to the UN resolutions to justify its right to exist, it needs to also accept that hte same resolutions set Israel's borders.

[edit on 20-1-2010 by TheWalkingFox]



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 03:34 PM
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reply to post by Koyaanisqatsi
 


Kinda like how official Israeli policy states that the Armenian genocide never happened, isn't it?

Sadly predictable.



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