Proof of Soul

reply to post by Lasheic


Causation must be caused by something, since this is an indefinite loop of "what caused it" or "who created God" the only possible answer is infinity. Infinity is the acting principle, the Causation as you call it. But if you have Causation, you have a law of Causation meaning Cause and Effect = Karma

The principle of Buddhism is transcending cause and effect by subjugating the desire which causes Causation in the first place.

To shut off that desire is to experience liberation. It is not a theory, it is an activity, known as Buddhist Meditation or Transcendental Meditation. Also called Samadhi.

I am talking about an action, not a theory.

Lasheic:

"It's a technical issue that needs to be underscored if you want to study metaphysics and Buddhism."

you said: truncate it

Okay, here it is. The technical issue of Metaphysics and Buddhism is the difference between Self, upper case, and self, lower case. Hereby it will be written Self and self. Self being the higher, self as the lower.

The self is the body, the complex body, which is created from the enviornment's causation principle and trapped into that world through the medium of embodiment, cell division, movement, and empirical existence.

The Self, on the other hand, is the principle that stands outside of this causative law. If you ask "what proof is there of it" the proof is found in meditation, when you experience your consciousness escape from your body, done through your own will, and experience a feeling that can only be described as joyousness and bliss.

When you study this Self in relationship to the self, you realize that it is your own thoughts and desires that leads you out of this realm of bliss and into the world we know. When you experience this true Self, you immediately wish to give up your desires for the temporal world, because they are filled with suffering and pain. Your suffering goes away whenever you experience and wish to unite with this transcendent Self.

I can never explain to you how, intellectually or logically, the Self exists, but I can tell you that experiencing it is the greatest thing in life. It's sanity in an insane world. It is as necessary and as beneficial as breathing, yet, for half my life I did not know about it. I never used my mind to escape from my mind, only to manipulate my mind, which was just manipulating myself.

So, getting back to the technical point, the self is the body, and I don't think I would disagree with anything you have to say regarding that, namely the Causation of different mechanisms producing a definable body, and even consciousness is the result of the evolution of intelligence and in my view language and linguistics. However, Reality is Reality regardless of the Causative principle, and so using our minds in the way they are shaped through language, we have to conclude that Reality is not caused by anything, otherwise that thing would be true Reality. So in order to define the terms properly, we must say that Absolute Reality is infinite, because that is the only way to deal with the infinite loop. This obviously can not be comprehended by a limited, finite mind.

Which is why meditation is necessary for Samadhi.

reply to post by Lasheic
Wow, thank you for the brilliant and highly educational reply. I will have to re-read most of it over some time for it all to sink in. The reason being that I know nothing scientifically about the brain, I've not studied and attained the education you so obviously have.

I instead did my own research via participation, first hand you might say. I cannot prove a single thing to you, and it is not my place to. I cannot explain in simple words that have no allegiance to concepts of how information comes to me prior to events. There is a process, I can tell you how it works for me, but we will not reach an understanding about it.

You are superior in education, granted. I am simply open and honest about my experiences of a most unusual life and the undestandings it has brought me to.

There is a richness of beauty and texture to this Universe far grander than most people realize.

Yes there is. In my living experience we actively participate in it rather than clinically study it. It is a living thing we are part of.

Proofs, all the educated want is proofs, something to nail down and say it is "This". No dream journals are kept by me, I am not into the ritual like so many. Yes, I could be some nutter going on about new-agey airy-fairy rubbish, but that would be highly disappointing although many times I have thought it would be preferable to living in many worlds at one time and being aware of the activities of such around us..

As for the Randi prize, why would anyone want to do it? Seriously, the money is not important to me, I'm just not a materialist. I don't have rampant ego so don't need the kudos or peer group pats on the back, all of that is worthless to me. My life is simple and I am content with it while I serve humanity with what I am able to offer. I've walked my own road and do not wish to be lumped in with all the weirdos, religionists, new-agers, chanellers.. you know what I mean. All those things are for followers, I instead explored consciousness from within it. I know that may be an offensive notion to you.

At no time have I ever sought the limelight for what I do, my work and the things I teach people are very personal to me. At no time have I ever wanted to be quantified, I simply never saw the reasoning for it. I studied psychology at Uni, it was horribly biased by the way, and I learned how easy it is to design tests or experiments to produce a bias outcome, which is when I understood that the people who want to do the quanitfying have absolutely no idea about how this stuff works. They know all the mechanical side of it, and the theoretical behaviour side but not the working of it. How is it possible for them to design an experiment that will show a positive outcome?

Then how do you account for the severing of the Corpus Callosum resulting in two distinct consciousnesses in isolation, while the patient is only perceptually aware of one? How are there two distinct wills acting independently and agnostic of each other - yet a seemingly single conscious observer who is unaware of either of them being separate?

Are you saying that a living human's brain was severed and resulted in their being two or more distinct personalities? Perhaps the trauma caused a fracturing as in multiple personality disorder? I don't have an answer for you based on this scenario.

By what mechanism does the soul interface with the brain? By the pattern of synaptic firing? No, that's well understood and mathematically defined. What exactly is the molecule or compound in the brain which interacts with the soul, so that it may empower the flesh? Can we then extract or sequester this agent outside of the brain so as to create "soul/reality" interfaces with technology? Why bother creating AI when a "Soul Co-Processor" can be installed in your PC? Do you see the problem I'm trying to get at?

Good questions, and I'm sure you might have some great answers yourself.

All I know is this; the thing we call Awareness is not a biological function. I do not think everything is as well ordered and pidgeon-holed as we humans like to believe it is. That is one of the issues I have with the very well educated is that according to them there is no other possibility. One thing that is victim to its heavy handed approach is our human heritage. We are losing as much of our inherent knowledge and abilities as we are gaining from our modern endeavours.

I'm sorry that I cannot provide what you demand from me. What I have done here is to share as openly and honestly as I could from my experiences without seeking reward or kudos. I made no claims, but I did share.

This does not fit your world view, and I do not wish to be offered new limitations on your behalf. Nowhere left to go with it other than to ask how does the operation of Remote Viewing Units in many countries military fit in with your world view?

I am going to make this brief because I have had this conversation many times before in this forum.

The brain causing consciousness is a modern day myth. It is a mime that has spread like wildfire. It is not a fact and nor is it logical.

There are two kinds of phenomena in the empirical world: quantitative and qualitative. Quantitative is not qualitative and qualitative is not quantitative. The experience of feeling is not the same as chemicals changing; the experience of thought is not the same as neurons firing across ones synapsis.

If they were the same they would not have opposite properties. In other words the quantitative and qualitative are separate things and belong to separate things; matter and spirit respectively.

The proof of the soul is ones conscious experience itself. It is self-evident, it does not need any more proof. You are not your body, this is the most basic truth you can learn in life.

[edit on 21-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
The experience of feeling is not the same as chemicals changing; the experience of thought is not the same as neurons firing across ones synapsis.

Is that a fact? Because I honestly thought that’s what gives rise to our intelligence? I am not bashing I am seriously confused, because I thought scientists have already found out thats, what gives rise to our senses, self awareness

reply to post by ancient_wisdom


Sorry, but I have to disagree with meditation being the only way of proving one has a soul. You could 'off' yourself, then if you are aware of having left your body and are now moving on, there's your proof. If you don't have a soul, you'll never know it anyway. The proof for me came about almost 40 years ago, when at the age of 19 years I 'died' during emergency surgery and was revived. I didn't want to come back, and begged to be allowed to stay, but was told I had to return as it just wasn't my time. I've read about others with similar experiences who've said they had a great spiritual uplifting as a result, but all it did for me was do away with my fear of death, and verify that certain things I'd seen as a child, were not just my imagination as the older folk would tell me.

When it comes to understanding human consciousness and the brain, science and technology is in it's infancy. Currently there's just no way to currently detect a soul, if there even is one. There still isn't any hard evidence that proves that consciousness resides inside the brain, even though some people would have you believe otherwise. They are simply theories and that's all they are. It still hasn't been proven either way.

When it comes to Astral Projection, OBE's & NDE's through meditation etc, I for one am not going to wait for science to play catch up. When exploring the existence of other realities there's no better truth than first hand experience and meditating is currently the only way to prove to yourself that we are so much more than just physical beings.

www.west.net...
www.quantumconsciousness.org...
www.susanblackmore.co.uk...


[edit on 21-1-2010 by kindred]