Western Civilizations use blood and war to spread their ideas and religion... WHY?!?!?

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posted on May, 26 2004 @ 01:02 PM
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I speak as a Hindu about the differences between the Western approach to spreading religion and the Indian approach...

The debt which the world owes to India is immense. Civilizations have arisen in other parts of the world. In ancient and modern times, wonderful ideas have been carried forward from one race to an other.... But mark you, my friends, it has been always with the blast of war trumpets and with the march of embattled cohorts. Each idea had to be soaked,in a deluge of blood.... Each word of power had to be followed by the groans of millions, by the wails of orphans, by the tears, of widows. This, in the main, other nations have taught, but India for thousands of years peacefully existed. Here activity prevailed when even Greece did not exist....Even earlier, when history has no record, and tradition dares not peer into the gloom of that intense past, even from then until now, ideas after ideas have marched out from her, but every word has been spoken with a blessing behind it and peace before it. We, of all nations in the world, have never been a conquering race, and that blessing is on our head, and therefore we live....

Political greatness or military power is never the mission of our race (Hindus); it never was and, mark my words, it never will be. But there has been the other mission given to us, which is to conserve, to preserve, to accumulate as it were into a dynamo, all the spiritual energy of the race, and that concentrated energy is to pour forth in a deluge on the world whenever circumstances are propitious. Let the Persian or the Greek, the Roman, the Arab, or the Englishman march his battalions, conquer the world, and link the different nations together, and the philosophy and spirituality of India is ever ready to flow along the new-made channels into the veins of the nations of the world. The Hindu's calm brain must pour out its own quota to give to the sum total of human progress. India's gift to world is the light spiritual




posted on May, 26 2004 @ 01:28 PM
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As a Sikh, I condem your race for barging in on our sacred Golden Temple and for cowering in the eyes of Moghul invaders.

I could go on my freind, I see no point to this thread.

Deep



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 01:47 PM
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I find your retort abitrary and capricious.


for cowering in the eyes of Moghul invaders


This is my point -- while other civilzations have their strength in warfare and powerful economies; India's strength is its religion.

Those who truly understand Vedanta realize that it acknowledges and accepts all other religions. To think that Vedantism is against Sikhism is a misunderstanding that should be addressed.


cma

posted on May, 26 2004 @ 01:52 PM
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Western civilizations use the origional message's explained tactics because that is how their culture, government, and history made it that way. Quite sad, I must say.



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 02:39 PM
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dont you realise the west has been using violence to survive other violent nations and rather have killed themselves than surrender to anyone, of course its not quite that way now but the west isnt threatened the same anymore, there have been more violent cultures than the west so dont say the west was only violent or the most violent.


cma

posted on May, 26 2004 @ 02:41 PM
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OMG, you crack me up. That is a typical brainwashed american's steriotype. Priceless! I must dissagree with 6/7 of your points.



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 02:51 PM
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In verse after verse of the Bible we are told to "act in the image of god", and then chapter after chapter it describes God as a mass murdering tryant.

I think the "Key" to understanding Western Civilization lies in that statement.


There is no friend anywhere - Lao Tse



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 02:52 PM
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Originally posted by cma
OMG, you crack me up. That is a typical brainwashed american's steriotype. Priceless! I must dissagree with 6/7 of your points.


want me to name every violent culture and compare? you'll see theres more non-western aggressive nations who constantly attacked western nations, it was a cycle after awhile, im only telling the reality of the western world back then, if we were peaceful we wouldve been killed off, we survived because the use of violence, you forget the west was not developed as soon as india, babylon, etc.



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 02:53 PM
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Yes, again, the West is the source of all evil in the world!

We should have a caste system, where, if you are born into poverty, that's where you'll stay. We should be able to throw our unwanted babies into the street sewers. Our women should be subjugated. We should have sweat shops, filled with child laborers making a pittance.

Yes, the Hindu's love their country. So much so, that they are flocking to the US and Europe in search of work. Another group that hates the West, but loves the money.

(and to think, I wanted to eventually go there on a tour. I would love to see the Taj Mahal, and Iron Pillars, and to see Calcutta and New Delhi. I would love to meet the people and experience their way's of life, learn about the myriad of god's they have, eat their exotic foods, and undertand them better. Maybe I should rethink it.....


cma

posted on May, 26 2004 @ 02:54 PM
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I was talking about the USA-MODERN DAY, sorry if there was confusion.



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 02:57 PM
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Originally posted by cma
I was talking about the USA-MODERN DAY, sorry if there was confusion.


you shouldve said that...i had no idea you meant that.



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 03:19 PM
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Ahem.... Just look at this timeline...

home1.gte.net...
home1.gte.net...



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 03:22 PM
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We should have a caste system, where, if you are born into poverty, that's where you'll stay. We should be able to throw our unwanted babies into the street sewers. Our women should be subjugated. We should have sweat shops, filled with child laborers making a pittance.



Very good point my freind.

The caste system has destroyed our mighty country, and who is to blame for this, the Sikhs who abolished it, the buddhists who condem it, or maybe the Jains, either way, each of these left the original Hindu doctrine for a very good reason.

India is not a Hindu nation.

Deep

[Edited on 26-5-2004 by ZeroDeep]



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 03:23 PM
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We should have a caste system, where, if you are born into poverty, that's where you'll stay. We should be able to throw our unwanted babies into the street sewers. Our women should be subjugated. We should have sweat shops, filled with child laborers making a pittance.


1) The U.S. & Western World DOES have a caste system -- it is thoroughly engrained in society. They are the "haves" and the "have-nots." They have the wealthy/privileged class (who have almost all of the power); the middle-class (who does all the work); and the poor/poverty-stricken masses (who are there to scare the Sh*t out of the middle-class... too make them keep working at their J-O-B's.)

2) The murder rate in the U.S. is still amongst the highest in the world.

3) In ancient India, women occupied a very important position, in fact a superior position to, men. It is a culture whose only words for strength and power are feminine -"Shakti'' means "power'' and "strength.'' All male power comes from the feminine.

Recent incidents of sati and rash of "dowry murders" have made headlines not only in India, but all around the world, and have focused attention to women's issues in India. In the wake of the discussion it emerged that Indian women's problems are not only problems of Hindu women or problems caused by traditional Hinduism. Media paints India as a dangerous place. But if statistics can be trusted, a study by Hindus Against the Abuse of Women presented at the Second International Conference on Bride Burning and Dowry Deaths in India puts USA in the lead of familial femicide. It says USA murders of women committed by "intimate relations" are 15 per year per million population. The rate in Pakistan is 6.44 per million. India's is 6.25 per million. The study says excessive need for control and greed may be the underlying causes, not cultural or religious factors. India recently passed a law making husbands and in-laws guilty until proven otherwise if a bride dies within the first year of marriage. Since then, the rate of women killed by intimate relations dropped by more than 50%. Tiny Switzerland is home to a mere 7.2 million people. It is extremely rich, modern, industrialised and democratic with excellent health care and a 100 per cent literacy rate. So why has this proud nation with its fiercely democratic traditions failed to curb violence against women? Which is why the statistics for wife beating are about the same in the developed and the developing world. It is fallacious to think that there is a link between democracy, prosperity, education levels and domestic violence," counters Elizabeth Rod-Grang, a Swiss sociologist and activist with Solidarit Femme, a women's rights group that runs shelters for battered women in Geneva. According to the report, one in every three women suffers violence in her lifetime. The statistics in Europe are as appalling as anywhere else. In France, six women die each month at the hands of men who profess to love them. In Britain, one woman is killed by a partner every three days, one woman in four experiences domestic violence and attacks on partners account for a quarter of all violent crime. Despite media campaigns and shocking statistics, domestic violence continues to be one of Europe's most under-reported crimes.

4) I'm forgetting.... who established all of those sweatshops in Asia? Wasn't is all of those major U.S. Corporations?


Yes, the Hindu's love their country. So much so, that they are flocking to the US and Europe in search of work. Another group that hates the West, but loves the money.


Just because people go to another country in search of opportunity (...and you must understand that India is SOOOOO competitive that opportunities are extremely limited to the few top scoring students) doesn't mean that they dislike their own country. Most of the time, the people leaving India going to America are the best and brightest of the Indians who are literally recruited by Americans because they are the best and most qualified in the world.

Understand that Hindus and Indians don't dislike the west; rather they dislike the greedy, gluttonous , materialistic-nature, almost soul-less culture that America bases on the almighty $.


[Edited on 5/26/2004 by DivineSoma]



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 03:26 PM
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3) In ancient India, women occupied a very important position, in fact a superior position to, men. It is a culture whose only words for strength and power are feminine -"Shakti'' means "power'' and "strength.'' All male power comes from the feminine.


Exactly, ancient India, post-modern and modern India is very different in regards to the treatment of women, homosexuals all minorities.

You might want to include these studies aswell, some are very picky on this site.

And what of honour killings ?

Deep

[Edited on 26-5-2004 by ZeroDeep]


cma

posted on May, 26 2004 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by DivineSoma

We should have a caste system, where, if you are born into poverty, that's where you'll stay. We should be able to throw our unwanted babies into the street sewers. Our women should be subjugated. We should have sweat shops, filled with child laborers making a pittance.


1) The U.S. & Western World DOES have a caste system -- it is thoroughly engrained in society. They are the "haves" and the "have-nots." They have the wealthy/privileged class (who have almost all of the power); the middle-class (who does all the work); and the poor/poverty-stricken masses (who are there to scare the Sh*t out of the middle-class... too make them keep working at their J-O-B's.)

2) The murder rate in the U.S. is still amongst the highest in the world.

the Abuse of Women presented at the Second International Conference on Bride Burning and Dowry Deaths in India puts USA in the lead of familial femicide. It says USA murders of women committed by "intimate relations" are 15 per year per million population. The rate in Pakistan is 6.44 per million. India's is 6.25 per million. The study says excessive need for control and greed may be the underlying causes, not cultural or religious factors. India recently passed a law making husbands and in-laws guilty until proven otherwise if a bride dies within the first year of marriage. Since then, the rate of women killed by intimate relations dropped by more than 50%. Tiny Switzerland is home to a mere 7.2 million people. It is extremely rich, modern, industrialised and democratic with excellent health care and a 100 per cent literacy rate. So why has this proud nation with its fiercely democratic traditions failed to curb violence against women? Which is why the statistics for wife beating are about the same in the developed and the developing world. It is fallacious to think that there is a link between democracy, prosperity, education levels and domestic violence," counters Elizabeth Rod-Grang, a Swiss sociologist and activist with Solidarit Femme, a women's rights group that runs shelters for battered women in Geneva. According to the report, one in every three women suffers violence in her lifetime. The statistics in Europe are as appalling as anywhere else. In France, six women die each month at the hands of men who profess to love them. In Britain, one woman is killed by a partner every three days, one woman in four experiences domestic violence and attacks on partners account for a quarter of all violent crime. Despite media campaigns and shocking statistics, domestic violence continues to be one of Europe's most under-reported crimes.

4) I'm forgetting.... who established all of those sweatshops in Asia? Wasn't is all of those major U.S. Corporations?


Yes, the Hindu's love their country. So much so, that they are flocking to the US and Europe in search of work. Another group that hates the West, but loves the money.


Just because people go to another country in search of opportunity (...and you must understand that India is SOOOOO competitive that opportunities are extremely limited to the few top scoring students) doesn't mean that they dislike their own country. Most of the time, the people leaving India going to America are the best and brightest of the Indians who are literally recruited by Americans because they are the best and most qualified in the world.

Understand that Hindus and Indians don't dislike the west; rather they dislike the greedy, gluttonous , materialistic-nature, almost soul-less culture that America bases on the almighty $.


[Edited on 5/26/2004 by DivineSoma]



I totally agree, the US is MUCH worse than the average american's steriotype on islam and hinduism.



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 03:42 PM
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Though it is my motherland in essence, I have still had much hatred for its ways of conduct.

For a country that can not come to accord with its own morals and values, who are you to judge anothers?

A good site on the battle to empower women in India, do hope that all foster the information provided.

www.indianchild.com...




From time immemorial, the women in this land of ours were treated as a sort of thing. Her placing in the society was not at par with other human being. She has no rights. She cannot move nor do anything at her will. In Hindu Shastras, she has been branded just like animals. From the verses of Ramayan as written by Mr. Tulsi Das, " Dhol, ganwar, shudra, pashu, naari- Ye sab tadan ke adhikari," one may easily draw inferences as to what status has been granted to our mothers. Similarly, we can understand that of Dropadi of Mahabharata was reduced to the status of a bitch, as she was the wife of five husbands (Pandwas). She was not only, the wife of five husbands; she put at stake in gambling by none else than the so called Dharmraj Yudhishthar! In 'Manusmrati' the ancient Hindu Code-book, the status granted to women is quite visible and she was put to the lowest rug of humanity as she was treated at par with the animals and slave by the proprietors of Hindu Dharma. Such was the placement earmarked to our mothers, sisters and even great grand mothers that the heads of humanity bend upon down with shame


Deep



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 03:57 PM
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The thread starter might want to actually study Indian history and not just pick bits that suit his/her argument.
India has been absolutely no different from any other nation in the way that religion has shaped it's society through violence. Don't forget that India was a land of tribes, just like many others, and that those tribes were at each others throats for millenia.

Sure Hinduism sounds fine and dandy. But then so does Islam and Christianity. It's the people who put it into practice who always screw it up.

Buddhism, I can get along with. At least they're not trying to kill anyone in the name of a god.



posted on May, 27 2004 @ 10:40 AM
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The thread starter might want to actually study Indian history and not just pick bits that suit his/her argument.
India has been absolutely no different from any other nation in the way that religion has shaped it's society through violence. Don't forget that India was a land of tribes, just like many others, and that those tribes were at each others throats for millenia.


Those of you who think that the Hindus have been always confined within the four walls of their country through all ages, are entirely mistaken; you have not studied the old books, you have not studied the history of the race aright if you think so. Each nation must give in order to live. When you give life, you will have life; when you receive, you must pay for it by giving to all others; and that we have been living for so many thousands of years is a fact that stares us in the face, and the solution that remains is that we have been always giving to the outside world, whatever the ignorant may think. But the gift of India is the gift of religion and philosophy, and wisdom and spirituality. And religion does not want cohorts to march before its path and clear its way. Wisdom and philosophy do not want to be carried on floods of blood. Wisdom and philosophy do not march upon bleeding human bodies, do not march with violence but come on the wings of peace and love, and that has always been so. Therefore we had to give. A young lady in London once asked, "What have you Hindus done? You have never even conquered a single nation." That is true from the point of view of the Englishman, the brave, the heroic, the Kshatriya conquest is the greatest glory that one man can have over another. That is true from his point of view, but from ours it is quite the opposite. If I ask myself what has been the cause of India's greatness, I answer, because we have never conquered. That is our glory. You are hearing every day, and sometimes, I am sorry to say, from men who ought to know better, denunciations of our religion, because it is not at all a conquering religion. To my mind that is the argument why our religion is truer than any other religion, because it never conquered, because it never shed blood, because its mouth always shed on all, words of blessing, of peace, words of love and sympathy. It is here and here alone that the ideals of toleration were first preached. And it is here and here alone that toleration and sympathy have become practical it is theoretical in every other country, it is here and here alone, that the Hindu builds mosques for the Mohammedans and churches for the Christians.

So, you see, our message has gone out to the world many a time, but slowly, silently, unperceived. It is on a par with everything in India. The one characteristic of Indian thought is its silence, its calmness. At the same time the tremendous power that is behind it is never expressed by violence. It is always the silent mesmerism of Indian thought. If a foreigner takes up our literature to study, at first it is disgusting to him; there is not the same stir, perhaps, the same amount of go that rouses him instantly. Compare the tragedies of Europe with our tragedies. The one is full of action, that rouses you for the moment, but when it is over there comes the reaction, and everything is gone, washed off as it were from your brains. Indian tragedies are like the mesmerist's power, quiet, silent, but as you go on studying them they fascinate you; you cannot move; you are bound; and whoever has dared to touch our literature has felt the bondage, and is there bound for ever. Like the gentle dew that falls unseen and unheard, and yet brings into blossom the fairest of roses, has been the contribution of India to the thought of the world. Silent, unperceived, yet omnipotent in its effect, it has revolutionised the thought of the world, yet nobody knows when it did so. It was once remarked to me, "How difficult it is to ascertain the name of any writer in India", to which I replied, "That is the Indian idea." Indian writers are not like modern writers who steal ninety per cent ot their ideas from other authors, while only ten per cent is their own, and they take care to write a preface in which they say, "For these ideas I am responsible". Those great master minds producing momentous results in the hearts of mankind were content to write their books without even putting their names, and to die quietly, leaving the books to posterity. Who knows the writers of our philosophy, who knows the writers of our Purnas? They all pass under the generic name of Vysa, and Kapila, and so on. They have been true children of Shri Krishna. They have been true followers of the Gita; they practically carried out the great mandate, "To work you have the right, but not to the fruits thereof."


Sure Hinduism sounds fine and dandy. But then so does Islam and Christianity. It's the people who put it into practice who always screw it up.


There have been great conquering races in the world. We also have been great conquerors. The story of our conquest has been described by that noble Emperor of India, Asoka, as the conquest of religion and of spirituality. Once more the world must be conquered by India. This is the dream of my life, and I wish that each one of you who hear me today will have the same dream in your minds, and stop not till you have realised the dream. They will tell you every day that we had better look to our own homes first and then go to work outside. But I will tell you in plain language that you work best when you work for others. The best work that you ever did for yourselves was when you worked for others, trying to disseminate your ideas in foreign languages beyond the seas, and this very meeting is proof how the attempt to enlighten other countries with your thoughts is helping your own country. This is the great ideal before us, and every one must be ready for it the Conquest of the whole world by India nothing less than that, and we must all get ready for it, strain every nerve for it. Let foreigners come and flood the land with their armies, never mind. Up, India, and conquer the world with your spirituality! Ay, as has been declared on this soil first, love must conquer hatred, hatred cannot conquer itself. Materialism and all its miseries can never be conquered by materialism. Armies when they attempt to conquer armies only multiply and make brutes of humanity. Spirituality must conquer the West. Slowly they are finding out that what they want is spirituality to preserve them as nations. They are waiting for it, they are eager for it. Where is the supply to come from? Where are the men ready to go out to every country in the world with the messages of the great sages of India? Where are the men who are ready to sacrifice everything, so that this message shall reach every corner of the world? Such heroic spurs are wanted to help the spread of truth. Such heroic workers are wanted to go abroad and help to disseminate the great truths of the Vedanta. The world wants it; without it the world will be destroyed. The whole of the Western world is on a volcano which may burst tomorrow, go to pieces tomorrow. They have searched every corner of the world and have found no respite. They have drunk deep of the cup of pleasure and found it vanity. Now is the time to work so that India's spiritual ideas may penetrate deep into the West. We must go out, we must conquer the world through our spirituality and philosophy. There is no other alternative, we must do it or die. The only condition of national life, of awakened and vigorous national life, is the conquest of the world by Indian thought.

At the same time we must not forget that what I mean by the conquest of the world by spiritual thought is the sending out of the life-giving principles, not the hundreds of superstitions that we have been hugging to our breasts for centuries. These have to be weeded out even on this soil, and thrown aside, so that they may die for ever. These are the causes of the degradation of the race and will lead to softening of the brain. That brain which cannot think high and noble thoughts, which has lost all power of originality, which has lost all vigour, that brain which is always poisoning itself with all sorts of little superstitions passing under the name of religion, we must beware of. In our sight, here in India, there are several dangers. Of these, the two, Scylla and Charybdis, rank materialism and its opposite arrant superstition, must be avoided. There is the man today who after drinking the cup of Western wisdom, thinks that he knows everything. He laughs at the ancient sages. All Hindu thought to him is arrant trash philosophy mere child's prattle, and religion the superstition of fools. On the other hand, there is the man educated, but a sort of monomaniac, who runs to the other extreme and wants to explain the omen of this and that. He has philosophical and metaphysical, and Lord knows what other puerile explanations for every superstition that belongs to his peculiar race, or his peculiar gods, or his peculiar village. Every little village superstition is to him a mandate of the Vedas, and upon the carrying out of it, according to him, depends the national life. You must beware of this. I would rather see every one of you rank atheists than superstitious fools, for the atheist is alive and you can make something out of him. But if superstition enters, the brain is gone, the brain is softening, degradation has seized upon the life. Avoid these two. Brave, bold men, these are what we want. What we want is vigour in the blood, strength in the nerves, iron muscles and nerves of steel, not softening namby-pamby ideas. Avoid all these. Avoid all mystery. There is no mystery in religion. Is there any mystery in the Vedanta, or in the Vedas, or in the Samhits, or in the Puranas? What secret societies did the sages of yore establish to preach their religion? What sleight-of-hand tricks are there recorded as used by them to bring their grand truths to humanity? Mystery mongering and superstition are always signs of weakness. These are always signs of degradation and of death. Therefore beware of them; be strong, and stand on your own feet. Great things are there, most marvellous things. We may call them supernatural things so far as our ideas of nature go, but not one of these things is a mystery.


Buddhism, I can get along with. At least they're not trying to kill anyone in the name of a god.


Thoughts like merchandise can only run through channels made by somebody. Roads have to be made before even thought can travel from one place to another, and whenever in the history of the world a great conquering nation has arisen, linking the different parts of the world together, then has poured through these channels the thought of India and thus entered into the veins of every race. Before even the Buddhists were born, there are evidences accumulating every day that Indian thought penetrated the world. Before Buddhism, Vedanta had penetrated into China, into Persia, and the Islands of the Eastern Archipelago. Again when the mighty mind of the Greek had linked the different parts of the Eastern world together there came Indian thought; and Christianity with all its boasted civilisation is but a collection of little bits of Indian thought. Ours is the religion of which Buddhism with all its greatness is a rebel child, and of which Christianity is a very patchy imitation.



posted on May, 27 2004 @ 11:07 AM
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Well my fellow Indian freind, to a country that has 300 million under the poverty line, I say hats off !

For a religion that has allowed for the burning of innocent wives and the molesting of poverished peoples, I would not raise my head ever so high.
Who was it my freind that introduced the caste system and still allows for it to bar influence even in this modern world?

I see no accomplishments from India other than spiritual, Man made religion, religion does not make man. Man chose to conquer.....

Deep





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