BATF Notice Bans Private Gun Sales In Texas gun show!!!!

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posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 11:42 PM
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Guns have had the requirement of registration for a long time in America. So what's new?


Really, Not in most of America. Background check yes, registration no.




posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 11:44 PM
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A more honest and truthful title to the thread would be:

Texas authorities asks gun show vendors to obey the law...


But then again, that wouldn't get people to read the OP as much, would it?



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 11:53 PM
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Originally posted by infolurker
Guns have had the requirement of registration for a long time in America. So what's new?


Really, Not in most of America. Background check yes, registration no.


The Federal Firearm License is required for people that want to SELL firearms. This notice is for people who are SELLING weapons, not who are buying them.

The BATF requires gun vendors to be licensed with the Federal government so they know who is selling them.

Like I said... MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING... move along people, nothing to see here...



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 08:34 AM
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reply to post by downisreallyup
 


Giving you a break since you're apparently from NZ. From the official BATF website:
Law for unlicensed (No FFL) sellers

Edit for correctness

[edit on 19-1-2010 by 1SawSomeThings]



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 09:19 AM
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Thank you BATF for giving Debra Medina more votes!


The way she owned the other two candidates the other night . . . wow. She is on a roll.


If you do not know her:

Debra Medina



Edit: Austin is somewhat of a red-headed step chi;d in Texas, though . . . just sayin'





[edit on 1/19/2010 by Lemon.Fresh]



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 09:29 AM
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reply to post by downisreallyup
 


wow u gotta love lazy ass people man. hay before u leave another igorant comment hows about u watch the YUT videos have posted hua? they have the show promoter talking about how people where selling guns privately and how the BATFE arrested them(even tho they did nothing wrong)

"I thought people on ATS were smarter than what I am"
I THOUGHT that commenter's would be smart enough to read/ listen to the WHOLE THREAD before leaving stupid ass comments.

so in the future read the WHOLE thread and watch the videos. it makes you look less dumb.



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 09:30 AM
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reply to post by downisreallyup
 


well if u took the time to watch the video u would know that the BATFE started arresting people where selling guns privately



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 09:36 AM
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here s part 6 of the inter vew
www.youtube.com...



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by 1SawSomeThings
reply to post by downisreallyup
 


Giving you a break since you're apparently from NZ. From the official BATF website:
Law for unlicensed (No FFL) sellers

Edit for correctness

[edit on 19-1-2010 by 1SawSomeThings]


Giving you a break because you apparently didn't read the info at that site very well. That was referring to an "unlicensed buyer", where the issue being addressed here in this post is "unlicensed sellers." That piece of paper was asking that all sellers, use a licensed (with FFL) seller to transfer ownership of the gun.

READ IT CAREFULLY, paying attention to each work...



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 02:43 PM
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? they have the show promoter talking about how people where selling guns privately and how the BATFE arrested them(even tho they did nothing wrong


And do you have any evidence that that's true?

Or any evidence that those flyers have any kind of 'official' status?

...and the one about listing guns on income tax forms is a hoax too -

www.snopes.com...



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 06:30 PM
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reply to post by downisreallyup
 


OK I'll give you one more break, since you guys may speak a little different version of "the Queen's" English down there. I'll put the relevant sections in bold. A "person" is talking about "unlicensed person" (meaning no FFL license) in the question line. You must be thinking of licensed as in "can own a firearm" like where you live. Here, one "person" can sell to another "person" from the same state.
From the BATF website:



Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]


Again here's the link:
BATF Website regarding unlicensed (no FFL) transfer

And if you wan't to become "more" of an expert on U.S. gun laws:
National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action

Given you're not from here (as I assume from your profile), calm down and don't derail the thread when you don't understand our laws.
Edit to add:
You do know we're talking about the United States of America, Texas, right?


[edit on 19-1-2010 by 1SawSomeThings]



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 06:50 PM
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reply to post by Wembley
 


ya i do actueally go read the thread (i updated it) it has links to the video of hi being inter viewed. stop being so lazy and research god damn.



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 09:39 PM
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Originally posted by 1SawSomeThings
reply to post by downisreallyup
 


OK I'll give you one more break, since you guys may speak a little different version of "the Queen's" English down there. I'll put the relevant sections in bold. A "person" is talking about "unlicensed person" (meaning no FFL license) in the question line. You must be thinking of licensed as in "can own a firearm" like where you live. Here, one "person" can sell to another "person" from the same state.
From the BATF website:



Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]


Again here's the link:
BATF Website regarding unlicensed (no FFL) transfer

And if you wan't to become "more" of an expert on U.S. gun laws:
National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action

Given you're not from here (as I assume from your profile), calm down and don't derail the thread when you don't understand our laws.
Edit to add:
You do know we're talking about the United States of America, Texas, right?


[edit on 19-1-2010 by 1SawSomeThings]


Actually, I'm well-versed in U.S. law, but I will not tell you why that is. I wouldn't make the assumption that just because a person resides in another country that they were born or raised there. That would be quite an erroneous assumption indeed.

Assuming that the flyer was indeed legitimate (which is an assumption), it is clearly ONLY referring to "anyone selling firearms at this location." The phrase "at this location" is what is key, because that location was a gun show, and people selling guns there were considered to be vendors.

Here are the actual requirements of the FFL:


Acquiring from dealers
Provided that federal law and the laws of both the dealer's and purchaser's states and localities are complied with:
* An individual 21 years of age or older may acquire a handgun from a dealer federally licensed to sell firearms in the individual's state of residence[2].
* An individual 18 years of age or older may purchase a rifle or shotgun from a federally licensed dealer in any state. However, the applicant may not purchase a pistol gripped long gun that does not have a shoulder stock until he or she is 21 years of age.
* It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer a firearm unless the federal firearms licensee receives notice of approval from a prescribed source approving the transfer.
* Sale of a firearm by a federally licensed dealer must be documented by a federal form 4473, which identifies and includes other information about the purchaser, and records the make, model, and serial number of the firearm. Sales to an individual of multiple handguns within a five-day period require dealer notification to the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. Violations of dealer record keeping requirements are punishable by a penalty of up to $1000 and one year's imprisonment.
* An individual holding a Curio and Relics License (officially a Type 03 Federal Firearms License (FFL); also called a C&R) may directly purchase firearms that are 50 or more years old from anyone AND any firearm officially recognized by the BATFE as a Curio and Relic (C&R). [edit] Sales between individuals
* Federal law allows the sale of a long gun or a handgun between private parties of the same state as long as the purchaser is 18 years of age. An individual who does not possess a federal firearms license may not sell a modern firearm to a resident of another state without first transferring the firearm to a dealer in the purchaser's state.[3] Firearms received by bequest or intestate succession are exempt from those sections of the law which forbid the transfer, sale, delivery or transportation of firearms into a state other than the transferor's state of residence.[3] Likewise, antique firearms are exempt from these sections of the law in most states. (Antique firearms are defined as those manufactured pre-1899 by US federal law, or modern replicas thereof that do not use cartridges. State law definitions on antique firearms vary considerably from state to state.)

Source

So, it is clear that the flyer only applies to those people to whom it applies. As the law says, gun sales can occur between two private parties from the same state without any need for an FFL or going through someone with an FFL.

But since that was a public gun sale event, the sponsors of the show decided that there really aren't any private parties involved. It was a public event, so under that setting they requested that FFL vendors be used, or if the vendor doesn't have an FFL, he/she must go through someone who does.

Also, because they don't know who at the gun show is actually from another state, they requested that everyone go through someone with an FFL. This was clearly a request by the people putting on the show, as they were making an attempt to REQUEST people comply with the law. There were no threats for violation, and no absolute wording demanding compliance. If that had been an official legal notice, it would have been worded completely differently, and it would have stated the law/ordinance citation under which the rule was being made. Plus, there would have been an enforcement of the rules, with citations being given out.

Now, all that being said, the people putting on the show had obviously decided to ask the public to cooperate with BATF's attempt at plugging the "Gun Show Loophole" as it is called. The "Gun Show Loophole Closing Act of 2009" is still pending in the congress, so they are obviously trying to get voluntary compliance in this regard. There is nothing wrong with asking people to comply. If the people don't want to, then they can simply not comply. I would think, however, that the sponsors of the gun show are free to set whatever rules they want to, since they are the ones who rented the venue.

So, on the contrary, I don't need your breaks. I am an expert in AMERICAN English, and most likely more familiar with American law than most on here. Let's just say that I have many years of studying it intently.


[edit on 19-1-2010 by downisreallyup]



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 10:04 PM
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reply to post by 1SawSomeThings
 


Here is a video of the largest gun show in the West (U.S.). Notice how the narrator confirms that all gun sales are carried out with the same gun ownership transfer process that is used in gun stores. In other words, these gun shows are not about private selling of guns between private individuals. They are commercial vendor events.




posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 01:42 AM
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It's quite obvious, regardless of what the guy on the video says, that the BATF is now asking the Police to join with them to ask the gun show sponsors to not allow private sales at gun shows any more. This is most likely because of this:

Article on Private Gun Sale Behavior at Gun Shows

Of course, if people will not voluntarily do what the law requires, the law gets tougher. Private sellers were not ensuring they didn't sell a gun to someone that is not entitled to own guns (criminals). And this was not a small percentage of them, but a substantial percentage. If large groups of people are going to break the law, then the law will tighten the noose.

So, you can still sell a gun privately, but not at a gun show, because private sellers are not following the federal law that requires them to ensure they don't sell a gun to a criminal or anyone else that it not allowed to have a gun. Sometimes a lot of people have to pay for the bad behavior of a few, and in this case, it isn't just a few.

You want to sell your guns privately? Take out an ad, or better yet, if you are at a gun show, give the prospective buyer your card, or just move 1000 feet away from the gun show facility. It's not that hard. You can extend your thanks to all the private gun sellers who thought it was okay to sell guns to criminals for this new tightening.



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 02:11 AM
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Is this some how supposed to prevent criminals from buying weapons from unlicesened sellers?

I saw a video of a man who walked into a pawn shop, asked the clerk if he could see a certain caliber revolver, the man then proceeded to reach into his pocket, and load the weapon and robbed the place...

anyway, i may be in the market for a fire arm in the very near future hear in Austin, can anyone make any good recomendations on a seller or specific Venue?



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 02:29 PM
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Hmm interesting thread.

My two cents as a Texas resident and an avid shooter might get me grilled by both sides in here but oh well.

I suspect the Austin PD and BATFE are trying to limit whats known as "straw purchases" where somebody affiliated with a criminal organization buys weapons and ammunition for them. Straw buyers generally have clean criminal records, and sell otherwise legally purchased guns to drug dealers and such. Its become a little shop industry of sorts in the criminal underworld in Texas, as the proximity to the border, and the fact that Austin itself sits on the I-35 corridor, make Austin a likley spot for this to happen.

This is a serious federal crime and its next to impossible to prove unless they catch people buying illegal weapons, weapons presented as stolen, or they can trace the paperwork back to specific individuals once LE siezes a crime gun. Thats the whole deal here I think. They want all sales through an FFL so if any of the guns turn up in Mexico, they can figure out where they came from. If they have say 15 people each buying a handgun inside and then each selling them in the parking lot outside to one guy 10 minutes later, thats a little suspicious no?

Now is it specifically illegal for two individuals to engage in a firearms sale in the parking lot? Not in itself, but if its posted by the venue owner that private sales are prohibited on the property (including the parking lot), guess what: trespassing. Thats probably what the people in the video were arrested for.

For me a private citizen, if I wanted to sell a gun at this place in compliance with this policy, it would mean $25.00 or so I would have to kick to an FFL vendor for his time. Big whoop. He'd probably end up being nice about it and sell me something on the cheap for kicking him a little business.

As I said earlier, I'm an avid shooter. I'm an NRA member. I believe in the second amendment, and probably sink more money into my gun collection than I should. Everytime I see something like this, I wonder a little bit about whats motivating it. This isn't a blanket registration or confiscation scheme, the BATFE isn't jacking people up that show up and look around. This is an attempt by LE and the vendors to try and keep a few firearms out of bad guys hands. Less guns for bad guys means more freedom for me by not having to contend with worse kneejerk law making like the 1994 Assault weapons ban, which by the way was useless.

Is this a hoop to jump through? Yes. Is it the end of the world? No. Is there a sinister big brother motive going on? Doubt it. Is it really unreasonable? No.



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 03:42 PM
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reply to post by commdogg
 


You sir, just got a star from me! That was a very thoughtful, reasonable, logical, well-articulated post that certainly explains the particular case at hand, and shows that not everyone here has gone "conspiracy nuts."

What I mean by that is this: I do think that some conspiracies exist. I also think that Alex Jones provides some good information. That being said, however, I also think that many people in the "truth" movement suffer from "seeing a demon under every rock." Once you allow yourself to believe in any conspiracies, it becomes a bit of a mental chore to maintain a balanced perspective, and to judge each situation rationally.



posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 01:58 PM
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Still no evidence that the flyer is anything official after all this time, and is not mentioned on either the BATF or Austin police websites.

I'm still guessing it's (another) hoax to boost sales and stoke up emotions.

Fish, barrel...



posted on Jan, 21 2010 @ 03:42 PM
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reply to post by Wembley
 


The Gun show has to find a new venue, due to factors I will leave the rest of you to decide. This is not a hoax; it seems (in my opinion) to be testing ways to close "the gun show loophole" by local pressure rather than passing legislation in Congress, i.e. amending the GCA.

Austin News KVUE Report





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