Universal Flood, Made Up By Lunatics or Fact?

This thread is about the discussion of the Bible Flood, a universal flood, NOT a local flood. This thread is not about creatonism or evolution, although the outcome of your beliefs about a universal flood will influence both visions.

BEFORE making any comments, you need to watch the following video:

www.veoh.com...

If you cannot access the video, you can download it here:

www.facebook.com...

The video is part 2 of The Genesis Conflict by Prof. Walter Veith.

The video is by far the best one I have seen about the Bible Flood, and that is why I have chosen it as the basis for studying the EVIDENCE for a universal flood.

If you find anything that he says is not valid, post it here with evidence supporting your contradiction and we will discuss it.

If you don't have anything to say that will benefit the discussion, then please don't say anything, I don't care about your emotions, and I certainly don't care what you believe, if you have any evidence to the contrary you are welcome to post it, but please don't post rubbish.

Sorry for sounding rude but I have seen too many discussion going off topic because people start to fight about irrelevant issues based on their personal beliefs.

Hope you enjoy it!

Since the Story of the Great Flood recorded in the Bible was taken from a much older source , ( The Sumarians ) , then I would have to ask why would they go to all that trouble to record that epic event for posterity on clay tablets unless it had at least some semblance of truth to it ? May I suggest you might want to check out Professor Stitchins thoughts on this subject before reaching any conclusions about it yourself ?

[edit on 18-1-2010 by Zanti Misfit]

It is interesting that story of a great flood is told worldwide.

The Epic of Gilgamesh, The story of Zeus sending one and Prometheus telling his son Deucalion to build a chest in Greece, The Roman version featuring again Decalion, Transylvanian Gypsies even talk of a time where man lived forever in paradise and then a great flood happened because a woman ate some fish she wasn't supposed to, In Sumeria it even talks of an arc being built to house animals, Although the papyrus describing the Egyptian tale is damaged it can be made out that the gods were angry at the rebellious nature of man, All over Africa there are tales of great floods, Vogul in Asia, Manu of the Hindu, in China the Supreme Sovereign ordered the water god Gong Gong to create a flood as punishment and warning for human misbehavior.

Actually there are hundreds most with reccuring themes of man becoming wicked or overpopulated and a supreme being punishing them with flood but not before another will warn a good person first of it, and the number seven.

I find it interesting that it always the supreme being to initiate these and another lesser god who takes pity on humans and warns them, until we get to the modern well known myth of NOAH. I have a hundred more theories about this but as you said not the place for this.

Also you can find all these stories here in one convenient location:
www.talkorigins.org...

[edit on 18-1-2010 by Occy Anonymous]

Originally posted by Zanti Misfit
Since the Story of the Great Flood recorded in the Bible was taken from a much older source , ( The Sumarians ) , then I would have to ask why would they go to all that trouble to record that epic event for posterity on clay tablets unless it had at least some semblance of truth to it ? May I suggest you might want to check out Professor Stitchins thoughts on this subject before reaching and conclusions about it yourself ?

Hey Zanti,

Who is Professor Stitchins if I may ask? Would appreciate any resources of him if you don't mind.

This thread is about if a wordwide flood happened or not. I'm sure the Sumarian flood legends are interesting, and I'm sure what you say about the Bible copying an old Sumarian flood legend is a very interesting topic to discuss, but I would like to keep this thread targeted.

I really do appreciate your input

Please do post the resources I would really like to read some more

[edit on 18-1-2010 by Saidar]

Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
It is interesting that story of a great flood is told worldwide.

The Epic of Gilgamesh, The story of Zeus sending one and Prometheus telling his son Deucalion to build a chest in Greece, The Roman version featuring again Decalion, Transylvanian Gypsies even talk of a time where man lived forever in paradise and then a great flood happened because a woman ate some fish she wasn't supposed to, In Sumeria it even talks of an arc being built to house animals, Although the papyrus describing the Egyptian tale is damaged it can be made out that the gods were angry at the rebellious nature of man, All over Africa there are tales of great floods, Vogul in Asia, Manu of the Hindu, in China the Supreme Sovereign ordered the water god Gong Gong to create a flood as punishment and warning for human misbehavior.

Actually there are hundreds most with reccuring themes of man becoming wicked or overpopulated and a supreme being punishing them with flood but not before another will warn a good person first of it, and the number seven.

I find it interesting that it always the supreme being to initiate these and another lesser god who takes pity on humans and warns them, until we get to the modern well known myth of NOAH. I have a hundred more theories about this but as you said not the place for this.

Also you can find all these stories here in one convenient location:
www.talkorigins.org...

[edit on 18-1-2010 by Occy Anonymous]

Very interesting Occy, I admire your input! I knew there were other cultures with flood legends but never knew there were so many!

This issue is dire today because who do we believe, hundreds of cultures in the past, or "modern scientists" depicting it as superstition?

Watch the video and see the evidence for yourself, I'm sure you will enjoy it

oh science has proved that at the end of the last ice age sea levels rose. So if the majority of human populations was living in costal areas or on low level ground they would have been flooded out. So yes the flood happened as to why science says it didnt on one hand then on the other says that sea levels rose.......

I think its because it has to put human race farther back in history then current understanding will allow in terms of culture and science

[edit on 18-1-2010 by loner007]

Originally posted by loner007
oh science has proved that at the end of the last ice age sea levels rose. So if the majority of human populations was living in costal areas or on low level ground they would have been flooded out. So yes the flood happened as to why science says it didnt on one hand then on the other says that sea levels rose.......

Interesting point, but remember, this is about a GLOBAL FLOOD, everything was under water according to the Bible and other flood legends. The ice age flooding would only explain local floods

This site explains the Origins of the Flood " Myth " , and it's relation to the bibical version .


users.cwnet.com...













users.cwnet.com...








[edit on 18-1-2010 by Zanti Misfit]

Originally posted by Saidar

Originally posted by loner007
oh science has proved that at the end of the last ice age sea levels rose. So if the majority of human populations was living in costal areas or on low level ground they would have been flooded out. So yes the flood happened as to why science says it didnt on one hand then on the other says that sea levels rose.......

Interesting point, but remember, this is about a GLOBAL FLOOD, everything was under water according to the Bible and other flood legends. The ice age flooding would only explain local floods

The thawing off the last ice age would have caused global flooding.. evidence is everywhere. the north sea for example has only been there for the last 12 000 years before that it was land with wolly mammoths and humans sharing the same lands. There has been mammoths remains found under the north sea as well as other curioisties.

reply to post by Saidar



I will the videos when my internet is working a little bit faster then 4kb.sec(I know, don't laugh) But yes the fact of the many tales all depicting similar themes should at least provide some food for thought.

At the least it should so there was clearly more contact between the Ancients then first thought, though I am inclined to believe there was a great flood witnessed across the world, whether it was God, Aliens or Pollution I do not know however it is time we stopped dismissing this as silly fables and begin to look to the past for clues to our future.

It is an interesting topic though and worth looking into.

Originally posted by loner007

Originally posted by Saidar

Originally posted by loner007
oh science has proved that at the end of the last ice age sea levels rose. So if the majority of human populations was living in costal areas or on low level ground they would have been flooded out. So yes the flood happened as to why science says it didnt on one hand then on the other says that sea levels rose.......

Interesting point, but remember, this is about a GLOBAL FLOOD, everything was under water according to the Bible and other flood legends. The ice age flooding would only explain local floods

The thawing off the last ice age would have caused global flooding.. evidence is everywhere. the north sea for example has only been there for the last 12 000 years before that it was land with wolly mammoths and humans sharing the same lands. There has been mammoths remains found under the north sea as well as other curioisties.

If it is true what you say, and nobody will ever know because nobody was there, and no substantial evidence exist that concludes an ice age was the cause of this, then this is indeed a huge problem.

How did the land and air creatures survive if the entire planet(even the mountains) was under water? If you watch the video you will see that even the highest mountains has layers of calcium carbonate indicating marine life was present.

Think about it, huge problem.

Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
reply to post by Saidar

 

I will the videos when my internet is working a little bit faster then 4kb.sec(I know, don't laugh) But yes the fact of the many tales all depicting similar themes should at least provide some food for thought.

At the least it should so there was clearly more contact between the Ancients then first thought, though I am inclined to believe there was a great flood witnessed across the world, whether it was God, Aliens or Pollution I do not know however it is time we stopped dismissing this as silly fables and begin to look to the past for clues to our future.

It is an interesting topic though and worth looking into.

No worries I take it that you live in a third world country? I'm also struggling with internet here in South Africa, although a lot better than two years ago.

What is unbelievable is that a world wide flood evidence is everyhwere. If you watch the video you will see the evidence.

I would really like to post everything here but it is going to take me hours(I'm too lazy for that), rather just watch the video when you get the chance to

[edit on 18-1-2010 by Saidar]

Originally posted by Zanti Misfit
This site explains the Origins of the Flood " Myth " , and it's relation to the bibical version .


users.cwnet.com...


Thanks for the info, I read a similar article a while ago. It is very interesting, but what they never say is where they get the info from, old Sumerian tablets? And how do they date the stories? You should remember that the dates are relative, caculated on assumptions. I don't know what they are in this case but there are usually assumptions













users.cwnet.com...








[edit on 18-1-2010 by Zanti Misfit]

reply to post by Saidar


Haha no I live in Australia, just my apartment is neatly between a 30 meter wide blackspot hahaha.

But yes I will definitely watch the videos next time I go to a cafe or something. So would you like this discussion to be more about whether the flood occurred or what was the reason for the flood?

To me I definitely believe a flood occurred, the stories and physical evidence should be enough to prove that. As for reason...?

Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
reply to post by Saidar

 

Haha no I live in Australia, just my apartment is neatly between a 30 meter wide blackspot hahaha.

But yes I will definitely watch the videos next time I go to a cafe or something. So would you like this discussion to be more about whether the flood occurred or what was the reason for the flood?

To me I definitely believe a flood occurred, the stories and physical evidence should be enough to prove that. As for reason...?

reply to post by Saidar


I can see where you are going with this arguement but there are a couple of facts missing from these posts that may influence your thoughts. I can't watch the video because i am at work so if these points are addressed in it i apologise.

1. These global flood stories come from ancient cultures so we need to think in an "ancient way" i.e. how would they see things? So thinking like that, how big did they think the world was? Remember America was only "discovered" 517 years ago.

2. "How did the land and air creatures survive if the entire planet(even the mountains) was under water?"

A good question, but again it assumes that the ancient civilizations knew the size of the whole world, which we don't know if they did or not.

"If you watch the video you will see that even the highest mountains has layers of calcium carbonate indicating marine life was present.

Think about it, huge problem."

Not really a huge problem when you know how mountains are formed.

Originally posted by Occy Anonymous
reply to post by Saidar

 

Haha no I live in Australia, just my apartment is neatly between a 30 meter wide blackspot hahaha.

But yes I will definitely watch the videos next time I go to a cafe or something. So would you like this discussion to be more about whether the flood occurred or what was the reason for the flood?

To me I definitely believe a flood occurred, the stories and physical evidence should be enough to prove that. As for reason...?

Awesome nice country, was there on vacation a few years ago...

Well you see, "science" depicts a world wide flood as superstition and a bed time story.

Many people on this forum are more open minded, but the people who really influence our universities stick to their darwinism theory, and involving a world wide flood will destroy it, because then everything should start over (nothing alive).

SO I think it is important to discuss whether a global flood really happened.

Although WHY it happened, and HOW it happened are two different questions and meant for different discussions. Why it happened is rooted to your own beliefs, me, a Bible believer, believe that the entire world was evil and God wanted to end it all, and to give mankind another chance to prove itself, by letting Noah and his family live.

HOW it happened an be found in the Bible, there are many theories on what the Bible is really trying to say, but the most accepted one is that a huge volume of water orbitted our planet, screening us from solar radiation, and increasing the pressure on earth (thus resulting in longer life span, why reptiles were so big before the flood (reptiles never stop growing), everyone before the flood was extremely old, hundreds of years. )

One source for all that water can be that something caused that water to fall to earth, no one knows what caused it but there are some theories.

Other sources include the water beneath the earth, the Bible says the fountains below the surfae broke open and huge volumes of water came out. All the cracks on the earth's surface could have been where the earth broke open.

A huge earthquake of some sort could have caused that to happen, like I said, no one really knows.

All of this is just speculation, go and read Genesis for the full story.

Originally posted by stooge247
reply to post by Saidar

 

I can see where you are going with this arguement but there are a couple of facts missing from these posts that may influence your thoughts. I can't watch the video because i am at work so if these points are addressed in it i apologise.

1. These global flood stories come from ancient cultures so we need to think in an "ancient way" i.e. how would they see things? So thinking like that, how big did they think the world was? Remember America was only "discovered" 517 years ago.

2. "How did the land and air creatures survive if the entire planet(even the mountains) was under water?"

A good question, but again it assumes that the ancient civilizations knew the size of the whole world, which we don't know if they did or not.

"If you watch the video you will see that even the highest mountains has layers of calcium carbonate indicating marine life was present.

Think about it, huge problem."

Not really a huge problem when you know how mountains are formed.

Hey, thanks for your input. I advise you to watch the video first. Your second question IS ONE MAJOR PROBLEM. If there are evidence that the entire world was under water, then we definitely have a problem if you believe what are written in today's text books.

Watch the video, and if you hate it and want to kill the guy, let's discuss the problems, if you love it, awesome. but let's discuss the problems with the video if there are any.

Another thing, "America was only "discovered" 517 years ago.", how sure are you about that? This has nothing to do with the topic but history are usually written by the ones in power so don't take everything you read for granted.

There is not evidence that the entire world was under water at the same time. Not one single shred of evidence.

We have a collection of tales from around the world of local floods. That's it. From their perspective the 'entire world' (that they knew) was flooded.

There's no mystery.

reply to post by Saidar
I watched the video as one of your prerequisites. I noticed that in his presentation of part 1, he had shown the flow patterns of the continents throughout the geological boundaries. He, I believe unknowingly, showed the answer to the puzzle.

He showed how though the course of time the continents would lift and drop changing how water ran off of them. Even in the middle of the united states was a shallow sea, then the continental mass lifted, and the water ran off. Through these series of graphs it was highly possible that huge land masses could in fact dip below the current sea level, stay long enough to collect the necessary aquatic life forms, then be heaved up thousands of feet into the air. He himself has shown that the continents have more of a resilience and rebounding capability, than strict rigidity.

As has been pointed out before if there were a complete global flood as he depicts, at the same time leaving no exposed land, no life forms would have survived, and we know that is not the case. And I highly doubt that a boat could be constructed that could hold two of each and every species of plant, foul, insect, land and sea creatures, all at once.

I also am disappointed that he only used the bible as his main document for research. That in itself may be reason to give his theory less credibility.

If my comments are considered "Rubbish" then I will post no more.