The economy is in much worse shape than we think

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
reply to post by thoughtsfull

 

No one, no one loves taxes. That's a reality.

But unfortunately, do know where the taxes are going to. Social spending in a civilised country is only natural if we are to maintain a standard of civilised living.

Who's gonna subsidize for the cop's salary to feed his family and keep us all safe? Who's gonna subsidize for the less priviledged child's education? Who's gonna subsidize for the old folk's medical bills when he falls sick?

Bailout monies though painful and at times seem unfair, but those are not charity, but loans with interest to be repaid back as well as a foot into the Corporation's boardroom, to direct and control by the people's elected representative, an opportunity not to be missed to hamper corporate greed.

How the taxes should be expended is a question mark, but a question mark we have control over every 4 or 5 years depending on the country we live in by our sacred votes.

If we dont agree to taxes, then you and I best be prepared to find a jungle in the uninhabited Amazon jungles to live out the rest of our lives.



[edit on 17-1-2010 by SeekerofTruth101]

Bank Failures

Save this link in your bookmarks for when you need some morbid comedy.

Bank Failures[

2000-2 listed (not sure if this is for the whole year or just the 4th quarter)
2001-4
2002-11
2003-3
2004-4
2005-0 (none listed)
2006-0 (none listed)
2007-3
2008-26
2009-140
2010-4 (current to January 15th, 2010)

140 banks collapsed while the DOW trend up 1,700 points during the same time frame.

DOW

That dog don't hunt in my woods! Wait until the 4th quarter earning reports trickle in all February. It's going to be a lOoOoOoOoOoOng year.

If something positive doesn't happen real soon.................

Once upon a time, at Enron, everybody went to work one morning, just like any other. On the way to work, they thought they still had a job. On the way home, in shock, they still thought they had a 401K.

The end.

We are going to wake up one day and it's going to be like 911. Like Enron.

Hang on Dorothy because Kansas is about to go bye bye.

Let's all hope I have no idea what I am talking about.
After all, it's mostly just facts.

Originally posted by Genfinity

140 banks collapsed while the DOW trend up 1,700 points during the same time frame.

Indeed. Insanity.

What's even worse is that when you look at the Dow in other currenencies, such as euros, its perfomance is much less upbeat. This is despite understated inflation AND the fact that the component companies that make up the Dow have been reshuffled recently to make it look better. All that cosmetic surgery, and still the old jowls are sagging...

[edit on 1/17/10 by silent thunder]

read somewhere on line
a rumor that the dow
was doing so good
cuz the Fed had printed
a bunch of money and
bought stocks with it...


just spreading rumors...

reply to post by DChenO


You can't pay your mastercard. So you call visa and ask them to raise your credit limit.

They raise your limit.

Now you can pay your mastercard.

Isn't that cool? Everything is back to normal now. Right???

The only problem is, you owed mastercard a MINIMUM payment of $200.00 on a $10,000.00 overall balance. The monthly interest is about $150.00 per month. So you only payed down the principal by $50.00.

However, you did a cash advance from your visa so in addition to what ever the balance is on that, now it's $200.00 more. Plus the cash advance fee. Plus the higher interest placed on cash advances. As if your interest isn't high enough already.

So really, what progress have you made? None; you are now in worse shape then you were before you made a payment.

Your life will go on but sooner or later, your going to have an event that will make it impossible to continue even the minimum payments on these cards.

In the mean time, you struggle to keep the cards in good standing. Meanwhile, the banks continue to raise your limit, which you go along with not because you want to, but out of shear desperation.

So the issue at hand is whether to walk away from the debt now (default on it) or wiat until the debt is even more and walk away from it then.

And this, in effect, is the condition our country is in. The longer the DOW corporations "Enron" the numbers, the worse the end game is going to be.

Add to it that every country in the world, every single one, is plugged into our economy within two degrees. Which means when we go down, the ENTIRE world economy will follow shortly after.

When you look at a world map when all of this is over, it won't look anything like it does today.

What happens if we have a 6.+ earthquake on US soil in the middle of all this? Or a war opens up on another front?

By the end of the 1st quarter, we'll all have a better understanding of were all this is going. But current indicators don't look good.

One last thing, after the first two weeks of 2009, only 2 banks had failed. In the first two weeks of this year, the number is already 4. There is plenty of time for it to slow down but there is just as much time for it to speed up.

Right now, we are on the edge of the cliff. One of three things is going to happen;

1) We will make it back on firm land.
2) We will fall over the cliff.
3) The ground beneath our feet will fall and we will free fall with it.

My advice to everyone is to work as much as you can while you still can. If anyone in your house is able to work, get them employed with one or two jobs as fast as you can. ANY job. Minimum wage if need be.

Also, if you have tens of thousands of dollars in cash sitting in a bank, take $10,000 of it (or 10%, whichever is greater) and put it in a safe deposit box in the form of $20 dollar bills.

If your bank closes, the FDIC has you insured up to $200,000 right now. But they also have the legal right to hold off on repaying you for 100 years. That's right. 100 years.

So put your money in a safe deposit box while you still can.

It's going to be bad but the sooner our nation defaults, the better it will be in the long run. Regardless, there will be no escape in the short term. I hate being so morbid about it but the numbers don't lie.

In the meantime, they will keep printing money. And I already explained that effect. As for preparing, just do the best you can. Unless your obtusely wealthy, it's not possible to prepare for this.

What I can tell you is this; you can stop paying your credit cards now; that's right, just walk away from it.

Yes, they'll call you but oh well.

You might think that will make the situation worse. We are way past that point. The federal government and the fortune 500 companies are using Enron accounting practices to keep it going.

They will keep doing it, they will keep robbing the system, until there is absolutely no way to continue. Your default will only help pull the plug on this sooner, making the effects shorter.

Why wait until the country is $24 trillion in debt? Why not do it now while our debt is only $12 trillion?

The world is going to be furious with us. Nuclear bombs may be the only thing that keeps them out. Unless they just let the international community walk right in.

And why not? DC has done everything else to destroy this country.

America never wanted change. We wanted everything to stay exactly the way it was. That's why we kept re-electing the same morons over and over again.

The sooner they pull the plug on this disaster, the sooner it will be over.

With a $12 trillion dollar debt, if every American would be kind enough to pay $40,000 IN ADDITION to the 18% they already pay in taxes, we will just break even.

That's if we commit today, tonight, right now.

So do you want to pay it off or walk away? Because you owe $40,000 per person in your house PLUS all the other taxes.

[edit on 1/17/2010 by Genfinity]

Originally posted by DChenO
read somewhere on line
a rumor that the dow
was doing so good
cuz the Fed had printed
a bunch of money and
bought stocks with it...
just spreading rumors...

You might be hearing about the PPT
(Those who's name should not be said.)
and realize the markets are a farce.

It gets better than that. Ponder this.
How are the banks making record profits?
Are they lending more and getting interest? NO.
Where did all those billions come from in such a short time?
How about buying stocks and US debt in the forms of bonds.
So when these banks start paying the US back,
guess what the market will do?


[edit on 17-1-2010 by Absum!]

Things are not getting better and will not get better until the excess debt load is gone. We are at 370% debt to GDP the highest in history still and it has only dropped a couple percent in the last year.

The only other time it has been over 300% is during the great depression. Historically we need to be around 150% debt to GDP. What this means in simple terms is in general companies and people are in hawk to their eyeballs and the money gained from the excessive borrowing is actually what has been fueling ALL of our growth for the last 20 years. Until this excessive debt is paid or written off the economy cannot grow and that will take years.

This is not a problem that can be solved quickly, and there are only two solutions both of which are horrible. Massive inflation or massive deflation, either way the economy will be getting much worse and very soon because now the government has basically used up all its ability to borrow money as well, just look at the recent bond auctions. Government/Fed dollars is the only thing that has kept the economy from tanking and they simply cannot continue to do so anymore without almost total inflation.

Anyone who thinks the worst is behind us is ignorant of the situation we are really in.

I am a state government employee.

I have been with the same state department for more than 15 years.


I am required to file my tax returns (federal and State), on time, as a condition of my employment. Because I fully expected to recieve refunds on both returns, and because my state's financial situatation forced it to issue IOU's soon after the filing season began last year, I prepared my taxes yesterday; hoping to insure that I would be one, of the possibly few, to recceive a check, not an IOU, this year.


I was shocked to find out that I would actually have to pay state taxes this year! Never happened before.


But what REALLY stunned me was what I discovered when I looked at my W-2's for the last 3 years:




I AM MAKING ALMOST $3,000.00 PER YEAR LESS NOW THAN I MADE IN 2007!!!



Now understand, I am now working, and always have worked, a full 40 hour week. I have accrued over 300 hours of vacation time and over 100 hours of sick leave.

So it is not like I've been somehow "cutting my own throat" in the pay department. I even recieved a promotion last year!

And yet, my earnings have plummeted.


And the scary thing is, there really does not seem to be anything in forseeable future to make me think that things will be getting any better.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101

Technology had increased the economic wealth of nations in the past, so too will technology increase wealth today and the future. Americans are the leaders of technologies and marketing, are a no brainer competition when pitted against the chinese, indians or africans, as mentioned, not out of ethnic discrimination but the high level of quality education offered to every american child.

Speaker of Truth-
Are you kidding me??? "high level of quality education"? Really? I don't know where your kids go to school, but trust me the quality of the average American education has been in the toilet for many years! I have a 7th grader and a 10th grader...in what is considered a "good school"- that rates highly in those useless state tests. CATS)
When I was in school (graduated HS 1980) we ALWAYS had homework. My kids NEVER have homework they can't finish in 15 minutes. (And yes they are both in the "advanced" classes)
We HAD to do a book report like EVERY MONTH. I can count on ONE HAND the # of book reports BOTH of my kids have had to do EVER!!! WTH? For God's sake- Do you know that over 80% of kids CAN'T WRITE IN CURSIVE?????? I had handwriting class through like 7th grade! They "learned" cursive only in 2nd grade. Try to have an intelligent conversation with one of today's HS kids...it's like talking to a carrot. Most are the most apathetic, lazy, "let school be over so I can get my Iphone fix" texting 5,000 times a month losers. And these are our future??? We're screwed.

If you want more confirmation just look how many "adults" on ATS can't even spell or use proper grammar.

One more thing...my Mom is a retired Art teacher. I remember back in the 70's when she was teaching in a rural farm community HS. She had a yearly budget of like $5,000. Here's some of the stuff they did-
Oil, Acylic, & Watercolor painting
Charcoal & Pastel
Airbrush! (with X-acto knives for stencils)
Pottery with kiln!
Art History
SILVERSMITHING!!!! (yes with torches, etc...)
There was alot more I can't remember.
Anyway, the point is the public schools then had $$$ to do cool stuff. Today Mom still teaches part time in a ritzy private school. You want to know her budget for the whole year? $100. For the whole school. Can hardly buy pencils and paper. And parents pay about $5K to send thier kids there per year. But when the football team needs uniforms, equipment, new lights, new weight room, etc....the $$$ is ALWAYS there. How pathetic is that? Never any $$$ for Art & Music.
Still think the American school system is so great?

-Boypony

Good! I've been saying this all along - I cannot wait for this house of cards to blow apart. The "economy" is nothing more than a vessel of control and manipulation for the benefit of very few. It is the blood, sweat and tears on millions of workers that make the economy what it is, yet merely a handful reap the rewards. The sooner we discard this broken system built upon slaverey and usury, the sooner all of mankind will be free.

It will be refreshing to see people forced into personal responsibility and focus on enriching the communities within which they live. It will be refreshing to watch the baker trade his/her baked goods for eggs and flour. It will be refreshing to see people shed the corporate monkies from off their backs so that they may stand again on their own and directly benefit from their own labor. Finally, it will be refreshing to watch the unseen hand which has stolen from us for generations whither and die! I am 100% for a complete collapse. I cannot come soon enough!!!

reply to post by Boypony


As you had taken one aspect of my overall post, i will take it that you agree with my other points except the education part, and will respond accordingly.

Perhaps I had been fortunate, and other children in my state had been fortunate. Utimately it boils down to RESPONSIBLITY - who is responsible for the the child? The State, our teachers or us as parents?

The deliberated answer is all the above. We as parents are the first line to defend the freedom of illiteracy. If we role models fail, it would only be natural our kids fail. If we succeed and yet the environment of the school sucks, then it is the fault of the administratiors and its teachers that ought to be given the boot, regardless if friend or foe. Education of our young in their formative years are to crucial to leave it to 'chance'.

If it is the State's fault, their lack of foresight and funding, then our votes will have to count, for the sake of our next generation, which is more important than us adults, for we will all grow old soon and it will be our young who will maintain our civilisation and society through their collective intelligence, hard work, and efforts. We must not fail them or we will ultimately fail ourselves.

reply to post by Genfinity


You are only basing your assumption that personal income tax revenues will be use to pay off our debts. This is too much and too far from the truth.

US is a land of resources. If it is protected, or even unprotected at today's rate, it alone will be more than enough to pay off even $24trillion debt within a few years.

Furthermore, its not like americans will roll over and be dead today. The masses are the greatest resource a country can EVER have. Americans are not lazy people, and had never been, based on a percentage level compared to any other nation. The survival instinct is horn edged for centuries.

As long as they regain their confidence back, spend wisely on quality products for long term savings, continue their quality work ethic, this alone will pay off even $24 Trillion debt within years. The japs had done it before in 1945, and the american people are not lesser people than the japs.

One crucial aspect will be the political will to protect America. Will the current administration be intelligent enough, savvy and diplomatic enough, to protect american workers interest? If not, you know who next to vote for. The world is not asking for foreclosure now anyway.

So relax, get a job, any job, kick out the illegal aliens, like you said, and do it right, with american ingrained ethics of the 40s, and within a few years, taxes will fall and every garage a new improve green powerful vehicle for Route 66 roadtrips.

I don't consider myself a doom and gloomer, but a realist. Folks, there is no good news out there anywhere. I constantly look for signs of an improved economy, and there's nothing.. I live in an urban area, and the signs of an economic meltdown are everywhere, and they are non-stop.

I have never seen so many people begging on the street. And now I see women beging, that I never saw before. If you look around, you don't have to be an economics major to see we are in a bad, bad way.

The governemnt doesn't want to panic people, so they have the controlled media spew out this drivel about turning the corner to better times. The only corner we are turning, is into a blind alley. The government lies, it's what they do best. If you take the time to dig through government stats, again, it doesn't take a genuis to figure out we are screwed. There is no way we as a nation will ever pay back this national debt in our lifetime. Did you totally understand that?? Never in our lifetime.


The only way the governent can even come close to paying the debt back is de -value the dollar on purpose. Yes, I said on purpose.. They are doing it every day. Do you not see how much less you money buys each time you go out. ?? That's your governement at work.

we are soon going to go into hyper inflation. look for the money to be devalued all at one time, perhaps up to 50%. it will be chaos overnight. All prices double overnight. Again, grasp the concept. A devalued dollar is the only way they can pay the national debt back.

Do you see the FED trying to stop the fall of the dollar??? They want it to fall. They are gettting what they want, and we are losing every dollar we ever saved to inflation.

We will all look back on 2010 as the year it all fell apart. Do your own research. Don't rely on anyone from the government to tell you the truth.

The commercial loan leg of the banking industry is going to implode this year. Have you seen all the commercial businesses that are empty?? From small town America, to main street big town, it's all the same. Empty buildings eveywhere. it's going to get worse folks, not better. Who do you think is going to buy all those toxic assets that go into forclosure?? There isn't anybody left to buy stuff.. Everybody's broke, but China.


So get used to empty stores, empty houses, and empty food banks. Get used to enlarging ranks of unemployed, and increased taxes to make up for the shortfall in the government coffers.


Many Americans still have a can-do attitude. But sooner or later, when you've been beat down after looking for work for a year, lost your house, barely feeding your kids, you get a little tired. The natives are getting restless. Why do you think the government keeps extending unemployment benifits? They can hear the restless natives, and they are worried. they should be--we all should be.

So stay aware, and stay real--good luck all.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


However counter intuitive it sounds, LOWER taxes increase government receipts, not the reverse. JFK, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush all reduced the deficit and in Clinton's case eliminated it by cutting taxes, not increasing them. Taxes are simply a feel good approach used by liberals to drive an egalatarian agenda. When you lower taxes folks invest, hire more people, spend more and all of that increases the amount of money that goes to the government. When you raise taxes you reduce the incentive to work and invest and the economy tanks further. The economic data going back over 60 years makes this case irrefutable. The left likes taxes because they use taxes to pursue a SOCIAL agenda,not an ECONOMIC agenda. Higher taxes will never reduce the deficit, only reduced spending and a low tax, job creating economic policy will do that.

The economy is on the rebound. Folks are still in bad shape and it will take a long time for it to totally rebound, but it is on the way back. When it does come back, it will skyrocket. Inventorys are at all time lows, companys have made themselves more efficient during this period and as a result will be more profitable. We'll be in good shape by the end of 2011. I hate to say it, but the natural economic cycle is likely to hit just in time for Obama to claim credit and win reelection

reply to post by dolphinfan


With reference to your belief that lower taxes will increase spending and will be an incentive to work harder, I humbly apologise that I cannot with conscience agree to it, ever again.

George Bush pushed that bill, and it only helped the rich to get richer and hoard up their money, the masses did spend, but what did they spend on? - cheap China products, benefiting the Globalist Corporations, not on american products that was suppose to help the american worker.

Therefore, to lower taxes is sucidal to the masses and will only encourage the rich to shirk fruther from their social responsibilities to the masses.

In Australia, the tax rate is 40% for decades. Did that prevented the masses from working, and companies from investing? Nope, it did not. Thus high tax rate is and never an disincentive to work and investment.

There is a reason for high taxes, and it is because of the financial mess as well as 2 resource drainning wars during the Bush years. In times of boom, taxes should be lowered as revenues from resources and other taxes would be enough to fund spending.

But unfortunately, today is not a time of boom, but almost gloom, and thus need everyone's help to protect societies. High taxes or more form of taxes are certainly a pain, but at least we who are able and have a job still have food on our tables. Think of those in our society who don't. Do you sleep with a sound conscience at night?

Taxes alone is but only one remedy for the ills facing global economies. Our elected representatives need to really sit down, listen and discuss with the masses for directions to head towards, to correct climategate, unfettered capitialism, pandemics hoaxes, draining wars, unprotected globalisation, unfair free trade, etc.

But first, lets you and I share our wealth to fix citizens' tummies first before doing anything else. US is a land of plenty, and only by sharing within responsible societies can we evolve into better existance.

You and I do have that capability, starting with ourselves, our families, relatives and friends. Inter connected, they make up our society.

I recall about 4 years ago i started talking about the impending economic collapse....and most of my friends laughed at me, and called me paranoid. I then made plans to move home because i knew my family would need help. I moved home 2 years ago right after the collapse had seriously began....and i continued to tell them how much worse it would get. They continued to laugh, and many just said "its just the regular market fluctuations, up and down...it will shortly be over"....just as they had heard it on TV. I knew, from reading extensive independent news that this was not the case, but no one wanted to listen. Furthermore, the mainstream news, even at that time (about 4 months into the recession, though they refused to call it recession at the time) continually said "this is the bottom, we are about to turn up again. Not surprisingly, the media comes on every month and again says " ok, NOW we have hit bottom, but the recession is just about over."

I wonder how many times people can hear the news people say every month "ok, NOW its over" and continue to believe them? My friends CONTINUE to echo to me, every month, "well, the news said its over now" and keep buying the garbage the media tells them. What does it take people to just start taking simple steps to protect themselves financially? Its like no one even wants to THINK about the idea that it may truly be as bad as it is. Denial of the saddest sort.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


I wish I could agree with all you said above, but I can't. Our politicians aren't doing a thing to help the people of this nation with regard to industry offshoring. They aren't doing a thing to help small businesses either. I'm not sure where you live, but you must drive around without looking at any of the shops. More and more are empty. It sounds to me like you're an economics major and that you'd simply fire back that there's excess capacity in the commercial sector that'll eventually be taken up by new occupants (which isn't happening) or written down by the banks and sold at auction (which also isn't true). These locations are being held off the books by the banks. Just look at the Circuit City and Joe's Sports fiascos to see just how much square footage is there. The banks aren't reducing the prices, they are simply eating the cost of property taxes and other expenses and using the unending money from the Fed to pay it all.

There are far too many shady practices going on, and those big banks and the Fed are at the heart of it all. At least Volcker injected some reason into the system, though Obama doesn't have the balls to reinstate Glass-Steigall, as should have happened long ago.

Until the big banks fail and crumble to the ground, we're not going to see the bottom. Everyone right now is enjoying a "suckers rally" just like they did in '30. Things are getting pumped up enough to get everyone back into the game after they have already taken incredible losses, and that's when a very loud thud will be heard around the world when it drops again. The fat lady hasn't begun to sing yet. She's not even on stage. You'll know her curtain call is coming when the Fed raises interest rates and financing the debt does up exponentially. That's when things get really interesting. Right now it's all about milking the people for every dime they have promising false hope and that the worst is behind us. Everyone has a very rude awaking coming, and the beginning of that will be when interest rates rise. Just yesterday China announced over 10% growth and that they are standing on the brakes. It won't be too much longer. We still have Portugal, Ireland, Greece, and Spain to watch along with the likes of Ukraine and Latvia, before the fat lady steps a toe on the stage.

Enjoy the show, but be prepared.

we are only seeing the very begining of what is going to be our worst nightmare...

we owe an enourmous amonut of money to the wrong nations... and when they try to collect it is all over...

dollar is going down.. stocks are down, unemployment is going up, all other tings are collapsing and they want us to buy into it that it is doing a turn...

Nope..... get ready for a ride folks... cuz it is gonna get real ugly here soon...

they talk about revolutions in other nations.... the world has seen nothing till this one kicks off..and then if you got some place to go outside of a city...i would say you ought to be considering that option even tonight... because when (not if) it breaks...all hell is gonna go loose and there is not a power on earth that is going to quell it...

Rising prices is a good sign. Basic Free Market had always been the free hand of supply and demand that dictates which way the market goes. Rising inflation would mean that there is a DEMAND that would need supply to increase.

And that means more jobs will have to be created to meet such demands, or workers paid more to ensure optimum productivity.

The only problem is, the american consumer would rather pay more to buying cheap and unreliable products with its replacement than to support american quality made products, leaving american workers out of job and the China slaves kept in poverty by the rich and tyrants.

May unions all over the world start cranking up to protect their workers, if Corporation puppet elected representatives failed to move.

-----------

Debts are often a worry, but as yet, an unnecessary fear, for creditors are not banging on US doors to foreclose or demand payment. If one constantly thinks of the trillion dollar dept as payment at one go, that would only be a delusion. One only needs to pay back smaller amounts to serve the loan and interest, something a rich resource and human capital country like US is fully capable of.

The only problem on this debt issue is further spending which TPTB best get rational and think of streamlining, cut down on waste and unnecessary funding, if such spending cannot generate financial or better social returns for american citizens.

-------

Many are aware of the economic problems. I have no power to change anything. Neither do you. But if you and I can discuss, find a solution and convince our families, relatives, friends and credible elected representatives, change may be possible, rather than to give up.Quitting is not a natural human trait.

Alone, we are nothing. But when combined with one clear goal, the common masses are formidable.

Good luck!



[edit on 23-1-2010 by SeekerofTruth101]

yes they are much worse....

the administration and fed has made it a point to keep the stock market above 10,000 in order to facilitate the public's perspective that there is a economic recovery......

withouth external artificial support the market would be much much lower....without the fed's buying of mortgage toxic waste and treasury debt intrest rates would be higher.....the life support has given the financial system the appearance of a recovery....while lending to mainstreet has continued to slow.

while others are concerned with the dollar ....i think the euro is in bigger trouble right now