Unkown non-civil helicopter over Manchester UK - any thoughts?, page 1
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 2 times
Topic started on 17-1-2010 @ 10:39 AM by dogsounds
Hey all

I'm not one to usually post such things, but just had an odd experience that I thought I would pick your collective brains about. If there is a better forum for this than here, mods feel free to move.

I live in a suburb of Manchester, UK, and I was just sitting at my desk, working away, when I heard a helicopter outisde the house - but a very odd-sounding one. I'm more than used to our local police chopper, which is an MD902 Explorer and has a very bassy chop sound, with a heavy turbine whine. But this sounded very...I can only say "thin", no real bass to the sound at all, and no distinctive "chop", just a thin rumble. There was no real discernible high-pitch whine to it either. So, curious, I went outside.

I saw a helicopter hovering above the house (this is a suburban area) about, I estimate 100-150 feet, just sitting there, dead still. Unfortunately my phone batteries are kaput so I didn't get chance to take a picture. I remained for about a minute and a half and then flew off to the south west.

I didn't have my phone for a pic, but I did scoot inside to get some binoculars to get a good look-see, and what I saw was definitely not Greater Manchester Police's air unit. Neither was it, as far as I could tell, a civilian craft. it had absolutely NO markings whaatsover - no registry number, nothing. It was also, as far as I could discern, either black or a very dark green (could have been a dark blue or very dark grey, but against a blue sky it was hard to tell for sure).

Now, I'm no aviation expert, but I am pretty sure that civiilian and law-enforcement aircraft are not allowed to fly around without markings or registrations on them. So could this be military? If so, what the heck is it doing over this leafy little suburb?

Puzzled I started researching helicopters to see what it could be - it had a very distinctive tail rotor which I kept in my mind's eye. Now, this is what the local police ND902 unit looks like:



And based on what I saw - the disctinctive tail rotor housing, the large and obvious exhaust at the rear of the rotor housing, the nearest comparison I can find is this, a Gazelle AH1:



However, what I saw a a squarer nose and canopy, more akin to somthing like an Apache, but about the same height and size as the Gazelle above.

But from what I read the Gazelles have all been retired. So now I am stumped. If it was military, why use a retired craft and why have no markings or inignia at all? If police, the same applies. If civilian, the above still applies but can you even buy ex-army hardware like that? And if civil OR military, why would it be stopped dead over a suburban area?

I thought I'd put this out there for anyone who knows about helicopters or has any experience in such matters to be able to offer any ideas. The only thing I can say with certainty is that the tail rotor housing of the Gazelle is spot-on to what I saw.

[edit on 17-1-2010 by dogsounds]

[edit on 17-1-2010 by dogsounds]


reply posted on 17-1-2010 @ 10:56 AM by dogsounds
reply to post by Air Force Ron



Actually, oddly. I had *just* been on ATS earlier. But I was wandering about the net investigating 1991VG, which I am sure is of no conequence

Seems odd though, if it was military or black, what on earth would be of interest in the suburbs? Usually the only reason a helicopter hovers around over here is because some scrotey little chav has TWOK'ed a car or burgled a house and they are helping the ground officers track them down. But there were no sounds of police activity going on, just an annoyed dog and someone doing DIY (it is Sunday, after all )

I'm hoping someone with knowledge of aircraft may be able to help identify it better from what little info I can give...



reply posted on 17-1-2010 @ 12:52 PM by Kram09
reply to post by dogsounds



Well i live in the Greater Manchester area.

I'll keep a lookout for any unusual helicopters.

I'm also familiar with the normal police helicopter. It's woken me up in the past, during the night.


reply posted on 17-1-2010 @ 01:12 PM by dogsounds
reply to post by Kram09



Thanks

That's how I knew it wasn't the usual chopper copper when I heard it - I'm so used to that that this one sounded totally different. No bass, no whine, no harmonics. Very odd.


reply posted on 17-1-2010 @ 02:20 PM by dogsounds
reply to post by ulsterman



Interesting, but nah, it's tail rotor housing thing was closer to the Gazelle. And it had the big exhaust tube housing aft of the rotor housing like on the Gazelle (but not as bulky perhaps). And it did have skids.

(Plus, if we had anything as advanced as a Commanche I'd die of shock!)


reply posted on 17-1-2010 @ 04:33 PM by dogsounds
Originally posted by The_Archangel
Look at both the Eurocopter Dauphin and the Agusta/Westland AW109. Both of these are used by 8 (SF) Flight, AAC.


Interesting. See below for the Dauphin. The Westland doesn't match either, there is no lower stabilizer fin on the rear rotor housing , and it didn't look this kind of size - it loked like a two-door machine. If I had seen a Westland I would have thought "Cool, Airwolf clone!" (even though that was a Bell, I know )

Originally posted by SAB17
Have you looked at a Dauphin Helicopter? I think that they have the same kind of tail rotor assembly that you are talking about, and have the more square nose as well.

www.enemyforces.net...
Like this?


It does, but the nose end is too pointy - the canopy and nose didn't have such a steep angle as that. The 'squarness' was more from the tip of the nose right back to the rotor housing. Wasn't quite as chunky and fat either, the whole craft seemed sleeker - less tall - somehow. But not quite as 'old school' as the Gazelle. Really wish my phone had been charged up, darn it!

Looking at these pics (thanks guys), I think the tail end was much like the Dauphin, but I am beginning to think there was perhaps a stabilizer fin at the bottom too, under the circular rotor housing, pointing backwards, like a slightly smaller mirror image of the fin above ( I am afraid I know none of the relevant terminology here so bear with me!). Unfortunately this is from memory, and we know how reliable that is. The canopy looked to be less of 'winshield and windows' affair and more of an actual canopy - I can only really describe it like the kind of thing you see on, say, a Cobra.

The one thing I remember 100% though is that the exhausts behind the rotors were definitely not hidden away in the body panelling like the Dauphin and Westland, they were definitely exposed, quite long, and did not seem attached to the main beam running from the cockpit body to the tail rotors (whetever you call that). So far the Gazelle is the only thing that looks remotely close, it would just need a less-bulbous nose and main hull.

Like you say, I am sure there is some normal, harmless explanation, but heck if I know what it is. Who flies without markings?


reply posted on 18-1-2010 @ 06:32 PM by deckard83
here's a gazelle from 8 Flight Army Air Corps who support SAS in the anti-terrorist role and i don't think they have retired it
www.hmfriends.org.uk... according to www.hmfriends.org.uk...
And it not listed as sold, stored or written off in www.ukserials.com...
Of course the nose is still a problem but the exhaust is a bit different from some of the other gazelles in fact there does seem to be a few variations in the army ones. There are so some gazelles in private hands. Any newer helicoptor seems to have the engine more embedded.


reply posted on 18-1-2010 @ 06:56 PM by ChemicalSubstance
reply to post by dogsounds



That sounds just like the helicopter usually parked in a compound along side the canal about a mile or so out of Hattersley, black with no markings.

I think the owner had a similar one previously and has been flying them for atleast ten years that I know of. If you walk down the canal from Hattersley toward Ashton Under Lyne, you should see it somewhere on the opposite side of the canal.

I had a quick look on Google Images and these two are the most similar ones I could find.


I remember the front end being shaped more like this.


[edit on 18-1-2010 by ChemicalSubstance]


reply posted on 18-1-2010 @ 07:32 PM by dogsounds
Thanks all!

In answer to the pics, definitely not anything like the Bell 222B (Airwolf). man, that's a gorgeous looking craft, if I do say so.

If anything, yes, it bears the most resemblance to Blue Thunder (the poor man's Airwolf, lol) but the canopy was not quite as bulky as that, it was more flush with the general hull shape.

Interesting note about seeing one down south over buildings. Even if it is a private craft, I still don't see why someone would be hovering over suburbia like that. And again, wouldn't it be legally required to have a registration or markings on it on the boom (that was the techincal term I was looking for, thaks!) for identification? Wouldn't that be like driving a car without a licence plate (i.e. utterly illegal)?

To the comment about the transmitter, I do live near Winter Hill (when I say 'near' I mean, maybe within 50 miles or something) but Winter Hill isn't used anymore, and that still wouldn't explain why it was over houses so low...I can't the TV Licensing Authority spending that much money to find individual houses!

I'm not sure I will find out what it really was. I'm not sold on civilian due to the lack of markings, and I can't see a civilian craft getting permission to tly that low over houses. I'm not sold on military as you would expect some kind of markings or even basic armament, and I'm not even sure we have black or very dark 'official' military helicopters (and again, can't see why they would be doing what they were). Not sold on police because GMP have one chopper, and it was not that. Can't have been an air-ambulance as, again, no markings, and they don't tend to be dark colors. I'm sure it can't have been local media, as again, no markings - and I would suspect our media are more likely to hire craft out rather than actually buy them.

So...I have no idea. Very odd, very weird. I will add it to my catalog of awe inspiring and bizarre aircraft that have flown over my house. So far, alongside this helicopter, we have had VERY low fly-bys by a Vulcan, a Lancaster bomber, a Spitfire, a Mustang, and even a Messerschmitt ME109 (which was actually play-dogfighting with the Spitfire!). I kid you not. The best was the Spitfire - it sounded beautiful, that big old roaring Rolls-Royce - and the most awe-inspiring that brought a lump to my throat was the Lancaster (My grandfather was a bomb-aimer in top-secret WWII 'flying cigar' missions over Germany). That was just the loudest prop aircraft I have ever heard - made the windows rattle. Gorgeous.

Anyway, I digress at a tangent, and I must away to bed! G'night all!


reply posted on 18-1-2010 @ 07:34 PM by dogsounds
reply to post by ChemicalSubstance



Interesting. If you ever get chance, can you take a picture and post it? It would be fascinating to see if it is the same one!

If it's him...wonder what the heck he was doing? Checking up on the missus?
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