Israel should be tried for war crimes

reply to post by mattpryor


I agree personal attacks should not be done, wonder why m******l doesn't understand that. The starting post in any thread is always with an attack -" Predictably there are the usual foaming at the mouth hate purveyors here". Favourite word "frothing" lol!

Anyway, on topic yes Israel should be tried for war crimes in International Criminal Court and so should be Hamas, as per GoldStone Report.

[edit on 22-1-2010 by December_Rain]

[edit on 22-1-2010 by December_Rain]

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
america supports their terrorist behavior so sadly i dont see this happening.

no one went after russia during its afghanistan war for the things they did there either....or what the afghaies did to russians and we supported them as well...

so in a nut shell there is no nation on this earth nor any power that is going to do anything about it... we can all stand around and cry about it and that is all we are ever going to be able to do...

so we should just accept that things happen in war zones.... because no one is going to find a better way to kill or to win a war....

reply to post by December_Rain


Goldstone Report says no such thing. The Goldstone report calls on Hamas and the IDF to conduct credible investigations into allegations. Which the IDF is doing.

Not that those who have already judged them guilty will pay any attention or believe it, so what's the point? People either accept that the IDF is like any other modern Western army and avoids civilian casualties where possible, which in my view is all one can really ask, or they are convinced that Israelis are the worst kind of evil and IDF soldiers take great pleasure in murdering babies etc. There's no in-between, and in the end it all comes down to which side of the fence you sit on. Everything else is pointless.

It's a great shame that the UNHRC presented their resolution based on the Goldstone Report but omitted the calls for Hamas to investigate itself. Yet another demonstration of the fact that the UNHRC has one purpose and that is to harass Israel.

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by bigyin

 

Personal attacks to intimidate and silence people and stifle debate.

Give it a rest, it just makes your own position look weaker.

Where have I attacked anyone, i'm only repeating what mmichael has said.

Go ahead and give us your explanation for his statements.

This will be fun.

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by December_Rain

 

Goldstone Report says no such thing. The Goldstone report calls on Hamas and the IDF to conduct credible investigations into allegations. Which the IDF is doing.

• In view of the gravity of the violations of international human rights and humanitarian law and possible war crimes and crimes against humanity that it has reported, the Mission recommends that the United Nations Human Rights Council request the United Nations Secretary-General to bring this report to the attention of the United Nations Security
A/HRC/12/48 page 546
Council under Art. 99 of the Charter of the United Nations so that the Security Council may consider action according to the relevant Mission’s recommendations below.

Source: www2.ohchr.org...

If both Hamas and Israel does not conduct investigation properly and prosecute accordingly, the matter will goto International Criminal Court.

It's a great shame that the UNHRC presented their resolution based on the Goldstone Report but omitted the calls for Hamas to investigate itself. Yet another demonstration of the fact that the UNHRC has one purpose and that is to harass Israel.

The report and press release by UNHRC has clearly mentioned both Israel and Hamas. Perhaps a better question would be why Israel refused to cooperate with Investigative team? What does the occupying power had to hide if it did nothing wrong? Now getting caught on the crimes it cannot say the team was biased. Why Israel did not cooperated and helped investigative team? Why not tell your side of story?

reply to post by December_Rain


Two reasons:

A) Because the politicians involved assumed that the report would slam them whether they cooperated or not (they were right), and if they cooperated it would add legitimacy.

B) Because there was a change of government at the time and they were unable to launch a strategy for dealing with it.

Surely you must know the answers already, it was in the news if you cared to look.

Originally posted by bigyin
Where have I attacked anyone, i'm only repeating what mmichael has said.

Go ahead and give us your explanation for his statements.

This will be fun.

I rarely look back at old message. Myself and I would say many others like mattpryor go to great length to make it clear we are not trying to criticize all people of the Muslim faith per se.

Where I may differ is that I do not put up with the many ill-concealed covert attack Jews as people. It's inescapable with new threads constantly created on any perceived transgression results in and the same condemnation of Israel, the shared blame attached to supposed Zionists inferring Jews in America and their sympathizers.

I don't want to see anyone at war with another country. I know Israel does not want that. But the threat is constant. And the hostility generated is almost invariably one-sided.

I strongly feel the Muslim world, Palestinians in particular, get a raw deal in they type of leaders they have and their misguided aggressive policies collectively.

This needs to be discussed, but rarely is around here. I've watched this forum become a haven for outright racists, specifically Jew haters, who largely go unchallenged. They spread false information and malign the Jews of the world at every opportunity with it.

There is never an attempt to understand why Israel is forced to take such great security measures for the survival of it's people and which sometimes demands strong retaliatory measures.

The constructed narratives of Israel constantly trying to expand it's territory, the US wanting to conquer the Middle East at the behest of Israel, Israel wanting to destroy Iran, are given play as if they're established facts.

They aren't and the people who try to spread these rumours need to be called out.

The double standard of Jews being ripe targets for condemnation but it being intolerable to see Muslims as anything but victims is unreasonable and intellectually dishonest.

For that reason I come in here already annoyed that I’m constantly playing with a stacked deck where the rules keep changing to accommodate one side.

The funniest thing about israel is how its re-vamping its precious image around the world by helping the haitian babies in their make-shift hospitals.

Israel expects us to forget how IDF snipers love to take pot shots at pregnant palestinian women walking down the road with white flags.

I think israel will soon have to make an important decision on whether its a baby killer or a baby saver.

reply to post by merkava


The IDF search and rescue team, along with Israeli medics and their state of the art field hospitals, were present at:

Mexico earthquake, 1985
Armenia earthquake, 1988
Argentina bombing, 1994
Kenya embassy bombing, 1998
Greece earthquake, 1999
Turkey earthquake, 1999
India earthquake, 2001

And many more that I can't be bothered to type out. You can read about it on this evil Zionist propaganda site if you can bring yourself to.

Of course all this was PR as well. Nothing to do with good old humanitarianism.

In fact the Zionists probably caused all those disasters just so they could look good eh? Or steal some kids' spleens?

Your cynicism and negativity really brings me down, I have to say. I'm glad that you can find the situation in Haiti funny though, I don't.

[edit on 22-1-2010 by mattpryor]

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by merkava

 

Your cynicism and negativity really brings me down, I have to say. I'm glad that you can find the situation in Haiti funny though, I don't.

I find the IDF re-vamping its baby killing image funny, not the earthquake.

Even if we agree on the fact that israel is just tryna help as usual, than why is it everytime i turn onto a news channel, the reporters never miss mentioning hi-tech israeli gear and doctors treating babies when many other countries are putting alot of effort in too.Showing the same IDF doc treating babies non-stop on every channel makes me think of an agenda being cooked up.

reply to post by merkava


I don't know, but it seems that Israel can just do no right with some people.

If it's bad news they get crucified. If it's good news it's propaganda.

For a country with a population smaller than New York City, they sure gets lots of people talking, I will say that.

reply to post by mattpryor


Although I rarely agree with you, I've got to agree with you on that point. I am of opinion that Israel has committed way too many war crimes, but that doesn't mean no good people live in Israel. Nothing wrong with being skeptical, but this is plain paranoia with some people that is getting fully out of control.

Sure think the worst, but I seriously cannot see how people see Israeli medical help as a bad thing. Get real and stop being so biased.

reply to post by Mdv2


Your gracious agreement is very much appreciated.

I love Holland too by the way, not just Israel

reply to post by mmiichael


I don't normally bother discussing anything with you because you are so one sided.

Me, I'm not on one side or the other, I'm here to find possible solutions to the problem.

I realise that that is very unlikely given the situation, many others have tried and failed.

What you do not appear to get is that there is a difference between supporting Israel, supporting Jews, and supporting Zionism ... they are 3 different things.

I support Israel and I support Jews .... I don't support Zionism.

For me zionism is what has caused the problem we see today. I think that an Israel could exist, different to the one we see.

In that respect I want to discuss ideas that could lead to finding a peaceful solution.

In my view people like you are so convinced that people like me are just anti semites you dont stop to consider anything we say, you just throw it out immediatley and start calling everyone nasty names.

Why not admit you are blinkered by your hate of anyone who wont support your beliefs.

My belief is that if Israel carries on the way its going it will self destruct.

I don't think that good, I think thats bad. Does that make me anti semite ?

And I know I'm not alone in my position, there are countless jews both in Israel and elsewhere who agree with me ... perhaps you are the anti semite.

reply to post by mmiichael


I am not all knowing.

I am who I am.

I am a person of love and fairness who thinks all are created equal, jew or gentile.

Have you ever considered the idea of fairness? Without pulling a reference of hate to justify why you are unfair?

The state of our world is the sum total of all human interaction. We all must change to make a change.

AAC

reply to post by Mdv2


Agree with you 100% eventhough I am very critical of Israeli policies and it's Govt. but it's cool if they are helping out in Haiti genuinely but I also feel at the same time using this opportunity to revamp it's image. Nothing wrong with that however.

Originally posted by bigyin
Me, I'm not on one side or the other, I'm here to find possible solutions to the problem.

I realise that that is very unlikely given the situation, many others have tried and failed.

What you do not appear to get is that there is a difference between supporting Israel, supporting Jews, and supporting Zionism ... they are 3 different things.

I support Israel and I support Jews .... I don't support Zionism.

For me zionism is what has caused the problem we see today. I think that an Israel could exist, different to the one we see.

In that respect I want to discuss ideas that could lead to finding a peaceful solution.

In my view people like you are so convinced that people like me are just anti semites you dont stop to consider anything we say, you just throw it out immediatley and start calling everyone nasty names.

Why not admit you are blinkered by your hate of anyone who wont support your beliefs.

My belief is that if Israel carries on the way its going it will self destruct.

I don't think that good, I think thats bad. Does that make me anti semite ?

And I know I'm not alone in my position, there are countless jews both in Israel and elsewhere who agree with me ... perhaps you are the anti semite.

Saying there are people who agree with a position is some kind of reinforcement of legitimacy is a common argument. I could say abuse, torture, murder are justified - and there are many serial killers, sadists, psychopaths who agree with me. So it must be right.

I don't feel the need to justify myself ever in that I have spent my adult life interfacing with people of every background and belief system in a fair an equitable manner.

But when I come to this type of thread created to provoke condemnation of Jews, but in the couched language of criticism of Israeli government policies, the rules of procedure are very different.

Zionist is an 19th Century ideology which worked towards the creation of a homeland for Jews around the world focusing on the Biblical region of Jerusalem and adjacent territory.

Through historical events with the Ottoman Empire being disbanded after WWI and control being placed in the hands of Britain, the creation of a Jewish occurred in 1948. Zionism is largely a historical movement now. Those sympathetic to Israel's very existence are often labeled Zionist. Implicit in the label is that Israel has no right to exist and those who allow it are furthering an illegitimate cause.

And as everyone who has ever dealt with hard core racists and thier literature realizes, Zionist is just a current politically correct term to identify Jews or those who are sympathetic to them.

There are a few reasonable open-minded people on this forum. But to be frank, the level of knowledge and insight on these discussions is more like arguments with teenage skinheads than political debate.

The most outrageous hate propaganda and distorted information is routinely paraded around as documentation and proof. Outright false information, like Mossad planning and executing the 9/11 attacks, are put forward uncontested.

With all due respect, though I enjoy debating points of history with people, my I apply different rules in shouting matches with people who display malicious agendas and no ability to reason or analyze information put before them.

I only type first drafts for messages here - so hope what I have just typed conveys a fair and intelligible response to your remarks.


M










[edit on 22-1-2010 by mmiichael]

reply to post by mmiichael



No I'm afraid you have failed miserably. None of your post makes any sense at all... and simply reminds us why discussion with your kind is futile.

If you have to delve into ancient history to justify yourself well thats prretty sad. People are living in the here and now.

Try and get yourself up to date with current events instead of living in the past.

Originally posted by mmiichael
Implicit in the label is that Israel has no right to exist and those who allow it are furthering an illegitimate cause.

I agree with you that Israel has a right to exist. It has proved it's worth by being a fundamentally 'good' country. Human rights and development far exceeds the arab nations. This is all irrelevant to the topic, however.

Israeli leaders commit grievous crimes against humanity through their tools the IDF and Mossad. Why is that so hard to accept? Simple reason please.

Originally posted by bigyin

No I'm afraid you have failed miserably. None of your post makes any sense at all... and simply reminds us why discussion with your kind is futile.

If you have to delve into ancient history to justify yourself well thats prretty sad. People are living in the here and now.

Try and get yourself up to date with current events instead of living in the past.

I guess I failed, sigh. Someone on the Internet says so.

I find reading comprehension pretty low here. About 3-400 words max before you lose your readers.

You may have missed an observation in the previous message - discussing complexities of Middle East history, international politics, Muslim world foreign policy etc - difficult in this environment.

Sort of like trying to have a philosophy debate at a skinhead meeting.