Antisemitisme vs. freedom of speech

I am concerned about a issue that has been rising. In countries all across Europe we see a rising trend of speaking out against Muslims and their religion. All kinds of restrictions are laid upon this group under the motto of "freedom of speech".

"Muslims are welcome in Europe if, and only if, they stop behaving like Muslims" is considered a normal remark and i guess some of the people on here will even agree with this statement.

Now if i were to apply the same argumentation to an entirly different group of people, the image seems to change. Let's take Jewish people, they make for a nice example, considering their past in Europe.

"Jews are welcome in Europe if, and only if, they stop behaving like Jews"......now that remark will certainly give you trouble in almost every part of the western world.

So what's up? Why is the one remark considered freedom of speech while the other is anti-Semitic?

The quality of a democracy can be measured. Not by the majority getting what it wants but in the way the minority is respected!! If, for certain groups, specials rules are applied then the limits of democracy are reached.

Are we so blind that we don't see what WE are destroying??

Peace

[edit on 16/1/2010 by operation mindcrime]

Nobody? Oh well at least one agrees. Thanks for the star and flag.....

Really appreciate it.

All i am saying is, be carefull with whom you think you hate. Somebody with a different agenda might want you to think this way....

Peace

reply to post by operation mindcrime


Prickly situation aye?


I'm not Antisemitic and I'm all for free speech. I do feel however that your post seems to be making some pretty broad strokes. Whether there is some Anti Muslim/Jew sentiment that shouldn't really matter. What should matter is how these groups handle themselves when they come into conflict with their host countries and the indigenous populace.

Immigration seems to be the latest issue in Europe. The US was built on the immigrant. Making room for other cultures has to be done carefully and with respect. This does not mean however that the "locals" have to change their set way of life to accommodate the new comer. This would not be an issue if the recent "Immigrant" brought with them their finer better qualities of their cultures and heritage and left behind the less desirable ideas and beliefs that made them immigrate in the first place.

Many here at ATS who know me know that I'm far from being a fanboy of either Tehran or Tel Aviv. But this does not mean I dislike Jews or Persians. On the contrary they are both ancient and if they both pulled their heads out of their backsides they could help solve most of the problems in the ME.

As far as the recent issues in Europe. [Since that seems to be your focus] Recently the Swiss voted by popular ballet to ban the minarets from places of Islamic worship. This touched off a firestorm of claims and counter claims of discrimination. IMHO the Swiss were just preserving the look and feel of being Swiss. [They were not preventing Masques from being built or banning the religion of Islam.]

The EU with it's vast diversity in population should be able to accommodate both.

An observation.

Antisemitism vs. freedom of speech

In the end it's simply a case of perception.

[edit on 16-1-2010 by SLAYER69]

I see your point, and of course it seems wrong that it would be O.K. to say it to one group, but be punished somehow for saying it about another group. Europe (and the world in general) is a strange place at times. Take the Roma people for instance. There is so much outright racism going on toward the Roma in Europe, but few do anything to change it.

If anyone believes that peace on earth and the abolishment of racism is possible as long as all these different racial/cultural/religious groups exist, they're smoking something strong. Some cultures are just too different. One may justify something that the other absolutely loathes.

It's simple. As long as one group is afraid of another they will dislike each other. As long as one group presents a threat to another, they will see each other as enemies. It's a basic survival instinct going back millions of years.

During Hitler's time people believed that the Jews were a threat to their prosperity and a reason for why people were suffering. They were led to believe that since the Jews owned many banks and shops, they controlled their economy. They felt that one way to take back control of their lives and countries was to either relocate them somewhere else, or exterminate them.

During our time we've had a few terrorist attacks, all believed to be perpetrated by Muslims. Since people are afraid and have been led to believe that the Muslim religion teaches violence against all non-Muslims, naturally they react with discrimination against that particular group. Since some extreme Muslims have expressed that their life's mission is to spread all over the world, continue to practice their faith and slowly convert the rest of the world to the Muslim religion (forcing the populace to live under Sharia law) it is not surprising that people are afraid of the large influx of Muslims into their own countries. They feel that their culture, beliefs and laws are threatened by this group, and they react to it. There's also that little thing in the Koran about Muslims being allowed to lie to the "infidels" to get their way (I could be wrong, but that is something I've heard mentioned), so this makes it very difficult for some non-Muslims to trust the words and actions of Muslims. People are afraid of trusting Muslims and their true intentions within their country.

Is it right to mistreat people of different religions or race based on the actions of a few? Of course not. However, human nature doesn't make it easy not to. When we are hurt or we recognize a threat, we try to either a.) stay as far from it as possible, b.) push it away with threatening actions, or c.) exterminate it.

I don't know how to change this in everyone. I only know what is in my own power. Maybe both groups would have to convince the other that they are not a threat to each other, and punish those within their own groups who perpetrate hate crimes against the other group. They have to prove to each other that they have each other's best interest at heart. Even these actions wouldn't completely eliminate strife between different groups, but it sure as hell would make it better.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Well-said! I agree, and since I am an immigrant myself, (I've lived in three different countries so far) I feel I can offer my opinion on that as well. There are some immigrants who come to the United States (for instance) and do not wish to assimilate. They do not bother to learn the native language for example, especially if they live in a community where their fellow countrymen chose to come together. Some expect the Americans to speak their language and they feel entitled to Government aid and the like, yet they do not bother to learn about American history or about American customs. They will fly their own flags, or put them on their car,... and while I have nothing against cultural identity it seems to me a little disrespectful to come to a different country, use it's resources, and express this strange pride in the very country they escaped in order to lead a better life. This makes no sense to me.

Of course it can also be argued that everyone in the world is an immigrant, or at least the son, granddaughter, or a great, great grandson of an immigrant. The British, Spanish, French, Russians, Chinese, Austrians, Hungarians, Persians, Italians, Germans and countless others have imposed their culture on other nations over the centuries, so everyone is guilty of not assimilating to some degree. Our current borders are not permanent, and never have been. Who knows, maybe the U.S.A will someday become a Chinese colony, and the way the British forced the Native Americans to speak English, so will Chinese become our first or second language

I see where you are coming from, but I think there is a reason why Muslims and Jews are treated differently in that respect.

Christianity, Islam and Judaism share many similarities between them. However, Christianity and Judaism share more in common than either one does with Islam. Especially the ideas of "Christian Law" and "Jewish Law" - they are very similar in terms of modern political and social norms. Islam on the other hand is very different in these regards.

But I agree that the rise in Islamophbia over the last few years is sad. People are falling into the same traps of the past. People tend to forget that many Muslims that come to the West have done so to escape the negative aspects of Sharia Law. Yes they do have a responsibility to integrate and assimilate, but there is nothing wrong with them wanting to practice their religious beliefs and customs. Remember that the freedom to speak our minds and practice our beliefs is what separates us in the West from most other cultures across the globe.

[edit on 16/1/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by operation mindcrime


I personaly think their is a huge difference between Muslims and Jews in your opening premise.. consider the amount of time it has taken Jews to be accepted in Europe as a whole..

For example, King William 1st (Guillaume le Bâtard) encouraged Jews to come to England during his reign from 1066 and yet it took some 600+ years for them to get a certain degree of rights.. those years were pretty turbulent at times but led to a degree of smoothing out the cultural differences and the ability to live side by side.

en.wikipedia.org...

Take my home town, we have Synagogues older than Roman Catholic Churches..

Even now the Roman Catholic Church protest traditions that exist in my part of the UK, which they want changed as they find elements of those traditions offensive, some may even consider them a hate crime.

Now that ping pong match has been running for the last few hundred years, so I very much doubt that a resolution will be found any time soon.

So on that last example, should one cultures traditions be suspended or changed to suit someone elses beliefs?

For me this is where compromise, accomodation and time comes into play.. but who compromises? who accomodates? where are the lines drawn? are all things that I personally think will take time to resolve.

Actually you are wrong. Millions of Muslims have been welcomed into Europe by various countries, either as refugees fleeing the oppression that most Muslim states infict upon their populations, economic migrants, "joining family", or as obligations under some far gone colonial concession.

In recent times, Europe has become more aware of the problems of integrating a block of people who (in very general terms) do not want to be integrated and have not willingly joined the "spirit" of the nation that has adopted them.

The Jewish factor is not worth bothering with as few Jews migrate to Europe and in the context of the wider Europe, Jewish communities are outnumbered many-fold by Muslims.

Muslims are welcome in Europe and have been welcome in the past - the statistics bear that out, but the days of the "open door" are passing and most Europeans probably welcome that fact, after all Europe is "Europe", with its own traditions, culture and worldview.

The quality of democracy is measured by people being democratic and that does mean the majority get what they want.

Regards

Originally posted by paraphi
The Jewish factor is not worth bothering with as few Jews migrate to Europe and in the context of the wider Europe, Jewish communities are outnumbered many-fold by Muslims.

Well no wonder there is so much confusion.
That's a great myopic 20th and 21st century view of the Jew and Europe.


The Library can be your friend.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Thanks for the reply Slayer!! ((And everybody else.) (I have to read faster....!!))

I forgot all about this thread (don't create threads on a Saturday night!!) but going over the replies, in retrospect it might have been better to use an other example then the Jewish people to make a point.

A better title for this thread should have been: " Discrimination vs. freedom of speech"....

The freedom of speech is an important human right. But the law against discrimination is of equal importance. Where one begins and the other stops is for many people different. This difference in opinion leads to conflict.
When is one expressing his opinion and when is one discriminating. In order to discriminate, somebody has to feel discriminated. So it seem it is not so much a fact but more an opinion whether one is discriminating.

So the example given in the OP might well have been :" "Americans are welcome in Europe if, and only if, they stop behaving like Americans".

Is this discrimination or freedom of speech?

For the record, i believe that the above statement is discriminating because with this statement i assume all Americans are the same, which would make me the same as every other European. And that, i am not!!

It just concerns me that with a statement like this:" "Muslims are welcome in Europe if, and only if, they stop behaving like Muslims", it could actually win you an election now a days.........

Peace

[edit on 21/1/2010 by operation mindcrime]

I see, and have been shown, no reason to view or treat Jews any differently than anyone else. There really is no more to it than that.

We allow the behavior of low stock intellectuals and the lowest common denominator attempting this sort of nonsense all the time. I simply dismiss it as the foolishness that it is as soon as it comes up.

I see no reason to limit speech, be it hate speech, love speech, offensive speech, or even bigoted speech.

Europe seems to disagree, but freedom can be scary.

I think that if a country agrees that you move in, the least you can do is not offend the laws of that country.

That is why I am uneasy about muslims moving into countries and insisting on being veiled. Let them live in muslim countries if they want to be veiled.

If I moved to a muslim country and wore skimpy clothing I would probably be raped, lashed and killed.

I do not want to offend anyone, but the truth always offends.

Originally posted by learningtofly
I think that if a country agrees that you move in, the least you can do is not offend the laws of that country.

That is why I am uneasy about muslims moving into countries and insisting on being veiled. Let them live in muslim countries if they want to be veiled.

What should you care if they want to veil themselves? Mind you, I think Islam is a stupid religion, but I'm no fashion police.

What a petty dispute.

If I moved to a muslim country and wore skimpy clothing I would probably be raped, lashed and killed.

I do not want to offend anyone, but the truth always offends.

Truth is subject to change, so try not to monopolize all that truth you hold.

Thanks for the reply KrazyJethro. (SSX fan??)

Like i stated in the above post. Jewish people might not have been the best choice for my issue to come across because i realize that this might be a bit touchy for some.

We allow the behavior of low stock intellectuals and the lowest common denominator attempting this sort of nonsense all the time. I simply dismiss it as the foolishness that it is as soon as it comes up.

You dismiss it because you can. Unfortunately it's the majority that gets the final say in the matter.

I see no reason to limit speech, be it hate speech, love speech, offensive speech, or even bigoted speech.

Even if this "speech" crosses the boundaries of discrimination?

Europe seems to disagree, but freedom can be scary.

Only scary when this freedom allows the idea that somehow certain people with certain ethical backgrounds can be placed in certain groups and subsequently can be judged upon.

Peace

reply to post by KrazyJethro


It is not a petty fashion dispute.

It is not a meaningless discussion.

I made a serious point.

Originally posted by learningtofly
It is not a petty fashion dispute.

It is not a meaningless discussion.

I made a serious point.

That's not a serious point, and if you think it is I'd invite some additional explanation as to why.

What freedom loving person would not fight back against something as stupid as banning veils?

reply to post by KrazyJethro

What freedom loving person would not fight back against something as stupid as banning veils?

Can i use that as my new signature?

Peace

reply to post by KrazyJethro


You have not addressed my point about what I would have to wear in muslim country.

Veils cover a lot of things including terrorists.

I ask you this: If an American person went to an airport check-in wearing a veil, what would happen?

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
Thanks for the reply KrazyJethro. (SSX fan??)

Sure, but SSX? Not catching the reference. Not a big snowboarding fan.

Like i stated in the above post. Jewish people might not have been the best choice for my issue to come across because i realize that this might be a bit touchy for some.

Meh, touchy people are emotional people. They count for less than squat in discussions of rationality, reason, and logic. Feel free to let er rip.

You dismiss it because you can. Unfortunately it's the majority that gets the final say in the matter.

Of course I can, and do frequently. The majority has no more say than anyone else. I'd suggest that the more something is held to be true, the less likely it is.

Anyway, I suppose my point was that we do not scorn and ridicule openly those who use these tactics.

Even if this "speech" crosses the boundaries of discrimination?

Yes, even if it destroys the boundary. I see no need to limit speech by the government.

Only scary when this freedom allows the idea that somehow certain people with certain ethical backgrounds can be placed in certain groups and subsequently can be judged upon.

Peace

Makes no difference to me. Personally, I'd rather have it out in the open than lurking in the dark corners and behind people's backs.

People naturally judge, catalog, and create patterns. It's going to happen. For this reason, we have a system that disallows majority oppression of minority groups (supposedly).

Originally posted by learningtofly
You have not addressed my point about what I would have to wear in muslim country.

This was only half your point, and I've repeatedly condemned Islam and the nations that governmentally front it's teachings as backward and oppressive nations worthy of scorn in the highest degree.

As a free American, I only speak as such. Trying to compare us with them is folly in the extreme and is no justification for stupid actions.

Veils cover a lot of things including terrorists.

Perhaps, but covering one's face isn't the worst of our problems. Have any of the terrorists attacks happened while they wore women's clothing? Do you think any Islamic fundamentalist would wear women's clothing considering their views on females?

I doubt it, but even if they did we have far bigger problems than that potential issue.

I ask you this: If an American person went to an airport check-in wearing a veil, what would happen?

They would be asked to verify their identity and would be watched more closely. This has nothing to do with wearing veils on a day to day basis.

Also, I would suggest that terrorists would NOT be trying to look more Islamic, especially in an airport.