Underground Egypt-Gaza tunnel dubbed 'wall of death'

Originally posted by Flakey
What do you suggest we do? What are you doing? What can be done?

There is lot one can do such as write to their city legislator and boycott Israel and companies supporting the Apartheid.

Originally posted by dereks
The reason for the tunnels is to smuggle in weapons, ammo, explosives and rocket parts etc. used to attack Israel, which is why Hamas is getting upset by the barrier.

If they simply stopped attacking Israel then the border would be open. But Hamas cares nothing for the Palestinian people, prefering to use them as pawns and shields whilst they attack Israel

The reason the tunnels were made because because of blockage and illegal occupation of Palestinian land. These tunnels supply the daily needs of people such as food, milk, medicine, building material etc. If Israel simply removed it's illegal occupation there would be no need for any tunnels.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


I already said Israel is the only Apartheid state..no point repeating it, for the rest of your post my reply is here.

reply to post by Kandinsky


The only thing different is Mexico is not surrounded by walls. Any aid, food material and relief is not blocked, and Mexicans are not solely dependent on aid for survival. Noone is coming and bulldozing their houses and stealing their land. So it's silly to compare Mexico and Gaza.

Originally posted by Jakes51It is the job of the elected leaders in Israel to prevent violent incursions into the country by Hamas or any terrorist groups. However, there is a flip-side to that coin as well. The Palestinian leadership led by Hamas has a solemn duty to ensure and preserve the safety and survival of their people as well.

Was it not the job of Nazi Government to look after German people? So why are they criticized today? In view of Nazi German govt. was doing everything good for it's people. The answer to these questions is my reply to you.

Right now, the Hamas leadership are abysmal failures with their rocket attacks and hard-line leanings. Their people are being starved, maimed, and killed. All this to prove a political point with Israel? If the people of Gaza want some semblance of human dignity, they must run the leadership out of office!

After such action is accomplished, form a provisional government or transitional government with fair community leaders until proper elections can be held, and open dialogue with Israel. In accordance with the dialogue, a seize fire or truce would have to be met by both sides. Hamas won't go without a fight and civil war may ensue in Gaza? But, something needs to be done, because I don't see Hamas loosening their stance with Israel. However, I may be clutching for straws, because it is the Middle East we are talking about. However, the killing on both sides has to stop, before any humanitarian overtures can take place in Gaza.

Nope, all this to maintain "resistance" against illegal occupation. When someone comes over to kill you and bulldoze your home you do not invite them in but resist against such criminals and that is what Hamas is doing. I do not agree with their uses of children's but from their point of view it makes sense when Israel is effectively "cleaning" all young people there is no population left to resist except kids, women and old people. Still I condemn them for use of their children in their resistance.

reply to post by December_Rain


Great conversation.
December Rain:
Blockade is bad. Israel is bad. Egypt is bad.
Zeroknowledge:
No rockets - no blockade. Hamas is bad.
December Rain:
Israel is bad.
Zeroknowledge:
Yes,yes. Ok. Israel is bad. Hamas stops rockets - no blockade, right?
December Rain:
Israel is very very bad.
Tunnels are very very good.

I am not speaking about how good or bad Israel is. Nor i argue about tunnels.
All i say - and you seemingly ignore - is that blockade started because of something and stopping this something woult stop the blockade. And blockade we both consider bad,right?
If Israel will allow free flow of people and merchandise - rockets will not stop. Just as they did not stop after Israel withdrew from Gaza. Even if it is the right thing to do as far as people of Gaza are concerned. But if Hamas would stop the fire and make the exchange of prisoner(s) - which is right thing to do as far as people of Israel are concerned - there will be no excuse/reason/justification of Israeli blockade.
Again, i understand that a post without some negative word near Israel is not considered a post by all kind of people due to all kind of rea$ons. However it is not the point, the nasty situation is the point.

reply to post by December_Rain

The only thing different is Mexico is not surrounded by walls. Any aid, food material and relief is not blocked, and Mexicans are not solely dependent on aid for survival. Noone is coming and bulldozing their houses and stealing their land. So it's silly to compare Mexico and Gaza.

The journalist, and by proxy me, isn't being 'silly' comparing the Mexican and Gaza tunnels. The only comparison is that the tunnels have a financial motivation. This is factually accurate.

I appreciate you have strong feelings about Gaza and the people stuck there. It's an opinion anyone is entitled too. I'd be careful about taking emphatic sides...nothing in the area is black and white or simplistic.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


From where I see it, it's like this:

Great conversation.
December Rain:
End the illegal occupation and the blockage.
Zeroknowledge:
Hamas is bad
December Rain:
Hamas is resisting against illegal occupation and stealing of land,
Zeroknowledge:
No,Hamas is bad.
December Rain:
Hamas has right to resist against illegal occupation. Israel should remove its blockade and let Gaza operate freely.
Zeroknowledge:
Hamas is bad.

Israel never withdrew completely, the fact Israel is still building illegal settlements upto this today and has project initiated for future to build more illegal settlements on occupied territories. But no they wont return the land back because it's written in a story book the land is their.

Hamas should stop resisting when Israel withdraws to it's original border and return the land it has built settlements on illegally. Israel should return all 6200 children's they have kidnapped and pay compensation of the crimes committed against Palestinian people. Until that happens resistance against Apartheid is no crime.

reply to post by Kandinsky


I did consider financial motive as you stated but the situation in Gaza is out of necessity. There are no jobs for people as all the buildings are destroyed by Israel and which cannot be rebuild because Israeli blockade does not allow reconstruction material to get in.

Yes you can call it sort of black market and yes people who operate the tunnels are making money on the use of tunnels. But the difference is motivation and necessity. If humans could live eating sand Gazans would have done it. But people need food, water, medicine to survive.

reply to post by December_Rain


In response, to your reply about comparing the Israelis to the Nazis. That is quite a stretch, and why I say that, is, the Jews were noncombatants who were rounded up and put in the ghettos. Then the German Jews were German citizens represented by non-other than the German Government at the time which was the unfortunately run by the Nazis and their deadly ideology.

Now, is the blockade in Gaza like the ghettos before the war? I have to say no, because Israeli troops aren't going into Gaza when ever they feel like it to shoot Palestinians, just for the hell of it. If they did, it would be all of over the news! I have only noticed attacks on Gaza as occurring when there was a rocket strike into Israel.

With the Palestinians, they have a government that has full diplomatic rights, unlike the Jews of Europe in Germany before the war. Unfortunately, they have government that refuse to come forth and settle things in a diplomatic capacity.

They are represented by an elected government that advocates violence against the people and policies of another. Therefore, I don't see the comparison between the two, in regards to Israel and Nazi Germany. What do you suppose any nation to do that is constantly being attacked by rockets and suicide bombers? Sit back and allow the bloodletting to continue without responding?

Now, is the blockade harsh and inhumane? Yes, no one is denying that, but is it a necessary alternative? Yes, because if it works, then hopefully, the Palestinian government will come to the table to end the suffering brought on to their people by their inability to play nice and get along, or there will be regime change. Then, hopefully, it will end the violence on both sides.

The Palestinians are suffering, but they need to look no further than the leadership they appointed. Their refusal to sit at the bargaining table has brought peril onto Gaza, and the government mandated violence against civilian population centers in Israel.

Now, in terms of the settlement issue and an illegal occupation, that is another story. However, if any progress on the matter is going to be established, it won't be at the end of a gun. It will be through diplomatic solutions, because the Israelis aren't going anywhere as well as the Palestinians. So, to put it simply, both sides are going to have to get along. That is the only way.

reply to post by Jakes51


Not at all stretch perhaps you are not aware of Armed Jewish resistance fighters during WW2. Not only Jewish there were other armed resistance groups.

[edit on 16-1-2010 by December_Rain]

[edit on 16-1-2010 by December_Rain]

And yes it is ghetto because Israeli forces are doing exactly that

Jan16th
Detainee Seriously Wounded Due To Torture

Jan 15th
PCHR Weekly Report: "7 Palestinians Dead From Israeli Attacks, 8 Wounded"

Jan15th
Demonstrators met with live ammunition in Bil’in Village

Jan 15th
Israeli authorities prevent 17 Palestinians from getting necessary eye surgery

Jan 14th
The Israeli military kidnaps 12 civilians from the West Bank, and settlers destroy cars

Jan 13th
Three injured as soldiers attack farmers in southern West Bank

Jan 12th
Israel's military crack down on nonviolent, anti-wall protest organizers in the West Bank

Jan 12th
Strip Search, Arrest and Car Detonation at Reikhan Barta'a Checkpoint, Jenin

Jan 11th
Soldiers Invade Ramallah, Kidnap a Czech Peace Activist

Jan 11th
One injured three kidnapped during military invasions targeting West Bank areas

Jan 11th
Israel Demolishes 30 Structures Near Nablus

Jan 10th
Two Palestinians Killed As Army Bombards Gaza

Jan 10th
Palestinian Wounded In Israeli Shelling In Gaza

Nothing much..just a normal genocidal week in Gaza.

[edit on 16-1-2010 by December_Rain]

Originally posted by December_Rain
reply to post by Jakes51

 

Not at all stretch perhaps you are not aware of Armed Jewish resistance fighters during WW2. Not only Jewish there were other armed resistance groups.

[edit on 16-1-2010 by December_Rain]

[edit on 16-1-2010 by December_Rain]

Thanks for the link and I am aware of the sporadic uprisings during the war to the brutal treatment of the Jews by the Nazi. But, I think you are failing to see what I am getting at? I was only talking about the German Jews in comparison, and largely it was about the dissolution of civil rights to the Jews residing in Germany.

With Germany in mind, the Jews were governed by whatever faction was in power, as well as, all Germans. They had no government, where as, the Palestinian do, and are essentially a nation within a nation. Therefore, they have a diplomatic capacity to go before the government in Israel or the UN to broker and negotiate a deal, where as, the Jews in Germany did not. So, in that regard, the conflict between Israel are two different animals. Again, thanks for the link.

reply to post by Jakes51


Actually they did goto UN with GoldStone Report but what happens on orders from USA's sugar daddy Israel, USA vetoes the report.

What happened when Fatah president went to UN last time with report? This is what happened

Israel is threatening to kill off a crucial West Bank economic project unless the Palestinian Authority withdraws a request to the International Criminal Court to investigate alleged Israeli crimes during last winter’s Gaza war.

Shalom Kital, an aide to defence minister Ehud Barak, said today that Israel will not release a share of the radio spectrum that has long been sought by the Palestinian Authority to enable the launch of a second mobile telecommunications company unless the PA drops its efforts to put Israeli soldiers and officers in the dock over the Israeli operation.

Source: Israel threatening West Bank Economic project

and what happens because of that

The UN today put off action on a report criticising Israel's actions during the war in Gaza after Palestinian leaders suddenly dropped their support for a resolution, apparently under heavy US pressure.

The decision marked a surprising reversal in the Palestinian position which, until now, had backed the findings of the report by the South African judge Richard Goldstone.

Goldstone accused both Israel and the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas of war crimes during the three-week conflict.

He was particularly critical of Israel, both for its conduct of the war and its continued occupation of Palestinian territory.

The UN human rights council in Geneva had been due to vote today on whether to pass the Goldstone report to the UN security council for further action.

That vote will now be delayed until the council meets next, in March next year.

UN delays action on Gaza war report

and here is what happened when Palestinian democratically elected Govt. tried to seek recognition

Israel on Monday warned Palestinians against seeking recognition of an independent state, while dismissing the move as a political manoeuvre amid frustration over the stalled peace process.

Israel warns Palestinians over seeking recognition

reply to post by Jakes51


Also it's not that United Nations has not passed any laws against that, it has but Israel has continuously broke them:

The consensus view of the international community is that the building of Israeli settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, is illegal under international law, although Israel disputes this.

UN Security council resolutions, including resolutions 446, 452, 465, 471 and 476 which find the settlements to be illegal. The International Court of Justice, has found the settlements to be illegal under international law.

Lets see what each resolution has to state regarding settlement:

Resolution 446 (1979) of 22 March 1979
1. Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;

2. Strongly deplores the failure of Israel to abide by Security Council resolutions 237 (1967) of 14 June 1967, 252 (1968) of 21 May 1968 and 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971 and the consensus statement by the President of the Security Council on 11 November 1976 2/ and General Assembly resolutions 2253 (ES-V) and 2254 (ES-V) of 4 and 14 July 1967, 32/5 of 28 October 1977 and 33/113 of 18 December 1978;

3. Calls once more upon Israel, as the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, to rescind its previous measures and to desist from taking any action which would result in changing the legal status and geographical nature and materially affecting the demographic composition of the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, and, in particular, not to transfer parts of its own civilian population into the occupied Arab territories;

4. Establishes a Commission consisting of three members of the Security Council, to be appointed by the President of the Council after consultations with the members of the Council, to examine the situation relating to settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem;

5. Requests the Commission to submit its report to the Security Council by 1 July 1979;

6. Requests the Secretary-General to provide the Commission with the necessary facilities to enable it to carry out its mission.

7. Decides to keep the situation in the occupied territories under constant and close scrutiny and to reconvene in July 1979 to review the situation in the light of the findings of the Commission.

452, adopted July 20, 1979

It states that "the policy of Israel in establishing settlements in the occupied Arab territories has no legal validity and constitutes a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949" and "calls upon the Government and people of Israel to cease, on an urgent basis, the establishment, construction and planning of settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem."

465, adopted March 1, 1980
Affirming once more that the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949 is applicable to the Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem,

Deploring the decision of the Government of Israel to officially support Israeli settlement in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967,

Deeply concerned over the practices of the Israeli authorities in implementing that settlement policy in the occupied Arab territories, including Jerusalem, and its consequences for the local Arab and Palestinian population,

Taking into account the need to consider measures for the impartial protection of private and public land and property, and water resources,

Bearing in mind the specific status of Jerusalem and, in particular, the need for protection and preservation of the unique spiritual and religious dimension of the Holy Places in the city,

Drawing attention to the grave consequences which the settlement policy is bound to have on any attempt to reach a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East,

Resolution 471 (1980) of 5 June 1980
Reaffirming the applicability of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War to the Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem,

Recalling also its resolutions 468 (1980) and 469 (1980),

Reaffirming its resolution 465 (1980), by which the Security Council determined "that all measures taken by Israel to change the physical character, demographic composition, institutional structure or status of the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, or any part thereof have no legal validity and that Israel's policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants in those territories constitute a flagrant violation of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East" and strongly deplored the "continuation and persistence of Israel in pursuing those policies and practices",

Shocked by the assassination attempts against the Mayors of Nablus, Ramallah and Al Bireh,

Deeply concerned that the Jewish settlers in the occupied Arab territories are allowed to carry arms, thus enabling them to perpetrate crimes against the civilian Arab population,

1. Condemns the assassination attempts against the Mayors of Nablus, Ramallah and Al Bireh and calls for the immediate apprehension and prosecution of the perpetrators of these crimes;

2. Expresses deep concern that Israel, as the occupying Power, has failed to provide adequate protection to the civilian population in the occupied territories in conformity with the provisions of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War;

3. Calls upon the Government of Israel to provide the victims with adequate compensation for the damages suffered as a result of these crimes;

4. Calls again upon the government of Israel to respect and to comply with the provisions of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, as well as with the relevant resolutions of the Security Council;

5. Calls once again upon all States not to provide Israel with any assistance to be used specifically in connexion with settlements in the occupied territories;

6. Reaffirms the overriding necessity to end the prolonged occupation of Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem;

7. Requests the Secretary-General to report on the implementation of the present resolution.

More resolutions regarding Israel can be found here:
SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS - 1980

reply to post by December_Rain


In response, to the sources you presented. I am noticing a stark similarity in where the news originated from. Now, show me those same stories in say the the New York Times, Washington Post, the Guardian, BBC, and other news sources and on a grand-scale of wanton violence. However, with those news stories coming from one location, I have to look at it a little skewered.

If you can show me the mass murder like what was done in the Second World War by the Nazis, and show me concrete proof that it is indeed the policy of the Israeli government, regarding the Palestinians, then I will take notice. However, I gather from what you have presented, a slight political bias in the content. I am not calling it "propaganda," but it has faint semblance of something?

Now, let's cut to the chase. Is the treatment of the Palestinians harsh? Yes, it is, but so is blowing up a passenger bus with woman and children. Not to mention, using another human being as cannon-fodder to perform such a task. However, the Palestinians are not getting anywhere with the approach they are taking. They have been fighting like this since 1948 when Israel became a state. I am in agreement with you that the treatment of Palestinian is Gaza is harsh, but I wouldn't crop that treatment with the likes of the Nazis. I just don't see the comparison. . .

if you're speaking of the tunnel under the foot of the sphinx do not open it, the dead will walk.

[edit on 16-1-2010 by SpiritHipHop]

reply to post by Jakes51


I would like to know how Hamas would act in the footsteps of Israel, and how Israel would act in the footsteps of Hamas. Let's turn the tables around.

Please explain.

Originally posted by December_Rain

Hamas should stop resisting when Israel withdraws to it's original border

You appear ignorant of the Hamas Charter
"On the Destruction of Israel:
-----------------------------
'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' "

So Hamas will accept nothing but the destruction of Israel...

and pay compensation of the crimes committed against Palestinian people.

What about Hamas paying compensation to Israel....

reply to post by Jakes51


Please don't be ridiculous, when peace activist and lawmakers are not freely allowed inside Gaza/West Bank what chance do international journalist have? Just do a random search and you will find numerous links of journalist killed by IDF, peace activist crushed by Israeli bulldozers.