Norway spiral in China today

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posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 01:55 PM
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reply to post by JimOberg
 


Are you sure it isn't you has gotten off track?

Thanks for an intelligent reply. I would say we are getting to be old friends.

From my understanding a missile and a launch vehicle are as different as a sports car and a semi-truck, but an ICBM would be more like a monster truck, and a medium range missile more like an Indy Car.

I didn't mention bow shock because I don't think anyone is trying to claim that this spiral is created by bow shock, or the exhaust plume, but by the exhaust.

During the right sunlight the exhaust plume is probably very visible, but not 500 miles away.

As the evidence I have provided shows, at 500 miles away, a shuttle sized rocket would look like a large star, an ICBM like a small fast moving star or meteor, and I think a medium range rocket would probably be invisible at that distance, which means it is highly unlikely that we are seeing the a rocket in these spiral photos, at least not the ones over Norway, and probably not the ones over China.

This leaves the possibility of what these spirals could be wide open to speculation. I favor the plasma theory, or something like the Hessdalen phenomenon.




posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 02:39 PM
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The 2nd pic looks like the South African "meteor" and the first is a little similar to the norway spiral but without the spiral!



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
During the right sunlight the exhaust plume is probably very visible, but not 500 miles away.

As the evidence I have provided shows, at 500 miles away, a shuttle sized rocket would look like a large star, an ICBM like a small fast moving star or meteor, and I think a medium range rocket would probably be invisible at that distance, which means it is highly unlikely that we are seeing the a rocket in these spiral photos, at least not the ones over Norway, and probably not the ones over China.


You have provided no evidence, merely fictitious factoids from your own mind, which you have imagined must be true. That should be clear to most folks following this exchange.

I'm guessing here -- please provide direct testimony -- but it seems that you personally have never eyeballs seen a rocket launch of any kind from any distance under any illumination conditions -- but you're still an expert on what they MUST look like? Please clarify.



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
During the right sunlight the exhaust plume is probably very visible, but not 500 miles away.

really?


how about this:



Explanation: What kind of cloud is that? Last week, a sunset rocket launch lit up the sky and was photographed by sky enthusiasts as far as hundreds of miles away. The lingering result was a photogenic rocket plume. Not everyone who saw the resulting plume knew its cause to be a Minotaur rocket launched from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, USA. The cloud was visible after sunset on 22 September. Fuel particles and water droplets expelled from the rocket swirled in the winds of the upper atmosphere, creating an expanding helix. The noctilucent plume was so high that it still reflected sunlight, where lower clouds in the foreground appeared dark. The above image also captured part of the plume reflecting sunlight as a rainbow or a colorful iridescent cloud. Below the launch plume is the planet Venus.



source: www.astronet.ru...


or maybe this:




Second by second, the needle tip of the rocket plume accelerated southward, edging beneath brilliant Venus, with the rippling plume billowing out behind it. I've never seen anything like it. I was most surprised by how fast the entire structure expanded. The launch was at least 400 miles away, so it absolutely boggled my mind that I was actually seeing what I was seeing.


source: www.perezmedia.net...



or ... this:




This time exposure is a good example of the distance from which twilight launches are sometimes visible. It shows the fourth stage exhaust plume from a Minotaur rocket more than 1,500 statute miles (2,414 kilometers) away. Lift-off occurred long after sunset and the ground was in darkness, but the missile had climbed high enough to be illuminated by sunlight when the webmaster took this photo from Ventura County, California.


source: www.spacearchive.info...

at this last source are listed the factors influencing the visibility. Read it.






[edit on 18/1/10 by depthoffield]

[edit on 18/1/10 by depthoffield]



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by cripmeister
Did you read this? It wasn't seen from all over Norway just from the northern part. The spiral was seen from Sweden, this photo was taken in Puoltsa near Kiruna. The cloud coverage over eastern Finland probably prevented people in Sweden (and Finland) from seeing it.


Cripmeister, excellent contribution. I'm still waiting to see if there were any aircrew reports, but perhaps at altitude, the sky was already too bright.



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 03:04 PM
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reply to post by JimOberg
 

I believe the Spirals were caused by missile malfunctions. I am not disputing that. (anymore)

Mr. Oberg. I have one question do you believe in UFO's being of ET origin?




[edit on 18-1-2010 by timewalker]



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 03:19 PM
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I am including a link to a wheather site that has a view of China at the reported times of the sightings in its database. I believe you have to still plug in the time and place yourself though.

internationalweatherarchive.org...

The view is on Meteostat-7 , Southern Asia. Band IR11.5.

Its not a very good or direct view; and I do have trouble locating Xianjiang on the viewbut for me so far its better than nothing. Tried a really quick and dirty superimpose from Google Earth but its not that clear:



i1019.photobucket.com...

As an aside I do find it interesting that there are pyramids to the west of this place (if I have the right location in Google Earth). This is probably coincidence.

[edit on 18-1-2010 by liquidself]



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 05:24 PM
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reply to post by depthoffield
 


Those are some excellent photographs, thanks for sharing. I'll bet those are the pride of the people who went through the trouble of taking those exceptional pieces.

They still don't look like the Norway spiral, and not nearly as big.

Also, I note that they don't have the information as to what equipment was used and how long the time exposures were. I suspect that is because they weren't intended to be used as evidence in a thread like this, although I suspect they would be happy for the attention.

However, I think the link I provided above that states the distance most people with an average to fairly decent quality camera would be able to see something like the Space shuttle, and what it will look like.

This Norway spiral was seen by most with a naked eye, which means the range spoken about in the report I linked to is far more applicable for the situation. These photographers who took pictures of the Norway spiral didn't seem like they were all that prepared, and it looks like the time exposure was much shorter. Unless these photographers had been waiting for this event, the pictures you provided aren't very relevant.



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by JimOberg

Originally posted by sunsky
And as I mentioned, Xinjiang is no stranger to UFO sightings, and I will bet you some are harder than this one to attribute to missile testing.


No argument there. Grown-ups in the UFO studies field recognize that aside from an unknown core of unknown phenomena, there are hundreds of prosaic causes for most UFO reports.

They also realize that the argument, "I won't accept Explanation 1 for case 1 until you can also prove Explanation 1 fits case 2, also," to be pathetically puerile.



Actually, i think you know when you used words like "cogent, sober and helpful reply", that I'm open to other scientific explanations for the sky spirals.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

As i mentioned in the above thread, not only the sky spirals could be phenomena observed by ancient Chinese astronomers, also what i didnt elaborate on is there are range of explanations for the sky spirals from Chinese experts, while most of them don't relate it to UFO or ET, there are Chinese researchers evenly doubt the "rocket theory", which i made the notion clear when i commented "i think it's unlikely that there were 5 rockets responsible for 5 successive nights of spiral light show in Heihe in 1988". And when i choose the word "unlikely", i meant i do not completely dismiss the probability of man-made causes for sky spirals, but also i mentioned in that thread, among many cases of sky spirals observed over the years in China, even Chinese researchers don't think all of them can be attributed to "rockets", even though for some cases they think could be.

And i said in this thread that the recent UFO sighting in Xinjiang could be military. Again I'm open to other explanations besides UFO.

As for the latest video i offered which some unexplainable phenomenon was filmed by a Chinese couple, i was merely saying I'm waiting for the experts to explain it for people interested in it, and it seems we can rule out missile testing for this particular one.

And i also mentioned that for certain UFO reports in Xinjiang, even researchers from Chinese Academy of Sciences are leaning towards ET origins.

Do i have to translate every case that they think are not astronomical or man-made here to make those Chinese researchers sound not like puerile voices?

I don't know what "grown-ups" means, but to me it's about maintaining sensibility , and i actually took time visiting your homepage and read some of your articles especially those on the prospect of Sino-American space cooperation, which i thought was composed by a very sensible expert on the subject matter.

When you have the heart to recognize the positive significance of China's space development, "Beyond the boundaries of Earth, the accomplishments of all earthlings benefit everyone." some people here and elsewhere still lingers on the notion that somehow China's first spacewalk was faked.

When you explore the "whys" in American politics that maybe affecting Sino-American space cooperation, like "knee-jerk racism or ideological fanaticism", some Americans here still can't let go of their ego which i bet you some are indeed rooted in such factors.

As much as i disagree with you on certain issues, you smell a lot better than some of the "conspiracy rats" here and there as far as I'm concerned.

But i understand we may have difference in explaining UFO phenomenon, but that does not restrain me from recognizing your valuable expertise otherwise. I don’t sniff at people simply because their opinions don’t agree with mine.

But thank you for your comment anyway.

P.S. Since you don't possess telepathy ability like some Aliens do, i would like to say i thought some of those criticism thrown at you by some people here aren't really necessary and sensible, even though i may still disagree with you on certain issues.


[edit on 19-1-2010 by sunsky]



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by Warrior of Light
reply to post by sunsky
 


Thanks for all of that great information. Clearly, we agree that the lights were not caused by a missile, and that the truth is being concealed. The phenomena seen in China on January 11 may indeed have been UFOs, as you say, but I am not so sure the Norway Spiral was.

I agree that UFOs have been spotted on earth for thousands of years. But I also believe that the entities that flew those UFOs long ago began working with some humans to share their technology at some point. So projects like HAARP, as well as UFO technology, are only part of the overall arsenal of technology being studied, tested, and used by the powers that be.

Those who possess this technology have a plan for it, IMO. I believe that the entire bevy of technology will one day be revealed in order to fool, and subsequently control the citizens of Earth in one giant psy-op. Some lights are UFOs, some are weapons such as HAARP, and some are missiles. Which ones are which is up to each person to decide. I just feel that people should question the governments' motives, because they DEFINITELY possess technology that they won't admit exists. And then phenomena occurs, and people believe the governments' official stories without a bit of critical thinking.

New technology and advances wouldn't need testing, right?
Imagine if the first NASA spaceflights had been kept top secret, and then people see some bright light, and a cloudy trail of smoke, shooting into the sky... Well, you see where I'm going with this. If the government wants to hide something, they have no problem lying to the people. It's "for your own good", right?


Yeah,like the “helicopter” on temple of Abydos
www.timstouse.com...

Now if you look at the “helicopter” designed by the “genius” Da vinci,
www.davincisinventions.com...

It’s obvious which one resembles more to the real thing of our world. But what is the probability of some ancient Egyptian person imagined something that is remarkably close to a modern helicopter in appearance, beating the “genius” along the way?I say next to impossible.

To me this is a tentative evidence of time travel, and it’s not just the “helicopter”, you also have two unidentified flying crafts alongside the “helicopter”. So does it mean the ancient Egyptian man who created those images which supposedly based purely on his imagination that can look both 20th century and 25th century? Or rather, it points to the possibility that someone from the 20-21st century went back in time to Ancient Egypt because they got the help from some advanced entities whose technological level belongs to the 25th century?

If you apply the same logic and examine the mysterious Cha mentioned in ancient Chinese books, here allow me to cite something I mentioned in another thread


Authored by a Western Jin dynasty writer and official Zhang Hua(232-300 AD) ,the "Bo wu zhi"(record of natural science) recount the story of the Xian Cha: "It is said, once upon a time the Milky Way and the sea were connected, in recent time there were people live at the seashore, every year in the August the floating raft would arrive and leave on time, there was a man with high aspirations, tall pavilions were set up on the raft, with abundant supplies, the man boarded the raft and left. For more than 10 days, stars, the moon, the sun passed by as he observed them, afterwards, the vastness made him indistinguishable of the nights and days. Another 10 days of travel, he suddenly arrived at a place where he saw many buildings which looks like a city, from distance he saw a weaving woman in the palace, he saw a man with an Ox drinking at the waterside. Surprised, the Cowherd asked him "how did you get here?", he explained himself and asked the Cowherd "what is this place?", replied "return to visit Yan jun ping in the prefecture of Shu for answer", therefore he returned without landing. Thereafter a visit was paid to jun ping in the prefecture of Shu(today's Sichuan province of China), he told him that "there was a guest star violating the constellation Qianniu". and that's when the man paid the visit to the Milky Way"

The Song dynasty work "Tai ping guang ji"(Extensive Records of the Taiping Era) is a collection of things stretching a period from the Han dynasty(206 BC- 220 AD) to the Song dynasty(960-1279 AD), citing "Dong tian ji" it says "The Yan Zun(the same person as Yan jun ping in "Bo wu zhi") 'Xian Cha' was placed in the Linde palace of the Tang dynasty(618-907 AD),it is a metal object with the length of more than fifty chi(the measure of chi is different for different dynasties, it is 1chi=27.65cm during the Qin-Han period; 1chi=31.1cm during the Tang dynasty; 1chi=30.72cm during the Song dynasty, thus making the 'Xian Cha of Yan Zun' at least 15 meters long), its hard and it does not corrode. Li deyu(787-850 AD, Tang prime minister) cut thin branch of more than 1chi, carved an image which often flies away and returns, it disappeared since the era of Guangming(reign of emperor Xizong of Tang dynasty), the Cha(raft,ship) then flew away as well."

The Tang dynasty poet Li shi wrote in his poem "one should ask if one ever gets the chance to meet jun ping, when will the Xian Cha be returning after its departure?"

The "Shiyiji"(Records of Gleaning) by Eastern Jin author Wang jia (?-390 AD), says during the time of Emperor Yao "there was a huge Cha floating over the western sea."


So “the celestial raft” can fly and it’s made of metal? You think some 3rd century or 10th century AD Chinese writer would choose metal instead of wood or other light materials which would have been more practical and applicable as the candidate in their “imaginative” works that “reflects their desire of flight”, and those imaginative transportations echoes so much like the typical UFOs and USOs that we know today? But wait a second, they weren’t novelists, they were simply collecting knowledge from the past, that’s why it’s called “record”, and yes the Chinese by 10th century can differentiate between a novel and a record, because by then we had them in two separate categories already.

So the metal Cha was placed in the Tang dynasty palace, and it’s prime minister “carved an image which often flies away and returns”? What this piece of information hint us I believe is that some individuals in ancient China not only knew about the Alien crafts, there may even be contacts between the ancient men and the owner of these crafts (reminds us of the story of Yan Zun, AKA Yan jun ping and his knowledge of the “celestial raft”), else how was it possible for a 8-9th century Tang Chinese to create something that could fly away and returns?

To me the mystery of Abydos “helicopter” from ancient Egypt echoes the mystery of “celestial rafts” from ancient China.

But as it is preposterous to suggest time travel and humans working with Aliens since early times, it’s evenly preposterous not to think of the possible meanings that this probability would have on human civilization as we know it.

On the matter of Abydos “helicopter”, I just want to add that as I believe it may indicate time travel by present technology, I have always felt interesting about this, that be it the mysterious light ball around crop circles in Britain, or cattle mutilations in America, you have the military involved, and most often it takes the form of helicopters, and here you have a correlation to the Adydos theme. Whatever the truth might be, it’s being concealed to the public. Oh, which is exactly the theme of Stargate SG-1, protocols you know. Interesting the fictional journey starts with Abydos and is also heavily involved with the military. You know, they could be telling us the truth after all, and before our very eyes, sort of. And I believe there is no such thing as coincidences, like coincidence that the ancient Egyptian imagined the “helicopter”, or the ancient Chinese imagined “the celestial raft”, there is always an interrelationship in such coincidences.


[edit on 18-1-2010 by sunsky]



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 08:09 PM
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excuse me for double posting by mistake

[edit on 18-1-2010 by sunsky]



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 03:31 AM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by depthoffield
 


They still don't look like the Norway spiral, and not nearly as big.


Big or small? Really? You know the zoom used (angle of the frame) in order to objectively say "this is big" and "this is small" in those examples?? You are subjective.


At the second example in my previous post, from this source: www.perezmedia.net...

the witness took multiple pictures. Some of them shows quite big halo. Also, he speaks about seeing the phenomenon with his kids, and describe the spectacular show and how easy was to see with naked eyes this distant (400 miles) event.


And, pay atention, i didn't say my examples look like Norway spiral, don't create false debunkings of my sayings. Thank you for understanding this.

My examples are ONLY to show you that you are wrong when assuming that rocket plumes can't be easy seen from big distances in appropiate conditions. They are easy to be seen in appropiate conditions. See the examples provided, and a ton of other examples (search google/images and use "distant rocket plumes" or similar to this).


Originally posted by poet1b
the pictures you provided aren't very relevant.


oh, but they are very relevant to the visibility issue, but you are unable to accept a "damn debunker" contradicting your subjective claims when you say about the (difficult) visibility of distant rocket plumes:


Originally posted by poet1b
During the right sunlight the exhaust plume is probably very visible, but not 500 miles away.







[edit on 19/1/10 by depthoffield]

[edit on 19/1/10 by depthoffield]



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 09:23 AM
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reply to post by depthoffield
 


That would be big or small in proportion of the other details in the picture. The zoom capability is the equipment part. The picture of the rocket launched where it is insubstantially claimed that the rocket is 1,4000 miles down range may very well have been taken with some very good equipment. The cars on the freeway look like on blurred set of lights, so how long was the exposure, and how would this have looked with the naked eye?

In one of the Norway spiral pictures, you can see what appears to be a road in the foreground, and their appears to be cars on the road, and their headlights are not drawn out and blurred together, so clearly there is a big difference in the time exposure. Look at the detail of the fence in the foreground in one of the pictures. These pictures aren't taken by people who had cameras in their hands, not people with cameras on tripods waiting for an event.

Here is a link with the photo where there appears to be cars on a road in the foreground.

OOPS, forgot to add these links, edit to add.

www.bittenandbound.com...

and a video

www.nrk.no...

The Minotaur picture is of a launch. Now I live a whole heck of a lot closer to Vandenberg AF Base than Flagstaff AZ, and I have never seen a rocket launch from Vandenberg light up the entire night sky. Then again I have never been up 6,000 feet in the mountains looking at the right time at the right point on the horizon with a camera on a tridpod, for said launch. Maybe this wasn't as bright as described, there might be some exaggeration going on here. The information on exposure time and the lens used isn't given.

Here is a sight that gives a much more accurate picture of what you are more likely to see from a much closer location, San Diego. This is a nice sight put up by Fred Bruenjes.

www.moonglow.net...

This sight also provides a link for Vandenberg launch schedule for any fellow ATSers here in CA or nearby interested in checking out a rocket launch from a distance. It sounds like a good family outing.

These photos of the Norway Spiral don't appear to be taken on mountain tops by enthusiasts. It is not the same.



[edit on 19-1-2010 by poet1b]



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 10:09 AM
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Originally posted by poet1b
The Minotaur picture is of a launch. Now I live a whole heck of a lot closer to Vandenberg AF Base than Flagstaff AZ, and I have never seen a rocket launch from Vandenberg light up the entire night sky.


Well, THAT settles it.

YOU have never seen it.

Ergo, it's impossible.

And while we're on your adamantine refusal to accept evidence contrary to your happiness-inducing eyes-squeezed-shut self-delusions, where did anyone ever say that the Norway spiral 'lit up the whole sky'?

Accounts I've read indicate it was small and low in the east, not more than a few degrees in max angular extent ever. Maybe 5-10 degrees in elevation. I'd be grateful for documented accounts of better values.



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 10:37 AM
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reply to post by JimOberg
 


Um, did you follow the many links to the pictures of the Norway spiral?

This picture is a good example of how large this spiral appeared in the sky.



[edit on 19-1-2010 by poet1b]

[edit on 19-1-2010 by poet1b]

[edit on 19-1-2010 by poet1b]

[edit on 19-1-2010 by poet1b]

It took me enough tries to download the picture, I just don' do this often enough.

I thought I should add the link where this picture came from.

www.universetoday.com...



[edit on 19-1-2010 by poet1b]



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 01:10 PM
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reply to post by JimOberg
 


I just get the feeling you are going to ignore me. I don't blame you. I'm just the next in a long line of people that smell a rat.

I was just kidding just kidding in my last post JimO. I think there is more to this phenomenon than what's being portrayed since you are involved, there must be great interest in covering something up.

This will come as no shocker to you, but it might to some of the other readers on this forum. Not only are you the NASA spokesperson but......


The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (CSI), formerly known as the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP), is a U.S. non-profit organization whose stated purpose is to "encourage the critical investigation of paranormal and fringe-science claims from a responsible, scientific point of view and disseminate factual information about the results of such inquiries to the scientific community and the public."
[1 Partial list of CSI fellows (past and present)
James Oberg

Wikipedia

A.K.A.- Professional Debunker- That's all well and good. Who does not like some intellectual expertise in the mix? You seem to love to insult people though. Good use of your brains. Superiority complex maybe....


James Oberg, one of CSICOP’s leading UFO debunkers, once did classified work relating to nuclear weapons at the Air Force Weapons Laboratory, located on Kirtland AFB, less than a mile from Sandia Labs. From 1970-72, Oberg was an Air Force officer whose assignments with the Battle Environments Branch at the weapons lab involved the development and utilization of computer codes related to the modeling of laser and nuclear weapons—according to one of Oberg’s own online resumes.


And the Executive Editor of Skeptical Enquirer magazine of CSI

As noted in an earlier posting, the Executive Editor of Skeptical Inquirer is Kendrick C. Frazier. Many years ago, I discovered that Frazier was in fact employed—beginning in the early 1980s—as a Public Relations Specialist at Sandia National Laboratories, in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Yes, the same Sandia Labs that has been instrumental to the success of America’s nuclear weapons program since the late 1940s, through its “ordinance engineering” of components for bomb and missile warhead systems.

Source

Now why would two people so deeply involved in national security be sooo involved in silly UFO topics? hmmm....

And your letter to Bob Jacobs, Ph.D. concerning the Big Sur Ufo Event

James Oberg, a frequent "mouthpiece" for certain NASA projects and self-styled UFO Debunker wrote to disparage my story and to ask provocatively, "Since you obviously feel free to discuss top secret UFO data, what would you be willing to say about other top secret aspects of the Atlas warhead which you alluded to briefly ...?"


Readers can see the entire article here.
nicap.org

Or possibly could your motives be this: $$$$ and hiding the real truth that humans deserve to know.

Which I am having a hard time finding your alleged "law" but have found comments related to it.

Ashley says: January 30, 2009 at 11:24 pm
I think the reason that there are so many paranormal shows these days has to do with “[James] Oberg’s Law of Paranormal Sponsors”, which notes that advertisers prefer audiences that are gullible, because they are likely to get suckered by the ads. Woo-woo shows attract such an audience.

Source

Would you like to elaborate for you gullible audience?

I really like this portion of the open letter you released to Steven Greer "after" the Washington Press Club meeting.


"Please include such `UFO secrets' in your list of disclosure demands, and ask that any government personnel involved in the use (or misuse or abuse) of such practices be immune from any government prosecution for the actions which led them to take such measures. Once such immunity is verifiably granted, I have my own list of people who have privately talked to me over the years and who were involved in government activities leading to a number of well-known `UFO cases', which can be released and which can help the public understand where and how much of today's UFO mythology originated.


Source

Could this mean you included? Don't worry we wont prosecute....maybe?

James Oberg Tells at least 32 Astronauts what they saw

Ripping people to shreds is this guys sole mission...So let me have it Jim.



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 01:17 PM
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Wow, you CAN do original research.

How come you never seem to apply it to real UFO reports?



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by JimOberg
 


Um, did you follow the many links to the pictures of the Norway spiral?

This picture is a good example of how large this spiral appeared in the sky.


So -- in angular size, or compared to the moon, how big WAS it?

How big does this photo show it was, do you think?



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 01:56 PM
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reply to post by JimOberg
 
Like you. I know the real truth. I have witnessed it first hand. Unlike you I like camaraderie of my fellow believers. Now I'm not sure what these phenomenon are, all evidence seems to lead to missiles, but what ever it is it is being down played. That always makes me go hummm?

P.S. the pop up did not sucker me in.



[edit on 19-1-2010 by timewalker]



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 06:54 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


reply to post by timewalker
 


You're beating a dead horse. The 'Norway spiral' was a failed Russian missile launch, despite your best efforts to prove otherwise. But keep on believing that it was something 'special', go ahead waste your time.





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