Looking to be convinced...

I have endlessly searched for definitive proof concerning the Holocaust. Thus far I have came up short. Why do I not believe the official story? Because of so much obfuscation concerning the subject. I could post videos revealing eyewitnesses caught changing their stories on separate video-taped occasions, but I do not want to post examples of suspect curiosities for fear that this thread will be sidetracked by refuting such examples rather than answering the question at hand.

Why am I concerned? Well it is not because I am an anti-semitic jew hater (I am dating a lovely Jewish girl). It is actually because the state of our world is widely a result of Israeli influence and furthermore, Israel is treating their neighbors much like the Gestapo treated them during WWII.

I am curious to why it is taboo to question the Holocaust in every country, and why it is against the law to question it in some European countries.

Through my research I have come to a tentative theory, and I am genuinely asking ATS to straighten out my inquiry, if possible.

Judea Declares War on Germany

This declaration of war would justify the reason why Nazi Germany would transfer Jews to POW camps during the war.

Well I am not disputing that NAZI Germany had a problem with the threat of Jewish innovation and influence. Hitler was proven to be aggressively brokering the transfer of German Jews to Palestine with certain Zionists.

The Transfer Agreement

Why would Nazis export Jews if they wanted to exterminate them?

My theory is such (until proven otherwise)...

POWs were sent to the camps (as are all enemies of the state during war). During the end of the war the supply roads to the camps were bombed and communication to Nazi command stifled. Prisoners were starving and dying, and being disposed of accordingly as they perished. Is it possible that the story of what had happened during their capture were told to them afterwards to further the Zionistic agenda?

If the prisoners had known what was happening as it happened would they not revolt at all costs? Didn't Jews help Nazis in the camp keep control of other prisoners? If those Jews knew they were aiding in their deaths, would this deter than compliance?

Burning bodies is an easy way to eliminate diseases that some of the prisoners perished from.

I would hope this thread turns into intelligent debate on the facts and trying to expose the truth to the rumors and assertions, from both sides. I would also hope that members withhold from noticing the subject only and resort to accusations without taking the subject seriously.

I am sincere in my quest for truth and ready for whatever truth surfaces from the smart members on ATS. My proposed theory is not what I believe as much as it is what I considered. My opinion can be changed with the right words and evidence.

Courtesy is appreciated...

AAC

You realy believe that the Holocaust didnt happen? I think you have spent too much time on this site. Are you saying that 6,000,000 jews didnt die in the consentration camps? No gas chambers? No evil expierements?

Why would someone make up a story like that for? Seriously. How long has this ben in your head? Three or four months maybe? Im a little astonished and speachless to tell you the truth. But its late and i got to go to work in the morning.

No holocaust.....

[shakes head]

MessOnTheFED!

Had to add another one of these---->

[edit on 14-1-2010 by MessOnTheFED!]

reply to post by MessOnTheFED!


I appreciate your position. Can you at least tell me your evidence you have? Rather than saying, "you really don't believe the holocaust didn't happen?"

Are you satisfied believing everything that is told to you? I am not. I would like to be convinced with evidence. Please reply with your reasoning.

AAC

Why would someone make up a story like that for?

For one, it is one of the driving forces which established the jewish state. But that is just an answer to your question.

AAC

Hmmmm... I don't think both of my grandfathers would lie about what they saw in order to create a Jewish state.

The creation of the Jewish state is basically reparations for what Germany had done to the Jewish population. But it wasn't just the European Jews that were in trouble, the Mid-East Jews were in trouble to. The Grand Mufti (Islamic Leader) asked Hitler for help to prevent the Jews from establishing a "Jewish State". Muslims even joined the SS.

In the end, Israel was given to the Jews as reparations, BUT... the Muslims were also give their own "Islamic State" Jordan. But the Muslims made the stupid move of trying to overthrow the reigning Muslim government and replace it with a religious fundamentalist government. It failed and now they are after Israel.

en.wikipedia.org...

www.ushmm.org...

history1900s.about.com...

www.historyplace.com...

www.holocaustsurvivors.org...

I have included some links for holocaust info, for your reading pleasure.

Enjoy =]

reply to post by menjo2000


I appreciate your response. Can you tell me some of the stories your grandfathers told?

From the links you provided, I uncovered no corroborating evidence from survivors stories concerning premeditated genocide. Mostly they are stories about being a scared POW during WWII.

Jeannine Burk:

I didn't observe anything...for the longest time I did not believe in God. So for me it was really not a problem until I became older and I realized that...you see, I think a lot of survivors feel very guilty about surviving. For the longest time I kept asking myself, "Why am I alive? Why is my father dead? Why did 6,000,000 die and I am alive?" And when I got older, I began to realize that maybe God chose me because whatever little I have to contribute to telling of this, I am able to do that now. _

Notice how she said she didn't observe anything. Also, most of the timeline off Jewish oppression by Nazi Germany came in 1934, a year after Jews declared war on Germany.

Shep Zitler

There were 10 of us who stayed together for the entire 5 years and 7 months of our captivity.

Almost 6 years in captivity? No story of death camps in his testimony. Just starvation.

There is no need for me to continue posting text from your link. None of them speak of actually witnessing any forced deaths. Just horrible accounts of being a POW.

Again, Judea declared war on Germany. Of course the Nazi would imprison them in a time of war.

Would love to hear your grandfathers accounts corroborating the Holocaust stories.

We must remember that there is a DIFFERENCE between treacherous accounts of being a POW and the ideas surrounding a massive premeditated genocide.

AAC

I wrote this thread late last night and I wanted to bump it today as I am still waiting to be convinced... with evidence.

AAC

I am a ww2 military collector and I talk to old German women and men all the time and trust me the holocaust happened. Maybe it was not as bad as once stated and stories grow as the years tick by but at the end of the day alot of good people died. The best thing to take away from it is do not let them ever take our guns history has shown this over and over again.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
I am a ww2 military collector and I talk to old German women and men all the time and trust me the holocaust happened. Maybe it was not as bad as once stated and stories grow as the years tick by but at the end of the day alot of good people died. The best thing to take away from it is do not let them ever take our guns history has shown this over and over again.

Trust me it happened? I just do not think that is good enough, all things considered. Isn't there any real tangible evidence that can corroborate the truth?

There is a difference between horrible stories of being a POW and stories of being on death row. What were the old german women and men saying? They were tattooed as POWs for certain, but were they systematically killed?

AAC

I am not 100% on the numbers either but I'm sure it happened.

I've also seen video of Jewish people during ww2 being lined up and shot by german soldiers on the National Geographic channel, very disturbing.

reply to post by AnAbsoluteCreation


Hows this then I have personally talked to SS guards and they told me, how is that for first hand knowledge and I have also talked to others vets that lived it not just some idiot who makes claims based on nothing more than to satisfy their hatred of the Jews.

Also head on over to wermacht military forum and sign up and let the guys who right the books give you a little lesson on history the place is also filled with vets it would open your eyes for that is for sure.

[edit on 14-1-2010 by Subjective Truth]

[edit on 14-1-2010 by Subjective Truth]

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
reply to post by AnAbsoluteCreation

 

Hows this then I have personally talked to SS guards and they told me, how is that for first hand knowledge and I have also talked to others vets that lived it not just some idiot who makes claims based on nothing more than to satisfy their hatred of the Jews.

Also head on over to wermacht military forum and sign up and let the guys who right the books give you a little lesson on history the place is also filled with vets it would open your eyes for that is for sure.

[edit on 14-1-2010 by Subjective Truth]

[edit on 14-1-2010 by Subjective Truth]

Take for granted I am an intelligent man... I have studied history. I have heard the stories. I am just asking for tangible proof. Can no one give me what I am asking for? I do not care for the stories of what someone has said. If you read the beginning thread you will see that I have refrained from posting examples of actual survivors who have changed their stories drastically in different interviews.

I am just hoping to receive real storys, accounts, evidence, and actual proof of what has been asserted. I am not saying don't believe it. I am saying I just want some evidence. I am in a point in my life where I feel ALL truth should be verified... including the Holocaust.

AAC

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
I am a ww2 military collector and I talk to old German women and men all the time and trust me the holocaust happened. Maybe it was not as bad as once stated and stories grow as the years tick by but at the end of the day alot of good people died. The best thing to take away from it is do not let them ever take our guns history has shown this over and over again.

Trust me it happened? I just do not think that is good enough, all things considered. Isn't there any real tangible evidence that can corroborate the truth?

There is a difference between horrible stories of being a POW and stories of being on death row. What were the old german women and men saying? They were tattooed as POWs for certain, but were they systematically killed?

AAC

What you're asking is kinda tough. It would be like me saying..."I don't believe Columbus sailed across the Atlantic and discovered the America's, there's no tangible proof, just books of what people said happened."

I think train cars filled with the corpses of Jews speaks volumes. No Catholics, no Protestants, no Agnostics, no Atheists, just Jews.

en.wikipedia.org...

remember.org...

More links for your reading pleasure. Look for "Final Solution", that was the name for the plan to exterminate the Jews.

May I ask, what would it take to prove to you that the Holocaust actually happened, or at least get you to believe that it MIGHT have happened??

I also unconvinced.

From your source.

INSTRUCTIONAL OBJECTIVES
Students will learn that:

1. An entire state bureaucracy was mobilized solely for the purpose of annihilating Jews.

Students will learn whatever you put infront of them. Why is this being given as evidence? The school system is biased enough on this subject. Why are we not taught the true extent of the Allied holocaust? Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Hamburg, etc.

Take Dresden for example...

In four raids, 1,300 heavy bombers dropped more than 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices on the city, the Baroque capital of the German state of Saxony. The resulting firestorm destroyed 39 square kilometres (15 sq mi) of the city centre

Killing 35,000 German civilians in just 4 raids.





These pictures look no different than those from the Holocaust.

From an official memo, "I do not personally regard the whole of the remaining cities of Germany as worth the bones of one British Grenadier."

How is this not targetted mass murder? How is this not part of a Holocaust waged on the German people? To cleanse from the land their lives, their culture, their cities...

There are many examples. Wesel... 97% destroyed by Allied bombing.



Do we cover these crimes in as much detail as the Holocaust? Do we attribute the same importance and value to all casualties of the war? Do we have as much evidence of the Holocaust as it is currently told as we have of the Allied war crimes?

Hitler did not plan on exterminating the Jews. If that were the case, as is commonly told, why was it Nazi policy to ship them to Palestine?

As declared in newspapers of the time, Judea declared war on Germany (well before the war began) much the same way Islamic extremist groups declare war on western states now.



Muslims part of these groups are put in Guantanamo and numerous other camps for this purpose (Abu Ghraib, CIA secret prisons). Some of the inmates have been extradited from Britain and other western states.

After Judea declared war on Germany, Jews were sent to concentration camps. Years later, Jews in territories under Nazi control followed.

For me, these parallels highlight the difference spin makes. A German citizen during the Nazi era probably wouldn't of felt much different about the incarceration of Jews than most today feel about putting the suspected Islamic extremist in American camps. In both instances it was played as necessary to protect the people.

Numbers aside, what makes the Holocaust different in principle? The claim that in addition to concentration camps, there existed 'death camps' designed for the sole purpose of executing genocide against the Jewish people and other undesirables. Let me get this of the way first. Jews were murdered by the Nazis, some executed by firing squad, others by diesel gassing van. Just as US troops executed captured German troops by firing squad, and today carry out summary executions with drones. Just as Israel gasses Palestinians with white phosphorus. Executions happened, but there is no concrete evidence for the death camps that systematically claimed 6 million Jewish lives. Without them, there is no Holocaust.

The evidence we are given is photographs of huge piles of bodies. These look no different than the recovery of cadavers in destroyed German cities. Furthermore there is nothing in the pictures to distinguish from body disposal in ordinary concentration camps.

There are photographs of gas chambers but there is nothing to distinguish these from delousing chambers, necessary for camps of that capacity. There are Nazi documents most often cited as proof of the Holocaust but none of them directly imply genocide, death camps, or anything of the sort.

I am open to the possibility. That being said, I still maintain the German persecution of Jews is manipulated and blown out of proportion to other injustices. I still maintain genocide was not original Nazi policy. I disapprove of this historical persecution being used to justify modern policy. Especially where said policy causes further harm and death.



[edit on 2010/1/15 by SteveR]

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
reply to post by AnAbsoluteCreation

 

Hows this then I have personally talked to SS guards and they told me, how is that for first hand knowledge and I have also talked to others vets that lived it not just some idiot who makes claims based on nothing more than to satisfy their hatred of the Jews.

Also head on over to wermacht military forum and sign up and let the guys who right the books give you a little lesson on history the place is also filled with vets it would open your eyes for that is for sure.

[edit on 14-1-2010 by Subjective Truth]

[edit on 14-1-2010 by Subjective Truth]

Take for granted I am an intelligent man... I have studied history. I have heard the stories. I am just asking for tangible proof. Can no one give me what I am asking for? I do not care for the stories of what someone has said. If you read the beginning thread you will see that I have refrained from posting examples of actual survivors who have changed their stories drastically in different interviews.

I am just hoping to receive real storys, accounts, evidence, and actual proof of what has been asserted. I am not saying don't believe it. I am saying I just want some evidence. I am in a point in my life where I feel ALL truth should be verified... including the Holocaust.

AAC

Seems you're contadicting yourself here a bit. Hmmmm, another poster says trust me I've heard fromsoldiers etc, and you are skeptical, yet you are looking for stories, accounts etc.....which ones would you approve of.....I think you are just looking to stir things up a bit? Nothing on this topic could be proven to you, you discredit pics, stories, accounts, and yet desire proof. What would you deem acceptable?

Seems you're contadicting yourself here a bit.

Hmmmm, another poster says trust me I've heard fromsoldiers etc, and you are skeptical, yet you are looking for stories, accounts etc

I want the stories so I can corroborate them while also looking for more information. I have stated that there is video evidence of witnesses changing their account of the history drastically. Then someone asked, why would they make it up? I answered, because look at what has been the result of the Holocaust.

State of Israel. Illegal Occupation of Palestine. Inexplicable wars. Oppression. Deception. Terrorism. Murder. Disrespectful foreign policy. The list goes on...

Zionism is a Movement, an agenda. By all means necessary their slogan.

I am not claiming that Jews were murdered during the war. I am just looking for tangible evidence that they were systematically murder. The reason I am not a believer is the following:

1). Hitler secretly helped Zionists transport german jews to Palestine.
2). Jews declared war on Germany in 1933. Which is why they were sent to POW camps as the war progressed.
3). No evidence there were actual death camps.
4). Taboo to even doubt the Holocaust and against the law to deny it in some countries. Why?
5). Zionists actively met with Hitler to broker their transfers.

I think you are just looking to stir things up a bit?

Nope. I have been respectful in all my replies on this thread, and I am genuinely trying to uncover evidence to a subject that is swallowed as truth. 99% of all eyewitness never claim to have seen a single death camp.

From what evidence reveals, Jews and others were in POW camps that eventually lost their supplies and ended up dying of disease and starvation, while other jews were transported to Palestine. Why weren't all Jews sent to Palestine then? Because Palestinians began to complain of the illegal squatting and pressure the British and they began cracking down.

Why did the British care what the Palestinians said? Because they helped defeat the Ottoman empire during WWI. Ever heard of Lawrence of Arabia? History is there for anyone to out the pieces together. It may have happened just the way it is written, but after scratching the surface of written history, a different story begins to take shape.

Nothing on this topic could be proven to you, you discredit pics, stories, accounts, and yet desire proof. What would you deem acceptable?

Pics? Did you see the pics SteveR posted? I could easily claim they were from death camps... but they weren't.

Stories? Check this witness lie on tape.



Do not assume I am ignorant, rather assume I am a seeker of truth.

SteveR, I really appreciate your calculated response.


AAC

Concentration Camp Money

If you are fighting a full scale war against Russia, Britain and America, a war for your very survival, would you expend precious resources to conceal your crimes against Jews? Would you be too cowardly to let the truth be known? Surely with such a war going on whether the enemy knows of your Jewish death camps would be irrelevant.

Why develop an elaborate system of currency for the slave laborers in the death camps? Why provide food and services to purchase? Why not simply work them to death, using violence to compel them, as we are so frequently told in chilling detail by the witness testimony.

Why haven't we heard of a witness that corroborates these historical facts?

I know if I was a camp survivor, I'd feel pretty intimidated about sharing my version of events if everyone else, the officials, the Zionists, the newspapers were saying something completely different. I could only imagine that somehow I must be mistaken, perhaps in a stroke of luck the camp was liberated before I was due to meet my end. Afterall, I do remember the smells of burning corpses...

reply to post by AnAbsoluteCreation


I learned along time ago if someone keeps saying I am intelligent they have some doubt in it. No amount of proof will be enough to fill the whole that hate has made inside of you. It is not about that for you it is about pushing buttons and hoping to sway the mindless sheep.

And if I am totally off base about you talk to the guys that were on the ground on both sides and hurry up they are dying off very fast another 5-10 years and they will be gone. I have talked to guards who worked at Dachau and also vets from our side who witnessed the aftermath and I have pictures of piles of bodies that I received with lot of insignia truly disturbing pictures to say the least. So grow up and study before letting your mouth run it shows your age. And if you want to be taken as intelligent don't keep saying it over and over again. Its like a retard saying I am not dumb.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth


I learned along time ago if someone keeps saying I am intelligent they have some doubt in it.

Well, now you have met the other side of that proverbial coin.

No amount of proof will be enough to fill the whole that hate has made inside of you.

Have you resorted to assuming I am a hateful person? Show me one sentence, strike that, one word in this entire thread that resembles hatred. Are you becoming annoyed because what I am saying bares relevance? I should expect that considering your profile name is 'subjective truth.' That fits so well, by the way. Why not try being objective?

It is not about that for you it is about pushing buttons and hoping to sway the mindless sheep.

You are just slinging assumptions. I am sourcing facts. I am asking for evidence. I am proposing a dialogue where truth can be discovered. Have you read the entire thread? Or have you been condition to blindly believe and refuse to consider the alternatives? Does being wrong frighten you?

And if I am totally off base about you talk to the guys that were on the ground on both sides and hurry up they are dying off very fast another 5-10 years and they will be gone.

I have read their accounts throughout history. Show me where they state their accounts about systematic deaths. Why does the world almanac show an increase in Jews from 1941 to 1946? There is no account of 6 million jews disappearing.

I have talked to guards who worked at Dachau and also vets from our side who witnessed the aftermath and I have pictures of piles of bodies that I received with lot of insignia truly disturbing pictures to say the least.

That's great. I have read their publications. They witnessed the aftermath of a POW camp that was long-forgotten by supply trucks and medicine aide, not a camp of systematic killings. Why can you not differentiate? And did you not see SteveR's pics of stacked bodies? That was german citizens after a carpet bombing. 45 million people died in WWII. There are going to be many pics of dead bodies. That is no proof of a Holocaust.

So grow up and study before letting your mouth run it shows your age.

Study? You are the one speak emotionally. I am using data. You are talking hearsay. Get it?

And if you want to be taken as intelligent don't keep saying it over and over again. Its like a retard saying I am not dumb.

^ That didn't even make sense, btw.

AAC

You want me to show you how you are filled with hate? It is clear as day when you look at yourself you see the truth inside when you put that truth inside down on paper it shows everyone else something and what I see is you are closed off to the idea of it. Why are you so closed when you have in reality 1000s of witnesses and survivors.

It is like telling the crazy person the voices do not exist to the crazy person the voices are very real indeed. I will never change your mind and if you truly wanted to know the truth you would seek it out with the people who lived it not some ww2 patch collector.


This is why I pointed you in a direction but you choice to ignore it once again in my eyes showing hate because you do not want to find the facts you ask for. It is really kind of strange it is like a thirsty man asking for water and then refusing to drink.