Men more evolved? Y chromosome study stirs debate

Originally posted by Edrick

You were implying that the Correlation of women being in the life of leaders, thinkers, and inventors is a direct cause of these great deeds.

This, inevitably LEADS to a slippery slope, because we could attribute the NEARLY INFINITE variables that contributed to the existence of these people, their education, their nutrition, EVEN THE WEATHER that might have made them take a different course in life.

False Attribution is a Fallacy, and it was YOUR fallacy.

Actually that passage I quoted where you committed the slippery slope fallacy was taken from your argument with Gorman. Not with me. I actually didnt argue that their association with women was the cause of their inventions.


I dont really want to get back into the whole argument. Its hard to debate online unless you can keep close track of who said what, and that argument is clearly too long and unwieldy for that to happen, if you are mistaking me for Gorman. Also, except for the "who said what" bickering our debate has devolved into, we really dont seem to have a point of contention.

Originally posted by Edrick
I would berate your for your lack of understanding, But I know that you are not responsible for your own actions, and Instead I should find all of the people in your life that could have possibly contributed to your awareness, knowledge, education, dietary needs, emotional validation, etc...

Feel free to berate me personally. I take full responsibility for my level of understanding. (Not that I dont acknowledge all the contributors to it, mind you)

Edit to correct my crappy use of quotes.

[edit on 18-1-2010 by Illusionsaregrander]

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

Actually that passage I quoted where you committed the slippery slope fallacy was taken from your argument with Gorman. Not with me. I actually didnt argue that their association with women was the cause of their inventions.

Hmmm....

I may have committed an error in contributing that particular argument to my conversation with you.

But I am not wrong in the logical structure of my previous argument on this topic.

I dont really want to get back into the whole argument. Its hard to debate online unless you can keep close track of who said what, and that argument is clearly too long and unwieldy for that to happen, if you are mistaking me for Gorman. Also, except for the "who said what" bickering our debate has devolved into, we really dont seem to have a point of contention.

Oddly enough, I was just musing on this myself.

I agree with you that this argument (Mine and Yours) does not have a solid foundation to work with.

An unholy amalgamation of quotes and re quotes, forming a spiders web of nightmarish complexity.

Feel free to berate me personally. I take full responsibility for my level of understanding. (Not that I dont acknowledge all the contributors to it, mind you)

I was more attempting to make a point, than to berate you, but I will admit that I was venomous.

I also see no reason to continue our little verbal sparring session, and will happily drop the argument, quote mining, and Ad homenims if you will likewise do the same.

IT seems that we have been arguing at each other, instead of against each others points... and it is clear to me now that we don't have a solid understanding of each others *PERSPECTIVE* on the matter.

I.E. The debate was not labeled, or named.

You appear to have a sharp intellect, and for this I can respect you as an adversary.

So, what say you?

Do we have a Cease Fire?

-Edrick

Originally posted by seattletruth

Men more evolved?

Because women are less different to monkeys than men are?!!!

That's assuming monkeys are less evolved than humans....

I don't see the primates bringing the world to the bring of destruction; raping their environment 'til it can no longer support them.

If women are closer to monkeys, then perhaps it's the women that are more evolved than the men!

Originally posted by McGinty

Because women are less different to monkeys than men are?!!!

That's assuming monkeys are less evolved than humans....

I don't see the primates bringing the world to the bring of destruction; raping their environment 'til it can no longer support them.

If women are closer to monkeys, then perhaps it's the women that are more evolved than the men!

was up at bellevue zoo in Belfast and watched the monkey enclosure- some were eating their own faeces while the rest of the group treated it as normal.

I also held up card with

"IF YOU CAN READ THIS GIVE ME A THUMBS UP"

none of them gave me a thumbs up.

I fear your analysis may be unfounded good sir!

reply to post by seattletruth


well, i think men may be more technological, in general, maybe due to the Y chromosome difference. of course that was probably genetically engineered by aliens.

as far as emotional and other intelligence goes tho, its pretty clear women and animals are more evolved than men . hate to say it, but its true, just look at saudi arabia and all the wars we keep having.

technology isnt the be all and end all for a species, i hope.

reply to post by rapunzel222


we should appreciate both sexes, for differing reasons

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by McGinty

Because women are less different to monkeys than men are?!!!

That's assuming monkeys are less evolved than humans....

I don't see the primates bringing the world to the bring of destruction; raping their environment 'til it can no longer support them.

If women are closer to monkeys, then perhaps it's the women that are more evolved than the men!

was up at bellevue zoo in Belfast and watched the monkey enclosure- some were eating their own faeces while the rest of the group treated it as normal.

I also held up card with

"IF YOU CAN READ THIS GIVE ME A THUMBS UP"

none of them gave me a thumbs up.

I fear your analysis may be unfounded good sir!

Lol, great field research there!

Perhaps they weren't English speaking chimps! They may have been French, German of even Italian. I'd imagine they were northern hemisphere though, as it can only have been the predominance of fast food hamburger chains that has driven to eat there own #, or at least got them used to the taste of it

reply to post by McGinty




hah, maybe

Originally posted by blueorder
reply to post by rapunzel222

 

we should appreciate both sexes, for differing reasons

Yes, one does the cooking, the other does the farting...

reply to post by McGinty


best chefs are male

Originally posted by seattletruth
reply to post by juniperberry

 

Sorry, but an observation is not an "invention".

What did she actually invent?

I was thinking the exact same thing. This is not researched, but I think men have invented far more things over time. Which is fine. WOmen, sit back and enjoy the benefits!

Without women, life would be a dull! Then again without men, there would not be any strength!

Now that is out of the way, women and men are not made equal! That does not mean that women are beneath men.

My belief is that there are certain tasks that men can do better than women and the same it true about women being better at certain tasks than men.

There are "features" that are unique between the sexes, and that is domain where the whole debate about the equality of men and women appears to arise from.
I do not believe a question whether women are equal to men is relevant! Clearly, we are intellectually the same, no matter how much each side have and will continue to argue that one is better than the other.


So now when we throw in the "evolution of men" in mix, it is relevant that - YES indeed, men would mutate to the environment that he is now placed in.

Have the roles of men and women changed? a big YES.

Common and traditional belief is that men were the breadwinners and protectors, that role has changed. Women have strongly stepped up to the challenge of taking on both these roles.

Hence the evolution of the male species is inevitable - when looking at it from this prespective.

That is what I think anyway.


sR

Originally posted by seattletruth

Men more evolved? Y chromosome study stirs debate

news.yahoo.com

WASHINGTON – Women may think of men as primitive, but new research indicates that the Y chromosome — the thing that makes a man male — is evolving far faster than the rest of the human genetic code.

A new study comparing the Y chromosomes from humans and chimpanzees, our nearest living relatives, show that they are about 30 percent different. That is far greater than the 2 percent difference between the rest of the human genetic code and that of the chimp's, according to a study appearing online

(visit the link for the full news article)

Erm 98% of human and chimpanzee genetic code is the same. Now the differences between human and chimpanzee of the other 2% could be anything from >0 to 100%!!!!!!!!!

It's called statistics! You gotta now what you are comparing otherwise you can "prove" anything!

Put it this way 98% of men are the same as chimpanzees..........

Originally posted by Distractions4Nothing
The Y chromosome is that one oddball gene that gives us all our male characteristics. So our reproductive success depends heavily on that one chromosome. It's no secret that males compete harder than women for mates, resources and territory in just about every mammalian species. So there is a lot of stress driving the evolution of that chromosome. I don't see why this should be a surprise.

But I think the Y chromosome is more prone to defects because it's passed only from the father. It's sort of like inbreeding. Funny to think of men as all being inbreds, but it could explain a lot.

No it doesn't. Read my post, you must have missed it in the multi-page gender whining brawl.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Sorry to spam it, but if I responded directly it would be a literal repeat.

Originally posted by Johnmike
Hasn't anyone else here wondered what the hell this article is talking about? Here's a simple biology lesson:

In women, there are two X chromosomes. XX. One chromosome is inactivated (almost completely, but only almost FYI) by becoming a Barr body and the other remains active. Thus one X chromosome is active per cell. This fixes the discrepancy in potential gene expression between men and women, as otherwise women would have way too much genetic expression of that chromosome.

Now let us look at XY. The X does not form a Barr body and thus in males XY is expressed. The Y is what gives males the male characteristics -- this extra gene expression.
Yes, this means that despite the extra template material, men actually seem to express more of it than their female counterparts.

But the Y is just an incomplete copy of the X. The extra potential for genetic disorders is due to the X chromosome, not the Y chromosome. See, most disorders are recessive -- that is, that an individual becomes diseased by having not one, but two pairs of the genetically abnormal chromosome. Therefore both the mother and father had at least one copy of the disease. But in men, we only have one copy of the genetic material that is on the X yet absent from the Y chromosome. Therefore, men only need one bad copy of the gene -- always from the mother (she gives the X chromosome, as she has no Y) -- to have a genetic disease.

So how does mutating the Y chromosome have more of an effect that mutating a regular chromosome? IT DOESN'T. Its genes are doubled on the X just like all the others! The Y contains no genes that are not doubles on the X, so it isn't any different! If anything, we should be looking at the unpaired parts of the X chromosome!


Here are some parts of the article which are particularly, well...wrong, or misleading.

Researchers took the most detailed examination of the Y chromosome, which females do not have, of both humans and chimps and found entire sections dramatically different. There were even entire genes on the human Y chromosome that weren't on the chimp, said Hughes, also of the Whitehead Institute..

A female has no Y chromosome, true. But she has an X chromosome in its place! The X chromosome contains all of the genetic material that would be on the Y chromosome! So difference between the Y chromosome of a chimp and the Y chromosome of a human will also be differences on their X chromosomes! The Y contains no genetic material independent of the X chromosome at all. And not only that, but any mutation in the Y chromosome may also be transferred to an X chromosome and passed down to a daughter via crossing over during gamete cell division. So the article here makes no sense -- and is trying to sensationalize and mislead you.

There are a couple of reasons Page and Hughes cite for Y being such an evolutionary powerhouse. One is that it stands alone and isn't part of a pair like 44 other chromosomes. So when there are mutations there's no matching chromosome to recombine and essentially cover up the change, Hughes said.

This is just plain wrong. The Y is part of a pair; its partner is the X chromosome. The Y does recombine with the X chromosome in meiosis, the kind of cell division to create gametes (sex cells). Here crossing over, the exchange of genetic material between chromosomes, does occur! Thus this article is completely misleading. It's just plain wrong.

reply to post by Johnmike

So how does mutating the Y chromosome have more of an effect that mutating a regular chromosome? IT DOESN'T. Its genes are doubled on the X just like all the others! The Y contains no genes that are not doubles on the X, so it isn't any different! If anything, we should be looking at the unpaired parts of the X chromosome!

That is a very interesting statement, that the Y chromosome is just an incomplete copy of the X chromosome.

I would like to know what source you derive this statement from, as I have been looking for proof, and I have not found it.

What I HAVE found, is that the Y chromosome keeps a copy of its genetic code on itself... that it is self fixing, because it is unable to recombine, and swab most of its bits with the X... (95% of the Y cannot recombine with the X)

www.thetech.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

So.... Would you care to share?

-Edrick

And it’s day number 5 in the knock down, smack down, drag out fight here on ATS between men and women.

Neither of the champions seems to be wearing down as this battle royal continues live here on ATS.

In the right corner we have WhiteWave and Illusion’s Grandeur representing the women of the world in a fabulous and tireless tag team duo determined to take home the crown in the battle of the sexes.

In the left corner we have three time champion Edrick battling alone with one ear and one paw tied behind his back as this welter weight fleet footed man’s man of rabbits kicks, paws, chews, uses his ears and even his whisker’s to give the gals a fighting chance!

There are times it has been ugly, times it’s been breathtaking and times its just made you want to sit back scratch your head in the death defying wonder in which these bitterly opposed contestants battle onward.

Will the gals prevail or will that remarkable astounding tricky rabbit succeed in gaining an unprecedented 4th title crown in the battle between the sexes.

Your guess is as good as mine folks we will all just have to wait and see, and now a word from our sponsors Lite Beer by Miller, it tastes great and is less filling…the Hartford group, go with the leader in experience, and Ford Motor Company where Quality is Job number One!



[edit on 18/1/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

If men are evoling faster than us women, then it shouldn`t be long for the penny to drop, and that we really are the stronger sex... Come on boy`s we`r waiting...

i'd have to see more than one or two studies confirming that and that doesn't take into account individual eveoloution, because it is proven that some individuals are more evolved thatn others so men being more evolved would be a pattern rather than a solid consistancy

Originally posted by Edrick

I also see no reason to continue our little verbal sparring session, and will happily drop the argument, quote mining, and Ad homenims if you will likewise do the same.

Done.

Originally posted by Edrick
IT seems that we have been arguing at each other, instead of against each others points... and it is clear to me now that we don't have a solid understanding of each others *PERSPECTIVE* on the matter.

I concur. It happens sometimes in debates.

Originally posted by Edrick
You appear to have a sharp intellect, and for this I can respect you as an adversary.

So, what say you?

Do we have a Cease Fire?

Absolutely. I also say I look forward to our next debate. I think you are very intelligent as well, though I think you could stand a little brushing up on your formal logic.

Though I do suspect that the heat of the thread up to the point I jumped in may have led to that impression. Its hard to stay on track once you get too fired up.

So cheers until the next time we joust!

Originally posted by redoubt
The world has been male-dominated since... well, the beginning of the human civilization. And why not? We had upper body strength, built the homes, bridges, ships, cathedrals, plowed the fields... etc.

But since we have now advanced to a point where that physical power is less in demand than that of the mind and so too, temperament, we see the female advancing.

All the advancements you speak of came from the minds of men. Most of the great minds in this world have been Men. Very few women are in science and technology, that's were future advancement is likely to come from

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
These days, the negative attributes of men are emphasised while the positive attributes of women are highlighted by the media and society in general.

Yep, if this thread was "women more evolved? x chromosome study stirs debate" there would be tons of posts affirming so.

Originally posted by whitewave
Mary Jacobs-invented the bra.
/Women_Inventors.htm]Distinguished Women [/url]

How is that even notable? Shouldn't you come up with inventions comparable to the best male inventions? It would be like me naming a bunch of great inventors and placing the guy who invented jock straps on the same list with Da vinci.

[edit on 18-1-2010 by Amelie]