What made you gay or lesbian?

reply to post by mamabeth


M, I don't quite get where you are coming from, you question whether the water is making people gay, which we can pretty much discount as people been doing gay for centuries with nice clean water and small beer.

You deny that your god made people gay but claim that something called sin made people gay.

Can you please elaborate ?

As a christian,I am taught that homosexuality is a sin.We are all born
sinners into this world.A homosexual can say that he/she is born that
way.
God didn't make anyone, gay/lesbian,their carnal,sinful nature did.

This article was posted on one of my threads.I found it very interesting
and wondered if any, gay/lesbians,have had similar experiences or
nightmares.

www.whale.to...

reply to post by mamabeth

God didn't make anyone, gay/lesbian,their carnal,sinful nature did.

Hm, the problem you got there M is this, you are implying there is something not created by your god, which cannot be if your god created everything that is ,was or will ever be.

In order of the designed to act in a way it was not designed to do, the impetus for this action has to come from somewhere.

So the question you have to answer is where dose the impetus for the action come from ?

reply to post by scraze


Wow! What a great post and thank you for taking the time to share that with us. I am, however, somewhat frustrated that you quoted me directly and then turned around and told me it was not true that DNA had not been fully mapped. If you read the statement I made in your own quote box, you will see that I never said it was, and they are, by your own admission, getting closer to doing so. But, I quibble, because your post was nicely informative, and well worth reading.

However, you say something at the end that I find disturbing and indicative of much of modern day science. You say:

"We may not know which parts of DNA influence sexual orientation, but it's clear they exist."

While I think you have presented enough information to show that I am wrong to dismiss Rising Against's assertion as merely opinion, and it is worthy of being considered more than hypothesis, and now in the realm of theory, it is still theory. The studies of twins is fascinating and I do believe much can be learned from studying them, however, are you aware of studies that suggest that altruism is not purely a product of environment? The study I am aware of comes from the Journal of Personality, that reports on a study made by Lara Koenig, and was study of twins.

It is a bold and even somewhat outrageous statement to make that altruism might be genetic, at least at this stage of the game, but this seems to be what Koenig is claiming with her study. I have read articles and a few papers that discuss the study of twins, particularly those raised apart, and how they can share many behavioral traits, in spite of different environmental backgrounds and it lead to compelling hypothesis, but it is a complex issue and one that can not be so soundly declared as definitive as either Rising Against, (who is most certainly entitled to his/her opinion and given your own post, an opinion worthy of being called theory) or yourself, also entitled to yours.

One of the interesting things about making such declarations is the problems the book The Bell Curve by Richard J. Hernnstein created. This book used the genetic information of that time and based upon that information made a number of assertions. One of those being that I.Q.'s were determined largely by genetic factors. Of course, the I.Q. test in itself is problematic as a measure of intelligence, and this became one of the many criticisms leveled against that book. I am just not so certain as others would be at this point, that everything we do is a matter of genetics.

From addiction to charity to homosexuality, there are so many factors involved, so many angles from which it need be considered, that simply declaring homosexuality a product of breeding, no pun intended, seems to be premature at best.

That said, I did enjoy your post greatly and found it compelling and edifying. Thanks for sharing that.

Originally posted by mamabeth
As a christian,I am taught that homosexuality is a sin.We are all born
sinners into this world.A homosexual can say that he/she is born that
way.
God didn't make anyone, gay/lesbian,their carnal,sinful nature did.

*sighs*
So basically for me not to be a sinner anymore I'd have to "turn" straight, be fake, not being truthful to myself and to a man.. cuz at the end im with him just to be with someone who has a penis cuz thats a man right. oh and unhappy.

On the other hand i could just love someone to the fullest, be truthful, be myself and happy with someone who is the same sex as me.

What would you do?

ps. not always what you have been taught is the only truth or the right way.

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by mamabeth

 

God didn't make anyone, gay/lesbian,their carnal,sinful nature did.

Hm, the problem you got there M is this, you are implying there is something not created by your god, which cannot be if your god created everything that is ,was or will ever be.

In order of the designed to act in a way it was not designed to do, the impetus for this action has to come from somewhere.

So the question you have to answer is where dose the impetus for the action come from ?

I couldn't agree more with you moocowman

Originally posted by mamabeth
What conditions do you feel led you into becoming a homosexual?

Birth. Simple as that. FWIW I am a bisexual woman.

Originally posted by Roan.A


What would you do?

Sadly she has told us what she is doing... 'trying' to drown herself in Christianity in the hopes that she stops thinking about titties...

It will be there though Mama... in a month... a year... 20 years... it will still be there in you wanting to be truthful and to live as GOD made you...

Then you will have to sin like the rest of us

I really hope you find peace and that your battle isn't too great... I can remember when I was 11 and for the first time telling a friend of mine at school "I think I may be a lesbian" ... BOY did I have a roller coaster of a ride in that all girls RC convent school.... Luckily I'm made of bloody strong stuff and gradually other girls joined the 'sin bin'.

Must log off now or my eyes will fall out, have been working at this machine for 13 hours!!

night night.

I think you are born with it.. There has been homosexuality as long as there has been humans.. I dont mind saying, but when I was going through puberty there were times of confusion lol... And even now if Megan Fox was to say hi, I think it would be very hard for me to NOT say hello back.. And with all the guys I have been with I'm surely tempted to go that way lol... My preference is guys though, but I would never rule it out completely except for my faith which would keep me in check.. AND I prefer guys lol...

Originally posted by yzzyUK

Originally posted by Roan.A


What would you do?

Sadly she has told us what she is doing... 'trying' to drown herself in Christianity in the hopes that she stops thinking about titties...

It will be there though Mama... in a month... a year... 20 years... it will still be there in you wanting to be truthful and to live as GOD made you...

Then you will have to sin like the rest of us

I really hope you find peace and that your battle isn't too great... I can remember when I was 11 and for the first time telling a friend of mine at school "I think I may be a lesbian" ... BOY did I have a roller coaster of a ride in that all girls RC convent school.... Luckily I'm made of bloody strong stuff and gradually other girls joined the 'sin bin'.

Must log off now or my eyes will fall out, have been working at this machine for 13 hours!!

night night.

Oh I missed that bit. Yeah you are right. It will come back. In fact it will always be there because its the nature of who you are. Just like the nature who she is and anyone else.

Originally posted by redoubt
Just a few thoughts...



I guess that what I am getting at is... underneath our physical connections to gender traits, we are all basically the same. The human inside of us does not require sex to survive and that without it, there might be nothing to distinguish us aside from our individual personalities.

We might want to rethink this thought. Without sex we wouldn't be here. Also I do require sex to survive. Maybe I am in the minority

I believe that sexuality stems from psycho-sexual imprint. Meaning that the spirit has a particular gender dominance/neutrality. Some men have very effeminate spirits, but are not gay, some womyn, masculine spirits but they are not lesbians. It should be clear to you by now (I'm not trying to come across as being rude, so don't misread this) that no matter the spirit's composure left/middle/right, we all seek after spiritual nurturing. Religion means, to do a thing in repetition, to bind it in chains. Thus the formulas attended to in church (I believe from the German word Kurke meaning coven). Don't be fooled, we all eat, breathe, work, sleep, defecate, urinate etc religiously. Spirituality however, is a thing which is always changing, always new, never the same, it grows and matures with you. It is what defines your spirit, and if you so choose, your relationship with your creator, your walk in life. Spirituality requires a close spiritual intimacy with self/creator (you choose) Intimacy is a thing which becomes stale when done in repetition, therefore we change it up. I have a very dear spiritual belief, but would not choose to disclose it to you however, for though our beliefs may have similarities, they are distinctly our own.
Simply put, our physical lives are only a grosser animalistic image or a reflection of our spiritual lives and how we choose to maintain intimate oneness. We are all different, all changing, no two desires are alike, as they are intimate, and thus are defined by the experiences in life which form our lexicons, thus, for me when you say gay OR christian I see expression formed from nothingness, while you may be envisioning the stereotypical image of these. Easier still, you say red and in my mind I see burgundy. Lexicons, it can not be communicated, it must be experienced, not through others, or through some formula, it must be experienced for you in order for you to form your definition. I hope that this sheds some light on the nature of asking the question, but then again, I may just be rambling..

reply to post by mamabeth

Allow me a few reflections on this issue...

There are approximately 25 variations between complete male and complete female determined by hormonal and anatomical (secondary sexual characteistics)...
...but these are less than 1% of the population...
...and none of the variations predispose for sexual preference.

In a professional role I know the circumstances of several gay males...
...one was seduced by an older gay male in early puberty and believes his orientation was determined by that encounter...
...another was the son of a violent mother and alcholic father...
...had a five year relationship with a women who fell pregnant to another man...
...and during the emotional trauma that followed was comforted by a old school friend who was gay...
...and now lives in a long term stable gay relationship.

I am also aware of persons who were sexually interferred with as infants whose orientation was influenced by this unwanted attention.


The opinion I have formed is best described by the adage...
..."What fires together wires together"

Sexual and emotional factors become focused on a type of person or gender...
...cultural, religious, familial, eduction play a role...
...this also explains the preference for blondes, brunettes, latino, black etc...
...and this becomes associated in the brain map...
...and the association is strengthened with each encounter.

There is a chapter in Norman Doidge MD's book 'The Brain that Changes Itself' that explores the process...
...I posted a review of the book here.

The BRAIN that Changes Itself...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Bottom line is the brain is 'plastic'...
...and the associations that are set in place can be reversed or changed.

I also think much religious opinion is misplaced...
...all the references on which anti-homosexuality are based are in context concerned with...
...suitability for a specific role (ie priest)...
...circumstances where genetic definition is of critical importance (ethnic survival)...
...condemnation of pagan or cultic practices that mitigate against the survival of 'the world of men'...
...and when it is specifically addressed as a past practice that is impossible for a person who is united to the Spirit (1 Cor 6:9-11).

The way I understand it, all flesh is in a state of condemnation...
...and only those whose spirit is united to the Spirit of Christ are not in this state...
...and for anyone in unity with the Spirit all categories of flesh are moot...
...and whatever definition of 'self' a person has before this unity is abandoned.


The focus of a Christian should be toward introducing another person to the 'foolishness' of the Cross of Christ...
...and then from within this unity of Spirit it will be determined how they confront this issue...
...it is not a Christian's role to condemn.



[edit on 13/1/10 by troubleshooter]

I was quite simply born with it and it was very evident even from my playing as a kid. While my brother had a collection of playmobil toys and cars I had a collection of little ponies. In primary school I felt an attraction for boys and was apathetic towards girls (I didn't know anything about straights, gays, bis or whatever at this time). Now I am an adult and I look very masculine, but I am as gay as it can be.





[edit on 13-1-2010 by Alexander1111]

Uhm, why do people take such an interest in the gay population? Why do you care? Why do you think they affect you? They are human beings just like you. Get your head out of your butt and realize that there are other people in this world too, people who may not be just like you. Gays feel towards their own sex the way that straights feel towards the opposite sex. What about that do people not understand? They are normal human beings.

People think they are so much better than gays that they have to "figure them out." I don't hear anyone trying to "figure out" why straight people are straight. Get over it! They like the same sex. What is there to question about it?

Gosh...how many times do we have to go over this.

I think some people are born homosexual like some people are born with missing limbs, blind, with a disease, etc. I see it as a "glitch" of sorts. On the other hand, some people choose to partake in homosexual activity and anyone saying that some homosexuals don't have a preference for homosexual relationships need to rexamine that thought and examine all the evidence that points to it being a choice.

Im not gay but my boyfriend sure is

Hahaha, no sorry. As a straight male I cant really comment on what it is that makes some people attracted to the same sex but it has been around since man was first here and is even in animals. The reason for the increase is simply because the population is increasing. It is just like how some people like seafood and others do not, it's just about personal opinions they are born with, it is not the devil nor god who makes someone gay, it's just.... Science?

I don't think it's a question that will ever have an answer because everyone is different, and we should embrace it.

I don't think it's hard at all to see that the OP'er didn't have any desire to hear any alternatives to her own views.

She just wanted to express her own views on the subject, in a passive way that wouldn't get her completely attacked.

That whole "You and I know that, but" response to the "devil makes people gay" comment shows that she is set in her belief that there is some unseen entity picking and choosing people to "curse" with gay desires.

The real problem here is that the average intelligence of humanity is still too low for the majority to understand and accept the reality of the world around them.

Until that scale tips, there will be more "voodoo magic genies granting magical prayer wishes and demons making everyone want to do bad things" type of garbage thinking than not.

Calm down people. I have the answer to all your questions or rather to Mamabeth's question. "if indeed was a serious question, which we will give the benefit of the doubt and honor it" but seriously, what a question (or line of wonder ....whatever)

Mamabeth, ... mamabeth.... ooohhh mamabeth... you see, the human experience is made of three components. Your body, your energy (what you understand as soul, even though you don't really understand it, but i'm no body to say that so i'll just keep it to myself) and your mind (your free will, or rather the will you impose by means of your body, which is not always who you think it is, if you get my drift)

now, each has a mission (how do i know this? really I don't know but this makes sense to me. After being for 34 years i have come to understand a thing or two about being one) your body to reach ultimate perfection, whatever that may be (through evolution) and your soul to reach some kind of level of consciousness (in other words to go back to source) that i haven't put my finger on yet but i'm getting there... anyway....

So you see, your body (which includes your physical brain) is ruled by the chemicals inside of you that control your mental balance which ultimately controls your actions, behaviors and decisions (external influences also alter your body) like someone said "WHAT FIRES TOGETHER, FUSES TOGETHER" for some reason, that makes sense..... when you experience something new, new connections are made in your brain and if you repeat that activity that connection between that neuron and that receptor just gets stronger.

Now i know you're no scientist and that you may not understand what I'm typing here so we'll keep it simple.

In short. Testosterone and Estrogen has a lot to do with sexual preferences. If you are a boy in the womb and you're borne with a high count of estrogen you will have a disposition to like the male sex gender. if you're a girl in the womb and you're born with a high count of testosterone then you'll have a disposition for liking females.... but i have come to realize also, after reading a lot of the comments in this thread, that your early life events can and will definitely help solidify this disposition. so with that same token you can say that a boy borne with a high count of estrogen can turn out be as masculine as randy savage macho man, because of what he went through in his childhood. coppish? so in essence is really a lot of things. but definitely not water comsumption.

Unless of course the government (throu adding # to the water we drink, which doesn't sound toooo crazy) is trying to create a nation of delicate gay man so there's no strong man to rebel against their agendas. does that sound crazy or what? now THAT'S food for thought...

Victorious.

Here is the link I found that made me wonder if it was a possibilty.
www.cbsnews.com...