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posted on May, 25 2004 @ 08:38 PM
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Are all modern day Jews really Israelites?

Simply because someone calls himself a Jew does not prove that he is a true physical descendant of Jacob/Israel. Just as people from many different races and nationalities are referred to as Americans merely by virtue of their being a United States citizen, so the Romans also referred to all the inhabitants of Judea as Judeans (Jews in modern parlance), regardless of whether they were Israelites by blood or not.

"John Hyrcanus conquered the whole of Edom and undertook the forced conversion of its inhabitants to Judaism (Joseph., Ant. XIII, 9, 1). Thenceforth the Edomites became a section of the Jewish people." (Encyclopedia Judaica, Vol. 6, (1971), p. 378; The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia (1977), p. 589).

"Thus, at this juncture of time the Edomites 'were incorporated with the Jewish nation, and their country was called by the Greeks and Romans 'Idumea' (Mark 3:8; Ptolemy, 'Geography,' v. 16)." (The Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. V. (1904), p. 41).


Flavius Josephus (Jewish 1st Century historian) - Antiquities of the Jews Book XIII

CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF EIGHTY-TWO YEARS,
FROM THE DEATH OF JUDAS MACCABEUS TO THE DEATH OF QUEEN ALEXANDRA.

CHAPTER 9.
HOW, AFTER THE DEATH OF ANTIOCHUS, HYRCANUS MADE AN EXPEDITION AGAINST SYRIA, AND MADE A LEAGUE WITH THE ROMANS. CONCERNING THE DEATH OF KING DEMETRIUS AND ALEXANDER.
1. BUT when Hyrcanus heard of the death of Antiochus, he presently made an expedition against the cities of Syria, hoping to find them destitute of fighting men, and of such as were able to defend them. However, it was not till the sixth month that he took Medaba, and that not without the greatest distress of his army. After this he took Samega, and the neighboring places; and besides these, Shechem and Gerizzim, and the nation of the Cutheans, who dwelt at the temple which resembled that temple which was at Jerusalem, and which Alexander permitted Sanballat, the general of his army, to build for the sake of Manasseh, who was son-in-law to Jaddua the high priest, as we have formerly related; which temple was now deserted two hundred years after it was built. Hyrcanus took also Dora and Marissa, cities of Idumea, and subdued all the Idumeans [Greek for Edomites, descendants of Esau - ed]; and permitted them to stay in that country, if they would circumcise their genitals, and make use of the laws of the Jews; and they were so desirous of living in the country of their forefathers, that they submitted to the use of circumcision, and of the rest of the Jewish ways of living; at which time therefore this befell them, that they were hereafter no other than Jews.

There is only one man in all of Scripture, only one person in the entire Bible whom Yahweh declares his hatred for personally. That mans name is Esau, the older twin brother of Jacob.

KJV Malachi 1:1-3
1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.
2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

And again in the New Testament:


KJV Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Flavius Josephus - The Wars of the Jews
Or
The History of the Destruction of Jerusalem Book II

CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF SIXTY-NINE YEARS.
FROM THE DEATH OF HEROD TILL VESPASIAN WAS SENT TO SUBDUE THE JEWS BY NERO.

CHAPTER 8.
ARCHELAUS'S ETHNARCHY IS REDUCED INTO A [ROMAN] PROVINCE. THE SEDITION OF JUDAS OF GALILEE. THE THREE SECTS.
2. For there are three philosophical sects among the Jews. The followers of the first of which are the Pharisees; of the second, the Sadducees; and the third sect, which pretends to a severer discipline, are called Essenes. These last are Jews by birth, and seem to have a greater affection for one another than the other sects have. These Essenes reject pleasures as an evil, but esteem continence, and the conquest over our passions, to be virtue. They neglect wedlock, but choose out other persons children, while they are pliable, and fit for learning, and esteem them to be of their kindred, and form them according to their own manners. They do not absolutely deny the fitness of marriage, and the succession of mankind thereby continued; but they guard against the lascivious behavior of women, and are persuaded that none of them preserve their fidelity to one man.

Implied in this passage is that many, if not most, of the Pharisees and Sadducees during this time period were not physically Jews (of the Tribe of Judah or any other Israelite tribe).

Just in case you werent aware of it, the word Jew which occurs in English Bibles is translated from the Greek Ioudaios, which would be better rendered either Yudeios or Yudean. And ,of course, the Hebrew is Yehudi, meaning a descendant of Yudah.

Yahshua HaMashiach (The Anointed One, Christ) was born of a woman descended from the tribes Yudah and Levi. He is the King of kings and Lord of lords, the Word of Yahweh made flesh.

Saul of Tarsus whose name was changed to Paul was from the tribe of Benyamin (Romans 11:1; Phillipians 3:14). Paul may have been an exception among the Pharisees, such as perhpaps Nicodemus was also.

KJV Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I dont believe that the majority of modern day Jews are the true descendants of Jacob/Israel. For the most part they are Edomites (descendats of Esau) and Khazars (Turks who converted to Judaism in the Middle Ages and became the German, Eastern European, and Russian Jews), amongst others, who seek to usurp the birthright and inheritance which they wrongly believe was stolen from them thousands of years ago. They claim to be the chosen people of God, but they may actually be something else entirely.

KJV Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

KJV Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Zohar, Section 3, Page 199b When Israel are by themselves and do not come up for judgement with the other peoples, God is lenient with them and makes atonement for them. But when they come up with the other peoples, God knows that Samael, the guardian of Esau, will come to call to mind their sins, and therefore He provides a remedy for them and for each sin He smites them and purifies them with chastisements little by little, but does not clear them out of the world. When they come up for judgement Samael brings up many records against them, but God brings forth the records of the sufferings which they have endured for each sin, so that they are all wiped off without any indulgence. Then Samael has no more power and can do nothing to them and he vanishes from the world with all his followers and peoples.

The Ascension of Isaiah (Jewish Pseudepigrapha) 11:41 On account of these visions and prophecies Sammael Satan sawed in sunder Isaiah the son of Amoz, the prophet, by the hand of Manasseh.




posted on May, 26 2004 @ 09:39 AM
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Great information and great post. Thanks, Ischyros. The parts about Esau are particularly eye-opening. Its a bit of Biblical history that is often glossed over.

As to the original topics I too agree that not all modern Jewish people are direct decendants of the tribes of Israel. If I'm not mistaken anyone who has a Jewish grandparent is considered Jewish, so a lot of 1/4's throughout history would have dilluted the bloodlines. Does anyone know more about the topic and know if any Jewish people attempt to trace their actually geneology back to the tribes?



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 09:56 AM
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This has been a long standing battle between the Jews and the Palestinians. There was just a special on over the weekend talking about how both sides are trying to prove the other has no claim to the land. While some of the arguments may sound good, the other side will put up their own which sound equally convincing. I believe they both have a claim to the region. As long as this type of bickering and disinfo continue, how's there ever going to be peace?



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 10:06 AM
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Well, the scholarly use of terms goes like this:

Hebrew
These are the people's that the Bible states were enslaved in Egypt. The Egyptian word for itinerant is something like "ap-i-ru," and Exodus describes the sons of Abraham going down to Egypt to buy grain during the great famine.

Israel.
1. The name for Jacob after he made his peace with God by wrestling with him in the dark.

2. The name for the nation composed of all of the Hebrew tribes (often said to be 12, but up to 17 tribes, depending on your definitions and genealogies. The unified Israel was ruled over by Saul, David, and Solomon successively.

3. Upon Solomon's death, the 10 northern tribes suceeeded, and continued to use the name Israel. They were caught between the colliding superpowers of Assyria and Egypt; were defeated by the Assyrians in 721 BC and subsequently dissapear from the pages of history.

Judah.
1. One of the 12 sons of Jacob. Not the oldest, but the one Jacob prophesied would beget kings.

2. The "2" tribes in the South, who maintained the old Kingdom after the 10 tribes rebelled. The southern tribes actually included parts of clans of Judah, Simeon, Benjamin, and Levi. They were all lumped together under the name of Judah eventually.

Modern ethnic Jews, by definition, are supposed to be descended from one of the clans that make up Judah. Names like Levi, Levin, etc. testify to a link to Levi; as does Cohen, Kahan, etc, which is the Hebrew name for priest.

The Southern tribes continued to use the name "Israel," laying claim to Solomon's glory. But accorting to the Bible, they only consisted of the southern tribes.

So the modern state of israel is actually descended from the ancient families of "Judah."

The word Jew/Yehud/Jeuf derives from the name Judah.

What happened to the 10 northern tribes? Surely that's already been posted on a thread somewhere . . .



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 10:22 AM
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Everyone can "lehitgayer", and become a Jew. I don't know how it is called in English though ("lehitagyer" is in Hebrew, I know that because I live in Israel).



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 10:29 AM
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I just saw commonsense's post, which got posted at the same time as mine.

From an anthropological viewpoint, although Arabs often claim to be descended from Ishmael, the Son of Abraham and half brother of Isaac, this doesn't seem to hold up under DNA research.

Modern Arabs seem to have the the most genetic similarity with people living along the southern Euphrates, While most non-Ashkenazic (non e. european) Jews show more close DNA links with Turks and Kurds from the north of the fertile Cresent. The Bible in two places refers to Abraham as an "Aramean," which is from north of the Euphrates.

See this article for more about DNA differences, especially between maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA verses the paternal y-chromasome:

www.khazaria.com...

if you bother to read the related articles you will notice the scientists reiterate the fact that race is a political rather than a genetic concept; and that there is more variation WITHIN races than between them.

Let's keep it focused on what people do, rather than who their momma was

Keep it real



posted on May, 26 2004 @ 04:53 PM
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Before I address some of the points which have been made, I believe the following verses and quotes will shed further light on this subject.

Again the words Yahweh spoke to us through the prophet Malachi:

KJV Malachi 1:1-5
1 The burden of the word of the LORD (Yahweh) to Israel by Malachi.
2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, the border of wickedness, and, the people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.
5 And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel.

Yahshua himself had some very interesting things to say about the descendants of Esau, who had during his time become a part of the Jewish nation:

KJV Matthew 23:27-39
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

KJV John 8:31-55
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

[Here these 'Jews' confess that although they are the children of Abraham, they have never been in bondage. But the Israelites were in bondage twice, once in Egypt, the ten northern tribes in Assyria - the vast majority of whom never returned to the land of Israel, and Yudah, Levi, and Benyamin in Babylon. These 'Jews' admit then to Yahshua that they are not descendants of Yacob, but rather, more likely, the descendants of Esau]

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

(See also Luke 11:44-54, Matthew 3:7 , & Matthew 12:34 )

KJV Matthew 27:24-26
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

KJV 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Paul must be speaking of the non-Israelite, Edomite 'Jews' in the above passage.


Herod, King of the Jews when Yahshua was born, was an Edomite. (Idumean is Greek for Edomite.)

King of Judea 40-4 B.C.; founder of the Herodian dynasty; born about 73 B.C.; son of Antipater, and, consequently, of Idumean origin. It is said that when he was a boy of twelve an Essene named Menahem predicted that he would reign over Judea. Indeed, nature had endowed him with the qualities of ascendency. He was of commanding presence; he excelled in physical exercises; he was a skilful diplomatist; and, above all, he was prepared to commitany crime in order to gratify his unbounded ambition.

(From www.jewishencyclopedia.com...=630&letter=H)

Antipater

Father of Herod I.; died 43 B.C. He was the son of Antipas, a convert to Judaism, who was governor of Iduma under the reigns of Alexander Jannus and his queen dowager Alexandra, and rendered himself serviceable to the Jewish rulers

(From www.jewishencyclopedia.com...=1598&letter=A)


Also, as I stated briefly in my first post, many of the Ashkenazi/Eastern European Jews are descended from the Khazar Turks who converted to Judaism in the Middle Ages.

"Medieval Kingdom of Khazaria, 650-1016
Over a thousand years ago, the far east of Europe was ruled by Jewish kings who presided over numerous tribes, including their own tribe: the Turkic Khazars. After their conversion, the Khazar people used Jewish personal names, spoke and wrote in Hebrew, were circumcised, had synagogues and rabbis, studied the Torah and Talmud, and observed Hanukkah, Pesach, and the Sabbath. The Khazars were an advanced civilization with one of the most tolerant societies of the medieval period. It hosted merchants from all over Asia and Europe. On these pages it is hoped that you may learn more about this fascinating culture."

(From www.khazaria.com...)

Khazars, Central Asian History

Related Category: Central Asian History

Khazars[khAzArz] Pronunciation Key, ancient Turkic people who appeared in Transcaucasia in the 2d cent. A.D. and subsequently settled in the lower Volga region. They emerged as a force in the 7th cent. and rose to great power. The Khazar empire extended (8th10th cent.) from the northern shores of the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea to the Urals and as far westward as Kiev. Itil, the Khazar capital in the Volga delta, was a great commercial center. The Khazars conquered the Volga Bulgars and the Crimea, levied tribute from the eastern Slavs, and warred with the Arabs, Persians, and Armenians. Religious tolerance was complete in the Khazar empire, which reached a relatively high degree of civilization. In the 8th cent. the Khazar nobility embraced Judaism, and Cyril and Methodius made some Christian converts among them in the 9th cent. In the 10th cent. the Khazars entered into friendly relations with the Byzantine Empire, which attempted to use them in the struggle against the Arabs. The Khazar empire fell when Sviatoslav, duke of Kiev, defeated its army in 965. The Khazars (or Chazars) are believed by some to have been the ancestors of many East European Jews.

(From reference.allrefer.com...)

So, obvioulsy, the Khazars, who make up a large percentatge (if not most) of the Ashkenazi Jews (and may possibly be descended from Edomites themselves) cannot possibly lay claim to a land that was never theirs in the first place.

Okay, so, I agree with Dr. Strangecraft that only three to four tribes were present in substantial numbers in the land of Israel during the post Babylonian Exile period (although Simeon is never actually mentioned in the Biblical record during this time so I can't be certain whether they were there or not). But what isn't often mentioned is that, almost two centuries prior to the Babylonian conquest of Judah, the Assyrian Empire conquered not only the entire northern kingdom of Israel (2 Kings 15:19-29, 17:3-6, 18:9-11; 1 Chronicles 5;6, 26) but also overran amost all of the southern kingdom of Judah during Hezekiah's time (2 Kings 18:13). Only Jerusalem was spared. Thus, the Assyrians would have taken captives of every tribe of Israel, not merely the ten northern tribes. After Assyria was conquered (by an alliance of Babylonians, Medes, and Scythians in 616 B.C.) many Israelites migrated northward from the Middle East and never returned to their former homes.

Now, I don't want to turn this into Lost Tribes thread necessarily, but where do you think all those pesky Germanic tribes that destroyed the Roman Empire came from?

Also, just because someone has a Hebrew sounding last name doesn't automatically make them an Israelite. This is a conspiracy. Lies, deception, changing of names to conceal the guilty are all involved.

[Edited on 26-5-2004 by Ischyros]



posted on May, 27 2004 @ 07:43 AM
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So, what, are saying that the Jews in Judea and Galilee during Jesus lifetime were actually Edomites and not Jews? That doesnt fit in with what Jesus says throughout the gospels, nor with the Pauline letters and Acts.

Matthew 23:30-32 refers to fathers, plural. The fathers referred to are the whole line of line of Patriarchs and ancestors of the faith. The Edomites didnt kill any prophets; the Jews themselves did that, so this passage cannot be made to apply in some way to Edomites more than to Israel.

Look at Jesus in Matthew 10:6: Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. So who did Peter Preach to? Paul says his mission is to the Children of Israel, not to some Edomites.

Why does Jesus refer to his audience in John 8 and elsewhere as Jews if they were really Edomites? Surely, he could know the difference!

The crowd arguing with Jesus claims Abraham as their father because Abraham was the recipient of the covenant by which they believe themselves saved. They wouldnt refer to Jacob or Esau regardless.

If Jesus is sent to be the salvation of Israel, Isaiah 6, then why is he preaching to all these people you say are Edomites? Shouldnt he have appeared in Southern Russia to reach the people you are aiming at?

* * * *

Personally, Im done with this thread. Youve reached your conclusion in advance, and are willing to abuse the text, to torture it until it says what you want it to.

Like Jesus said, you gladly swallow a camel, and then strain at a gnat.



posted on May, 27 2004 @ 10:07 PM
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No, I'm not saying that all the Jews in the land of Israel at the time of Yahshua were Edomites. I'm only saying that there were many Edomites living amongst the Israelites in the land of Judah and referred to themselves as Judeans because they lived there and because they had converted to the Jewish religion. Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 plainly say that there are people (blasphemers in fact) who say they are Jews but are not. There were all also evil men of Yehudah amongst those whom Yahshua addressed, but that doesn't mean they were in the majority.

Besides, if you recall, the Israelites had never entirely expunged the Canaanites out of their land. Who do you think it was that was encouraging the Israelites to worship pagan gods during their times of rebellion against Yahweh. The Apocryphal book of Susana actually refers to Canaanites masquerading as Jews.

KJV Susana 1:8-9, 55-57
[8] And the two elders saw her going in every day, and walking; so that their lust was inflamed toward her.
[9] And they perverted their own mind, and turned away their eyes, that they might not look unto heaven, nor remember just judgments.

55] And Daniel said, Very well; thou hast lied against thine own head; for even now the angel of God hath received the sentence of God to cut thee in two.
[56] So he put him aside, and commanded to bring the other, and said unto him, O thou seed of Chanaan, and not of Juda, beauty hath deceived thee, and lust hath perverted thine heart.
[57] Thus have ye dealt with the daughters of Israel, and they for fear companied with you: but the daughter of Juda would not abide your wickedness.

There is also evidence from the Bible of Edomites living amongst the Israelites during the time of Saul and David:

KJV 1 Samuel 22:7-18
7 Then Saul said unto his servants that stood about him, Hear now, ye Benjamites; will the son of Jesse give every one of you fields and vineyards, and make you all captains of thousands, and captains of hundreds;
8 That all of you have conspired against me, and there is none that sheweth me that my son hath made a league with the son of Jesse, and there is none of you that is sorry for me, or sheweth unto me that my son hath stirred up my servant against me, to lie in wait, as at this day?
9 Then answered Doeg the Edomite, which was set over the servants of Saul, and said, I saw the son of Jesse coming to Nob, to Ahimelech the son of Ahitub.
10 And he inquired of the Lord for him, and gave him victuals, and gave him the sword of Goliath the Philistine.
11 Then the king sent to call Ahimelech the priest, the son of Ahitub, and all his father's house, the priests that were in Nob: and they came all of them to the king.
12 And Saul said, Hear now, thou son of Ahitub. And he answered, Here I am, my lord.
13 And Saul said unto him, Why have ye conspired against me, thou and the son of Jesse, in that thou hast given him bread, and a sword, and hast inquired of God for him, that he should rise against me, to lie in wait, as at this day?
14 Then Ahimelech answered the king, and said, And who is so faithful among all thy servants as David, which is the king's son in law, and goeth at thy bidding, and is honourable in thine house?
15 Did I then begin to inquire of God for him? be it far from me: let not the king impute any thing unto his servant, nor to all the house of my father: for thy servant knew nothing of all this, less or more.
16 And the king said, Thou shalt surely die, Ahimelech, thou, and all thy father's house.
17 And the king said unto the footmen that stood about him, Turn, and slay the priests of the Lord: because their hand also is with David, and because they knew when he fled, and did not shew it to me. But the servants of the king would not put forth their hand to fall upon the priests of the Lord.
18 And the king said to Doeg, Turn thou, and fall upon the priests. And Doeg the Edomite turned, and he fell upon the priests, and slew on that day fourscore and five persons that did wear a linen ephod.

So, I'm not saying that all the Jews were Edomites then, and I'm not saying that all the modern Jews are Edomites now. However, I believe that just as in Yahshua's day when the Edomite Herod and his progeny were the kings of Judea, so also today we find that Edomites are dominating what remains of the true stock of Israel amongst those who call themselves Jews.

Also, how do we know that Yahshua did not visit the other trbes of Israel in the various places they had been scattered to? The Bible is largely silent on the years preceeding Yahshua's ministry. The main reason Yahshua went to Jerusalem was to die.

KJV Luke 13:31-35
31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod [An Idumean/Edomite] will kill thee.
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.



posted on May, 28 2004 @ 06:37 AM
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Many Christians (and many other people besides) believe that all Jews are the chosen people of God. They also believe that all those who bless the 'Jews' will be blessed and all those who curse the Jews will be cursed.

Any claim the Jews may have on the land of Israel is null and void if they aren't actually descended from Jacob. Some of the Jews may be Israelites, but I believe that most Jewish Zionists are Edomtes (of course there are also non-Jews who are Zionists as well, as evidenced by the Bush II Administration).

So, at the very least, I would like people to think about this and do the research for myself. I grew up believing that all Jews were Israelites (and that all Israelites were Jews), so I supported the nation-state of Israel almost unquestioningly unitl Yahweh began to show me the truth about all this. Now, I realize that there are racist, hateful people who take this idea too far and proclaim that all Jews are evil, but I am not one of those people.

(By the way, all the Bible verses I've quoted are from the King James Authorized Version.)



posted on Jun, 19 2004 @ 01:32 AM
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Here's a link to a webpage which provides more detail on this subject.

www.meguiar.addr.com...



posted on Jun, 19 2004 @ 02:43 PM
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Sit tight, folks, here it comes----so read it carefully....

[and think about it for a while before you blast off a visceral answer...after all this subject is touchy touchy touchy to some people on this thread......]

Modern day Israelis are of mixed European (non Semitic) Ashkenazi descent for the most part and have more of a "land claim" to the area around present day Kiev in the Ukraine (that is, if you base any of their specious Zionist claims purely on bloodline lineage) than they would have any legitimate claim to the West bank or Gaza, or the land of "Israel" generally as it appears on the modern western map today.

Only "Jews" who are descended from the socalled "Sephardim" and from the Ethiopian Fallashas would have any tangible blood connexion to claiming that part of the world at all based on blood lines, and only tentatively at best --------considering 3,000 years of Sephardi and fallasha miscegenation (interbreeding) with the goyim" (non Jews).

In point of fact, over 90% of Modern Israelis are NOT related by blood AT ALL to ANY of the varoius Israelitish clans (whether you count 10 or 12 or 16) that were in existence 3,000 years ago, and any argument supporting such land claims based on race or blood lines is fallacious.

People tend to use the word "Jew" very loosely today, especially in "dumbed down America" and most people do NOT know the origin of the word, nor do they understand that 90% of people who call themselves "Jews" today (some 12 million persons, just a few less than the total number of Kurds in the world) are descended from 9th century AD (non Semitic) Ashkenazim "converts" in present day Kiev (Ukraine) formerly the kingdom of Khazaria---hemmed in as they were with Byzantine Christians fighting to the West and militant Muslims fighting from the East, the King of Khazaria (renamed himwelf Joseph) converted to Judaeism in 780 AD (from solar paganism) because he wanted to steer a "Bava Metzia" ("middle gate") between two warring entities.

For more than 200 years Khazaria was a propsperous "middle man" kingdom in negotiating trade (and war weapons, slaves etc.) between the two warring Empires until "Christian"Moscow, tired of having a middle man selling weapons and materiel to both sides, came swooping down in the year 1003 AD and destroyed Khazaria, sending 1 million NON SEMITIC OFTEN BLUE EYED Jewish converts westward in the direction of present day Lithuania, Poland, Latvia, Hungary, Estonia, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, England and other places in Russia.

Even most Modern Day "Jews" are often under the delusion f that they are somehow blood related to the Israelite clans...and are therefore "chosen by their God (YHWH) " in some magical way.

The physical remnants of the socalled Israelites are called Sephardim (from the Hebrew for Spain: Sefard) and had been wandering abroad since before Rome again destroyed the province of "Palestina" in 136 AD (during the 2nd Revolt against Rome under Shimeon Bar Kosiba ("Bar Kokhba") which also failed.

It is estimated that 900,000 Palestinian "descendants" were annhialiated between the two Wars of Rebellion against Rome (AD 70 and AD 136), virtually exterminating any "Israelite" blood-descendants.

One could say that anything closely related to "Israelite blood" in any one group of people today is virtually extinct---and oddly, the population that shows the GREATEST GENETIC AFFINITY to the ancient "Israelite" blood (if you read the modern Genetic Medical journals this year) is....hang on to your hats.....the present day Palestinian population !!

Maybe the modern day Israelis should think about that one (or read some of the latest modern Genetic Research journals now coming out in print!!)

Today, less than 1 Million persons (less than 10% of world Jewry) are comprised of "Sefardi and Fallasha (Ethiopian) Jews" --two groups who might still have some traces of the ancient "semitic" blood traceable back to the Israelites (like all Arabs, descended from Abraham as one of the descendants of "Shem") , have been so intermixed by "breeding with the goyim" for the past 3,000 years, that the "Jew" today is no longer a "race", but mearly a religion.

The modern day Israeli is "non Semitic" if you were to do blood scans and genetic tracing as some have done, to their horror when the results came back. Few of these stories however ever get published without being pulled from the shelves

And even a full blooded the "Israelite" was also not racial pure. David's grandmother "Ruth" was a Moabitess... and the Torah specifically states in words placed into the Mouth of Moses (in late fake-Mosaic Hebrew however) :

NO MOABITE SHALL EVER ENTER THE CONGREGATION OF ISRAEL, NOT EVEN BEYOND THE 10th GENERATION, EVER...

The tribal clan chief ("king") David was a member of this mixed blood confederation of Judah, with all of his own Moabite blood mixed in, and thus according to the torah could not even call himself an Israelite !!

Digging further back into the oral clan history, Abraham purportedly said,

A Wandering Syrian ready to starve was my Father:
a Cannanite was my mother (i.e. two gentile, non Jewish nations)

testifying that the whole nation "of Israel" was comprised of foreign blood elements, and "there was nothing special about their bloodline" despite all the racist rhetoric you hear from "Jewish" and "non Jewish" Zionists today...

Curiously, name of the (Tribes of) "Judah" does not even occur in the oldest writings in the Old Testament (e.g. the Song of Deborah) but seems to have been a large "fake tribe" which was later made up of smaller, less politically powerful tribelets.

And its "fake" origin is also "made up" in the Bible to account for its political dominance after the fall of the 10 northern tribes in 721-701 BC when Assyria attacked Palestine and annexed the Northern Kingdom.

Read WHO WROTE THE BIBLE by Elliot Friedman for a layman's backgrounder on the subject of: HISTORY CAN BE MADE UP...IF YOU KNOW HOW...

The socalled "Old Testament" was not even set into recogniseable form until the time of Ezra in 480 BC long after the events it purports to relate, and long after the "tribal confederation" of Yehudah had established dominance in Palestine (they survived the Assyrian attacks to continue on politically until 587 BC).

The "Winners" generally end up writing the "history" as "history" shows...and they usually wind up by writing history in "their favour.."

Now, take a look at the very word : "Judah" which derives etymologically from the Heb. "Yehudah" (the legendary "4th son of Yakkov") but actually refers to MORE THAN ONE TRIBELET in ancient times: the name derives from "Yad" meaning "hand" and the cognate "Yahad" meaning "tribal joining of hands" i.e. an amphyctiony or tribal "confederation".

The Greek word "Iudaioi" ("judeans") from which we derive "Jew" from today, is the translated equivalent of Yehudah---i.e. the many tiny unrelated tribelets that comprised Yehudah.

Even Michah 5:2 says "Bethlechem-Ephratha, you who are not the least among all the tribelets ("clans") of Judah... " so the tribe of Judah was not ONE tribe but many. And Zechariah and others in the OT refer to the "clans" of Yehudah.

Notice the RACIALLY MIXED COMPOSITION of the CLANS OF JUDAH:

Kalebites (in the territory around Hebron; Josh. 14:13-15; Judg. 1:20), Kenites (in the area around Arad; Judg. 1:16), Kennizzites (in the environs of Debir; Josh. 15:15-19; Judg. 1:11-15), Jerahmeelites, and Othnielites.

NB There is NO RACIAL PURITY AMONG EVEN THE ANCIENT TRIBELETS OF JUDAH (i.e. Iudaoio, ancient "Jews").

If you read the socalled SONG OF DEBORAH in Judges chapter 5:14-19 you will notice something rather strange: THE TRIBE OF JUDAH (YEHUDAH) IS COMPLETELY MISSING FROM THE LIST OF 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL! (so is the tribe of Gad and the tribe of Levi)

The tribes mentioned are: Benjamin, Issachar, Zebulun, Reuben, Asher, Dan, Naphtali, & Ephraim---FOLLOWED BY FOUR UNKNOWN TRIBES (presumably to keep the astrological number 12 in tact):

9. GILEAD (not one of the "big" 12 in the Torah, unless related to GAD)
10. MACHIR ( ??)
11. BARAK (??)
12. MEROZ (??)

So much for the so called 12 Tribes.

If you read the Book of Revelation chapter 12 (written during the 1st Jewish Revolt against Rome in AD 67-68) you'll notice Manasseh mentioned as a full tribe and the Tribe of DAN completely missing altogether...

It is clear the ancient writers did not have a clear idea of their true history, but were trying to force the magic number 12 on the tradition by whatever means necessary (12 being astrologically signficant, and related to an ancient prophecy that Abraham's sons would be as the Constellations of Heaven...notice how Ishmael--legendary father of the Arabs--- also has 12 sons...)

Even as far back as the time of David on, the confederation of Judah had incorporated considerable numbers of gentile, non-Israelites, leading to an alternation between pro-Canaanite, non-Yahwist religious policies on the part of some kings and the reversal of such policies in periodic religious reforms.

Adding to that was the fact that Palestine had been run over so many times by older, larger, more sophisticated Gentile nations (Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Syria, Rome) whose soldiers and inhabiants were imported into the land and married into the local population, further eroding any sense of tribal unity based on bloodline.

Witness the socalled Samaritan Schism in the north after 420 BC. which was based on blood differences as well as ritual separateness (i.e. Mount Gerazim verses Mount Moriah, see the Gospel of John chapter 3)

Here is what the "Jewish Encyclopaedia" has to say on the subject (as a rounded overview from their own publishers)

"It is a common assumption, ineradicable even in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, that "Jews" today constitute a "race, a homogeneous entity" that is easily recognizable....it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they once occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of non semitic communities. . . .Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms.

(Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).

So not only is the ancient Israelite ampohyctionies non-identifiable with any accuracy, even more so are those who call themselves their "descendants" and therfore have some kind of "divine right" to the land of Israel.

Whatever National Borders the Community of Nations gave to the Nation of Israel in 1948 (following an understandable worldwide sympathy of the after effects of the German Holocaust) should NEVER be regarded as somethning that has anything to do with made up Divine Promises in Israelite folklore (i.e. the so called "bible"--).

Modern day illegal settlement building and other forms of illegal and immoral land-grabbing in "Israel" (e.g. permanently moving perimeter walls deeper and deeper into the West Bank on some phony notion of national security) with the lame excuse that they are doing this because "GOD gaev us this land" purportedly based on some phony racial links to the "Israelites" (who made up most of their "glorious and divine" history 1000 years after the events they relate---to judge from the evidence of modern archaelogy) has no place in the modern world and will only perpetuate the slaughter of innocent lives which is now seemingly out of control in the region.



posted on Jun, 27 2004 @ 01:33 AM
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Well, regardless of the history or the labels that different ethnic groups got at certain times in history, both Israel (majority Jewish) and Palestine (majority Muslim) exist, and are there now. Israel and Palestine are going to have to learn to get along and co-exist, or they will destroy each other. It's their collective choice... and no one can make it for them.



posted on Aug, 14 2011 @ 01:25 PM
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Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Not sure about this, but I find it interesting nonetheless:

עֵשָׂו עֲמָלֵק
Esau Amalek = 616 in Hebrew Gematria.
Overview of Hebrew Gematria - www.hebrew4christians.com...
Genesis 25 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version) - www.blueletterbible.org.../25
Exodus 17 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version) - www.blueletterbible.org.../8

revelation mark of the beast 616 - Google Search

Or make Amalek plural by writing it Amalekim in Hebrew
עֵשָׂו עֲמָלֵקים
Esau Amalekim = 666

KJV Malachi 1:2-3
2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Exodus 17:16 For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.

Esau
E = Ayin = 70
Sa = Shin = 300
U/W = Waw (Vav in Modern Hebrew) = 6
= 376

A = Ayin = 70
Ma = Mem = 40
Le = Lamed = 30
K = Qof = 100
= 240

= 616

I = Yod = 10
M = Mem = 40

= 666

* Note - Not all vowels are written in Hebrew, or other Semitic languages, such as Arabic, for that matter.

Can this possibly be mere coincidence?



posted on Aug, 14 2011 @ 01:25 PM
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For those who aren't aware, Amalek was Esau's grandson.

Genesis 36
[1] Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom.
[4] And Adah bare to Esau Eliphaz; and Bashemath bare Reuel;
[12] And Timna was concubine to Eliphaz Esau's son; and she bare to Eliphaz Amalek: these were the sons of Adah Esau's wife.
[16] Duke Korah, duke Gatam, and duke Amalek: these are the dukes that came of Eliphaz in the land of Edom; these were the sons of Adah.

Amalek's mother Timna was a Hori or Horite of the Horim.

Genesis 36
[20] These are the sons of Seir the Horite, who inhabited the land; Lotan, and Shobal, and Zibeon, and Anah,
[21] And Dishon, and Ezer, and Dishan: these are the dukes of the Horites, the children of Seir in the land of Edom.
[22] And the children of Lotan were Hori and Hemam; and Lotan's sister was Timna.

The Horites/Horim were not entirely human.

Genesis 14:1-6
1 And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations;
2 That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.
3 All these were joined together in the vale of Siddim, which is the salt sea.
4 Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.
5 And in the fourteenth year came Chedorlaomer, and the kings that were with him, and smote the Rephaims [usually translated "giants" in the KJV] in Ashteroth Karnaim, and the Zuzims in Ham, and the Emims in Shaveh Kiriathaim,
6 And the Horites in their mount Seir, unto El-paran, which is by the wilderness.

Deuteronomy 2:10-12, 20-23
10 The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims;
11 Which also were accounted giants [Rephaim], as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.
12 The Horims also dwelt in Seir beforetime; but the children of Esau succeeded them, when they had destroyed them from before them, and dwelt in their stead; as Israel did unto the land of his possession, which the LORD gave unto them.
20 (That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims;
21 A people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; but the LORD destroyed them before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead:
22 As he did to the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, when he destroyed the Horims from before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead even unto this day:
23 And the Avims which dwelt in Hazerim, even unto Azzah, the Caphtorims, which came forth out of Caphtor, destroyed them, and dwelt in their stead.)

But as we saw from the record of Genesis ch. 36, The Edomites did not utterly destroy the Horites/Horim, but at least one of their number was made a concubine to Esau's son, Eliphaz.

The Rephaim and other tribes such as the Horim were descended from the Nephilim. They bore the seed of the serpent, being the product of the intermarriage between fallen angels and human women.






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