Vatican says 'Avatar' is no masterpiece

reply to post by Skyfloating

Some of you are just as intolerant and blind as some Catholics/Christians are.

I'm sorry.. I don't usually say things like that, but when it comes to the Vatican telling us not to 'worship' nature...that is the last straw for me.

I do have a bit of a rage problem, I must admit. It only flares up when something like this really gets to me.

reply to post by impaired


The church would never endorse something that might cause them to lose worshippers/income!

The Popemobile is due for an oilchange and that costs money don't ya know.

It certainly is no surprise to me that the Vatican would say something like that, Any corporation would do the same thing if their business was being attacked.

The Vatican doesn't like people to worship the real religion that is part of us. Nature and the energy of the earth we live on.

Great quote from someone I recently listened to.

"why should we pay to live in a place we where born on"

Originally posted by hadriana
My ol' pagan mind cannot understand this concept of worshipping nature a lot of you keep mentioning as 'putting it on a pedestal' or 'bowing down to it' because EVERYTHING is nature. People are nature's creatures too.

The Judeo-Christian mindset goes back to the idea of people are separate from nature and dominate over it. I guess that is why some think it so horrid?

My mindset is that I am already part of it.

Very well said.

It appears the scientific field of anthropology agrees with your mindset as well.

Don't know if you've ever read this book but it is an absolute masterpiece:

Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by Doomsday 2029


If more people on this planet got their ability to read between the lines back, instead of just reacting on such a base level, we'd be a lot closer to the utopia we all seem to desire.

We've had that ability conditioned out of us.

Peace



[edit on 13-1-2010 by Dr Love]

Originally posted by impairedTheir's is right and every other one is wrong.

Not to go off topic, but I really need to say something about this. But really, is it that difficult? What do you think the word believe means? Christians believe that Christianity is the right choice, why else would they be Christians? The same for Jews, Muslims, Hindus and yes, even Atheists. (Side note, how many Atheists out there think they're right and every other one is wrong?)

/rant.

Now on to what's being said regarding the Vaticant and the movie "Avatar". It was a great movie, but a masterpeice? Neah... I don't think so. And that's as far as I can agree with the Vaticant on the topic. It's not wrong to love nature, it's not wrong to want to prevent the destruction of nature. I wouldn't say I worshipped it, but I certainly love nature and want to see it preserved as long as earth exists.

Originally posted by Dr Love
What's even scarier than the reverse psychology being used by the Vatican is the way people are letting themselves become completely consumed by this movie.

Peace

[edit on 12-1-2010 by Dr Love]

Exactly!!!

There was a few threads that talked about the documentary "Kymatica", if everyone would just watch that they would understand a bit more about our relationship with nature and the earth and the universe as a whole.

Then there is the documentary "The Ring of Power" also known on ATS as "The Hidden Empire", that will explain that the Vatican controls most of what goes on on the planet. I said most, not all. The three cities, the Holy Trinity of Empire, Vatican city, inner London and Washington "D.C.".

One is military, i.e. D.C. one controls religion, i.e. The Vatican, and the other controls all financial, i.e. London. It's really that simple.

I don't watch movies, I watch documentaries and do research on the subject matter. We came from nature, and we are also the only freaks of nature, we don't fit in here. I get my jollies mountain biking and motocross riding.

[edit on 13-1-2010 by daddio]

Breaking news from Pandora: The Vatican is no masterpiece either.

Seriously, a good rule of thumb: if the Vatican speaks out against a movie, then you can bet it is well worth seeing.

reply to post by impaired


Mark Twain - "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court"

"There you see the hand of that awful power, the Roman Catholic Church . In two or three little centuries it had converted a nation of men to a nation of worms. Before the day of the Church's supremacy in the world, men were men, and held their heads up, and had a man's pride and spirit and independence; and what of greatness and position a person got, he got mainly by achievement, not by birth. But then the Church came to the front, with an axe to grind; and she was wise, subtle, and knew more than one way to skin a cat--or a nation; she invented "divine right of kings," and propped it all around, brick by brick, with the Beatitudes-- wrenching them from their good purpose to make them fortify an evil one; she preached (to the commoner) humility, obedience to superiors, the beauty of self-sacrifice; she preached (to the commoner) meekness under insult; preached (still to the commoner, always to the commoner) patience, meanness of spirit, non-resistance under oppression; and she introduced heritable ranks and aristocracies, and taught all the Christian populations of the earth to bow down to them and worship them."

Don't forget "The Golden Compass" - another almost banned movie. If they had the power to ban it - for sure it would have been.
Here : www.primitivism.com...





[edit on 13-1-2010 by pai mei]

the catholic church is completely corrupt and anything they say can be disregarded as rubbish in my opinion

Without nature, we wouldn't be here. We can measure nature in every way - we can't do this for a god. So, thank nature for your existence, not a god.

It's hilarious that the head of a religion that's base root traditions are within sun and nature worship would criticize Avatar. I do agree with one thing though, it was definitely no masterpiece. The entire film was just a uber-conventional, dare I say cliche story that has been told 12 years earlier in a Disney film called Pocahontas. It makes no attempt to do anything original, takes no risk in it's story telling, and produces only flat one-dimensional characters and a been-there-done-that storyline with in-your-face super liberal tree-huggery.

But it had shiny graphics, so of course everybody here will disagree with me.

Elvis Costello once said, (and I apologize if I am paraphrasing): "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."
This kind of thinking applies to the Vatican criticizing movies.

The Catholic church has spent centuries crushing/absorbing the so called "earth religions" in the fight to push its own dogma. Avatar was a reminder of these religions, so I am not surprised they lashed out at it.

reply to post by WolfofWar


I agree some of the writing was dated and seemed too conventional, but I thought that much dramatic destruction in this kind of movie was novel enough and drove the point home. Because you know while I was watching that, I wasn't thinking so much of the rain forests (though I was during other parts of the movie) but about the fact that our military actually uses that kind of weaponry against populations of people. We hear about those kinds of things actually happening between fellow humans in different parts of the world, like for instance when we carpet bomb residential areas because we think "insurgents" are hiding in them, and our military does not do body counts afterward. If someone wanted to count all the people killed, another organization would have to risk coming in to do it, or someone there would have to estimate it and give hearsay to some authority or media.

But to date we have by some counts (ie www.iraqbodycount.org... ) there have been 100,000 Iraqi civilian deaths since the war there began. And these are only the documented deaths. The same website linked above has on its main page easy to see, "We don't do body counts," stated by US commanding general Tommy Franks. When they do bombings in civilian areas, and don't count the casualties, how complete do you think our documentation is?

This thread is idiotic and it depresses me that this is the current level of ATS.

Of course the Vatican doesn't support the worship of nature. They are Catholic. If they supported the worship of Nature, they would be Pagans or Animists.

Want to know why Pagans don't support the worship of Christ? It's because their Pagans. Want to know why Buddhists don't worship Allah? It's because their Buddhists.

The Catholic church, like many religious entities, believes in an objective universe. It is their opinion that the way to salvation is through Christ. They believe that worshiping anything but God is wrong. There is nothing nefarious about their belief that worshiping nature is wrong, just as their is nothing insidious about a Pagans belief that Catholicism is an improper or fractured expression of truth.

If the Church did not believe the way that it does it wouldn't be the Catholic Church. Just as if people of the Jewish faith felt that there is no God they would be atheists and if Protestants felt that the Papacy was truly instituted by Christ they would be Catholics.

To condemn the Church or any of it's offices for stating what everyone should know they believe (that it is dangerous to worship nature) is ridiculous. On the other hand, the OP is clearly an excuse for many posters to let fly with their anti-Catholicism, so for many the content of the OP is irrelevant.

Eric

Originally posted by EricD
They believe that worshiping anything but God is wrong.

Yes, and people who aren't Catholic believe they are also "wrong."

But it is possible to believe someone is wrong and still accept and respect their existence anyway. Why can't the Catholic Church just do that?

It can restate its own sentiments and beliefs if that makes them feel more comfortable, but I think it's childish that they have to basically condemn anyone and everyone in the world every time they do something that "offends" them. No one pays the Vatican to review movies, so their statements are obviously politically motivated and not an honest review.

Originally posted by bsbray11

1 - Yes, and people who aren't Catholic believe they are also "wrong."

2 - But it is possible to believe someone is wrong and still accept and respect their existence anyway. Why can't the Catholic Church just do that?

3 - It can restate its own sentiments and beliefs if that makes them feel more comfortable, but I think it's childish that they have to basically condemn anyone and everyone in the world every time they do something that "offends" them. No one pays the Vatican to review movies, so their statements are obviously politically motivated and not an honest review.

1 - Of course. That was part and parcel of what I was saying. If they didn't believe that Catholic beliefs were wrong, they would be Catholics.

2 - They do. As a matter of fact, the Catholic Church is under constant attack from those closer to the fringe of Christianity who believe that the Church's ecumenism is a harbinger of a one-world religion that they believe is a harbinger of the end times.

3 - The fact that you think that they 'condemn anyone and everyone in the world every time they do something that offends them' is telling.

If they believe that a movie that is en route to being one of the most popular (and maybe the single most popular) cinematic effort of all time is encouraging or may encourage the worship of nature than it is completely logical that they would speak up about it. They would be derelict in their duties if they didn't.

Eric

Originally posted by EricD

Originally posted by bsbray11
2 - But it is possible to believe someone is wrong and still accept and respect their existence anyway. Why can't the Catholic Church just do that?

2 - They do. As a matter of fact, the Catholic Church is under constant attack from those closer to the fringe of Christianity who believe that the Church's ecumenism is a harbinger of a one-world religion that they believe is a harbinger of the end times.

I fail to make the connection between other Christians attacking the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church attacking the movie Avatar and everyone who will worship nature.

3 - The fact that you think that they 'condemn anyone and everyone in the world every time they do something that offends them' is telling.

And what does it tell you? It almost sounds like you are Catholic yourself. You can save it if you feel like preaching to me, I've probably already heard anything you'd consider telling me.

If they believe that a movie that is en route to being one of the most popular (and maybe the single most popular) cinematic effort of all time is encouraging or may encourage the worship of nature than it is completely logical that they would speak up about it. They would be derelict in their duties if they didn't.

That's what a Christian would say.

I say, keep it to yourself.

We don't come to you telling you we're disgusted every time we see a reference to Christianity in public, though to be honest every time I do see a Christian relic in public it only reminds me of the darker periods of humanity and though it doesn't bother me I can't say it is pleasant, either.

Freedom of religion. It means get out of my face already about it.

Understanding the Catholic Side

As much as I loved the movie and look forward to owning the DVD, all you Religion-haters need to see the other side too. Rather than calling them child-rapists and murderers, try seeing things from their perspective for a moment, get some tolerance.

Most Catholics are conservative middle-class. The movie first slanders the image of the conservative by portraying him as part of the "military-industrial complex", an "evil capitalist" working with a warmonger. It then goes on to take rituals reminiscent of Vooodoo, which Catholics consider demonic, an glorifies them as spiritually superior. All this is presented in a shock-and-awe way, along with some of the most beautiful and emotionally uplifting pictures ever seen.

Knowing catholics and how they think I can imagine they are just a little more than pissed

Im on neither side of this Debate, I only post to provide the middle-ground and call for more tolerance on both sides of the table.