Pope slams gay marriage as 'attack' on creation

reply to post by moocowman


You seem to misunderstand me but that is okay, while we will never agree and both swear we are the right ones we can agree to disagree. However, You seem to or implied that I think I will be gone in a twinkle of an eye, When I feel I am the worst type of sinner there could ever be. I dont feel I am great or privileaged, But I will say what I need to say and I do belive what I say is right

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by Avenginggecko

 

Do you know where that teaching came from? Jesus was talking to Pharisees(?) and they asked him what he thought of taxes, trying to trip him up because they wanted to kill him for his teachings.

Jesus asked for a coin, and he said you see who is on that coin, (Caesers was on that coin, and that’s when he said give what is Caesers to Caeser and God what is Gods... He did not mention anything about separation of church or state. We are Gods and that is what he came here to give God...

How do you get Separation from church and state out of that? Do you Cherry Pick the bible?

[edit on 11-1-2010 by poedxsoldiervet]

How do you not get separation of Church and State from that? He's clearly making the distinction between the two. And yes, I am aware of the situation. It's not "cherry picking" when the quote and the story around it fit perfectly with the situation.

Cherry-picking would be using the Bible to condemn homosexuality but not eating shellfish, wearing clothes made from multiple fabrics, women who bathe upstream during their period, planting your crops in the same field too often, etc. etc.

Deathshield

Very good point. I think the thing most of my fellow abrahimic-theists do not understand is that a secular government is what is preventing us from having some corrupt politician declare christianity, islam, or even Norse Mythology illegal and punishable by law. In fact the catholic church used to punish practicing christians for teaching out of the bible instead of Approved catholic doctrines. A separation of Church and state is vital to religious freedom.

That's another great point and an extremely important reason why Church and State should be completely separate. One of the core beliefs of Christianity is humanity's free will, and when you have a theocratic government ruling a nation (and to be fair also Atheist dictatorships), it's not possible to adequately allow people to make an informed decision free of fear and persecution.

[edit on 11-1-2010 by Avenginggecko]

Originally posted by pumpkinorange

Okay, but to clarify...God in the Bible says he is SPIRIT. Not flesh. So the concept that we are "created in God's image" is likely more complex than sex organs. The attributes we share with God (given that he is spirit and not flesh) are perhaps spiritual or other non-flesh attributes, e.g. love, self-awareness, designing/creating, problem-solving, among others.

Likely, Perhaps. Speculative, Interpretive.

Jesus was God in flesh.

Created in God's image. Jesus was the son of God, but also God. Jesus, I presume, had a penis. I fail to see where my point is any less valid than yours. You have your interpretation, and I have mine. Neither are fact.

- - - - -

I see no reason to respond further with literalist bible thumpers. It takes a speshul type of person to claim an opinion of vileness in another human, then in the same breath claim not to judge. They deliberately choose to view their ignorant hypocrisy as truth, and we get the fun of laughing at them.

Originally posted by whaaa
I just find it strange that anyone would presume to know what is best for the planet in reguards to creation; then in turn cover up, deny, and minimalize a problem that devistated so many lives. Pedophelia
Pedophelia isn't an "attack" on creation? sheesh!

I have to agree with aspects of what is being said here by some. Clarifying my own thoughts as we go along...let us separate for a minute the pope from evangelical Christians, those who believe the Bible and the Bible alone are infallable. When such Christians are speaking, they should not be citing as infallable anything that isn't in the Bible. Rejoice, ATSers as this makes evangelical Christians the most transparent and easily "predictable" of any "religious" persons you will find if that is any comfort to you. Now there may still be some problems with such issues as Israel and disagreements about who or what is Israel.

Contrast this with Catholicism and immediately you will find that (as we know from the Reformation) a KEY disagreement was the issue of infallability. Martin Luther said the Bible ALONE is infallable. The Church in Rome (Catholicism) said no, it's the Bible PLUS what the infallable statements by the Roman Church/Pope that together constitute the infallable word of God. (BTW, on any particular matter, Rome/the Pope clarifies whether their statments are to be considered infallable or lesser opinions.)

I believe that this aspect of papal infallability (when he chooses to speak as such), i.e. Rome's decision to reject reliance on the Bible alone, has naturally in due course led to, at the least, a complex and obtuse bureaucracy that shares with other man-made bureaucracy's inherent contradictions, hypocracies, mixed messages, power struggles, and "political" intrigue and problems.....
The pediphelia cases are among these.

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

You seem to misunderstand me but that is okay, while we will never agree and both swear we are the right ones we can agree to disagree.

I don't swear to be right and I always knowledge that I could be wrong, hwever this is a comfort a believer cannot have.

However, You seem to or implied that I think I will be gone in a twinkle of an eye,

No I didn't that must be a Freudian slip of your mind.

But I will say what I need to say and I do belive what I say is right

So whilst you believe it you won't sewar by it ??
Again, to entertain the the thought of being wrong is a luxury few xtians can afford themselves.

reply to post by Avenginggecko


I dont see that he his making a case for Separation of Church in state in that parable. However there is another parabile that may fit the separation of church and state.... When Jesus said something ot the effect of My kingdom in not of Earth... There is where you can point to the "separation of church and state".

The one you mentioned is what I have said it means. Caesers money belngs to Caesers your souls belong to him.

reply to post by moocowman


Like I have said before I am far from a model Chirstian and have only recently have joined Jesus Christ Church. There are Many things In the bible that I do not understand, and sometimes I feel as if things in the bible have been reworded when King James and even the early church put it together. I am hunger for the word of God and have read "other" books that did not make it in todays bible. I no more follow the clergy then I do Congress. I march to the tune of Jesus band, while all the way mis-stepping trying to get it right.


As I have stated on here before if two dudes want to sword fight in there home thats there buisness, they want to get married go for it, I will be answer for my sins as they will be answer for theres.

AndI did mention that in fact I could be wrong, But at least if I am right I know where I will end up.

Then again we all good be wrong and come back as a fish.=)

reply to post by Parallex


I just wish you people would realize that becoming a splitting opposite image of Christians is basically hypocrisy and makes you no better than them.

You dislike that many of them dislike homosexuals, so you dislike them back (mirror image).

It is like somehow you think you can copy the exact same mannerisms and logical fallacies that they were guilty of, and somehow this makes you better than them?

I disagree I think your opinion is JUST as BAD as theirs.

It's one sided and tunnel vision.

Just keep thinking you are "right" and they are "wrong". Technically, you are one of them from my point of view.

Two sides of the same coin of hypocrisy and bigotry.

[edit on 11-1-2010 by muzzleflash]

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

Like I have said before I am far from a model Chirstian and have only recently have joined Jesus Christ Church.

So how is it possible to be a model christian if there's no real evidence that your role model even existed ?

If you are happy to believe the words of your would be role model, then why are any other scriptures that do not use the words of your role model necessary to you (or any one else for that matter) if you can never know their true meaning as the authors are long dead ?

There are Many things In the bible that I do not understand, and sometimes I feel as if things in the bible have been reworded when King James and even the early church put it together.

The bibles were written and re written by men and cannot be held as a reliable account of anything as said writers and editors have are all dead.

I am hunger for the word of God and have read "other" books that did not make it in todays bible.

If your hungry for the word of a god, do yourself a favour and speak to the god, if he's real he will speak to you, no need to waste your time with books authors unknown.

If your god doesn't choose to speak to you loud and clear, this is not because you're doing something wrong it's because your god is imaginary.

I no more follow the clergy then I do Congress.

If you accept the bibles as true then you are most definitely following the clergy, ie the clergy of the Nicene catholics that compiled the original bibles.

I march to the tune of Jesus band, while all the way mis-stepping trying to get it right.

Your not marching with a band my friend your dancing to a tune.

I don't understand all the fuss, because it does state quite cleanly in the bible which is after all the book that governs the Catholic and Christian religion, and so called perfect word of god, that man should not lay with man as he dose with women. And that if he does he should be killed.

So all the pope is doing really is going along with the bible, at its word. Whether he believes in gay relationships or not personally is neither here nor there, it its what it is.

There are to many people who pick and choose what they want to use from the bible in religious circles, when the book says its self that it is the word of god and not to be changed in anyway.

Im not religious nor am i gay, i do have some gay friends, some of them are religious, and i have said it as it is, and pointed out in the bible where it says it, but they insist that that's not what it means, which shows again how people pick and choose what they want and what they do not.
just my opinion

reply to post by moocowman


I really feel sorry for you. I do, and of course you will say you feel sorry for me, but atleast I know when I die I will truly be happy. And of course you will say the same, But only time will tell.

To put this really simply: there's no need to turn from God because his self-proclaimed spokespersons are ignorant

The God Business has been hijacked by 'religious leaders'

Whether or not they intended to turn people from God, or if they were inadvertently instrumental in this occurring is neither here nor there, although I suspect the former

This quoting from the Bible and other religious documents has attained almost a 'sports' following and has taken on a 'one upmanship' life of its own

It's not hard to be a decent person. Just by adhering to the Lord's Prayer and the Ten Commandments, it's possible to live a very decent life and set a good example

Judge not lest ye be judged ?

Forgive as you seek to be forgiven ?


Easy. Simple. No need for self styled religious leaders or those who compete with each other over 'mastery of the Bible '

Next: homosexuals. If God is the Creator who created all things great and small, then he's responsible for the existence of homosexuals and heterosexuals alike. Not complicated

Therefore, those who have issues with homosexuals need to take up those issues one on one with God. Until then, they should cease judgement

reply to post by neo5842


We'd be wise to remember that God did not write the Bible. He didn't even endorse it or contribute to the Foreword

MAN .. fallible MAN .. wrote the Bible

and those men filled the Bible with their OWN prejudices and beliefs


Do people realise this, do you think ?



I mean, there's absolutely NO difference between the Bible

and an UN-authorized 'biography' of Elvis Presley !



MAN .. fallible MAN .. wrote the Bible

God had nothing to do with it. And I don't blame him/her/it

reply to post by Dock9


I dont see anyone in here passing Judgement except people like you, I dont have to like everyone, I dont have to accept anyones lifestyle, But According to God I do have to love everyone... I have seen some of you on here attack christians with a passions (jews) as well. All the while trying belittle them, But in the very next breathe you folks will call us dirty little names and attack god with dumb ass remarks like that one....

I have said it once Ill say it again, I do thing being GAY is a CHOICE, I think that lifestyle is VILE, BUT if they want to get Married I dont care because God will judge them not me, And I love all people regardless I may not like you but I still love you.

Some of you here will be the first one to never admit that, but always attack because we dont agree with you, Christian and non christians alike... You may not admitt but deep down you know it to be true.

I don't trust any man who is in their 80's and wears a dress and a fish hat...

In a way he is right and in a way he isn't.

Homosexual people don't join the evolution, but the evolution joined them.

This planet is too weird for me, someone get me off!

Originally posted by Dock9
reply to post by neo5842

 

We'd be wise to remember that God did not write the Bible. He didn't even endorse it or contribute to the Foreword

MAN .. fallible MAN .. wrote the Bible

and those men filled the Bible with their OWN prejudices and beliefs


Do people realise this, do you think ?



I mean, there's absolutely NO difference between the Bible

and an UN-authorized 'biography' of Elvis Presley !



MAN .. fallible MAN .. wrote the Bible

God had nothing to do with it. And I don't blame him/her/it

I think I have said this many different ways in many different threads, and so far the target audience has yet to grasp this simple concept.

Maybe it's a mental deficiency?

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by Dock9

 

I dont see anyone in here passing Judgement except people like you, I dont have to like everyone, I dont have to accept anyones lifestyle, But According to God I do have to love everyone... I have seen some of you on here attack christians with a passions (jews) as well. All the while trying belittle them, But in the very next breathe you folks will call us dirty little names and attack god with dumb ass remarks like that one....

I have said it once Ill say it again, I do thing being GAY is a CHOICE, I think that lifestyle is VILE, BUT if they want to get Married I dont care because God will judge them not me, And I love all people regardless I may not like you but I still love you.

Some of you here will be the first one to never admit that, but always attack because we dont agree with you, Christian and non christians alike... You may not admitt but deep down you know it to be true.

Hey, hey, HEY ....


What is your problem ?

Why have you CHOSEN to take personally a post that was NOT directed to you personally ?

You need to step back, right now


Personal attacks against a poster who may have hit one of YOUR sensitive nerves is NOT the way to advertise your devotion to ANY god

Step back

Ask yourself WHY you selected ME as target of your rant


Then deal with whatever arises as result of your introspection. Thank you



Were you ANGRY because someone stated FACT, i.e., that MAN wrote the Bible, not God ?


Didn't you KNOW that, already ?

Didn't they TELL you that ?

Well, now you know. And you have to deal with it


And part of being an adult, let alone a reflection of God through your actions, is that it's the sign of poor character to shoot the messenger just because you don't like the message

Originally posted by whaaa
but perhaps il Papa should be addressing issues within his own flock before he comments on the outside world.

Yes! He can come out and say he believe in ET life yet opposes gay marriage and be suffering in denial.

[edit on 11-1-2010 by DarkCyrus]

reply to post by cjcord


Good to know I'm in sane company

Yes, you'd think people would work this out for themselves

It's not beyond the average person's grasp

Probably safe to assume that in most homes (thus influencing most lifelong) the Bible and God are synonymous, indivisible. Kids (and people generally) are encouraged to believe God and the Bible are indivisible

Not to forget that the Bible is very commonly described as 'the word of God'

But it isn't

Guess most people just don't analyse it. And are NOT encouraged to do so


When in fact, the Bible is probably no more a reflection of God and no more an accurate historical document than the Collected Works of Shakespeare

The fact the Bible is used in the courtroom of course persuades those who tend NOT to analyse or think for themselves, that the Bible is 'sacred' and 'the truth and nothing but the truth'

So, naturally, those who imagine they're getting 'closer to God' by learning the Bible by rote (after which they go into forums and argue with others who enjoy Sports Bible Interpretation) LIKE to believe the Bible is the literal 'word of God'

and they LIKE being able to justify their ignorance and prejudice by claimiing, 'the Bible says this, the Bible says that '

If only those who cite the Bible as excuse now could actually MEET, face to face, those who actually WROTE the Bible .. their world would likely fall apart. Because those they'd meet would shock and disappoint them to tears and to a probable collapse of faith