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Some hookah bars ignoring NC smoking ban

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posted on Jan, 14 2010 @ 05:51 AM
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Originally posted by TiredofControlFreaks
Lillydale

I am not arguing with you. I am trying to educate you as your point of view is based on some very very shoddy misunderstandings.


Actually, they are based on first hand experience, can you say the same? How long has this been a law where you live?


Is tobacco smoke the same as wood smoke?


No.


YES - there are some minor differences because the burning of nicotene renders it into Vitamin B3 (very important to stress relief and proper functioning of the nervous system), Solansol (used in the treatment of respiratory disfunction like asthma)


You honestly think that Nicotine is a minor difference? THAT is shoddy understanding at its best. Basically you are saying there is very little difference between sugar cookies and sugar cookies with heroin in them. Neither one is poisonous and the butter and sugar will probably kill you either way, but the Heroin will help make you keep sucking down them cookies until it happens WAY SOONER. I never get an itch to go stick my face in a campfire. Sorry but not even SLIGHTLY the same.

I get it now. You know NOTHING about addiction. Got it.


However wood smoke contains the same contaminants like particulate, polyaromatic hydrocarbons, dioxins, metals, formaldehyde etc etc.


List the toxins in wood smoke and list the toxins in the average story bought tobacco. I am sure there is a reason you did not bother to do that break down.


The burning of organic material all produces the same contaminants. This would include bbq's, wood burning stoves, oil burning stoves, fuel burning cars, candles, burning aromatic oils etc etc Any burning of organic material produces the same list of 4000 chemicals that burning tobacco produces.


Since when is my charcoal genetically engineered to be more addictive? How about my candles, my oils, etc. Again, addiction is and has been the most important factor in all of this and so far, nothing you are saying is doing anything to change that.


Here is a link:

burningissues.org...

Of what value is it to ban smoking in a fancy restaurant and then burn candles on the table. Of what value is it to "protect the children" from tobacco smoke and then gather them around the fireplace or bbq for some family time.


Rate of absorption, exposure. You are leaving out important factors. Again, easy experiment. Put you baby in a room with a chain smoker and close the door and windows. Now do it with a scented candle. Let me know when your baby starts to cough. Take them to the doctor immediately for a blood draw. See if there is a difference. You just might be surprised. Then again, that baby will be able to hang out for a while with the candle.

Campfires? What restaurant do you go to that has campfires? I had no idea that there were public places that forced you to stand close to a campfire. Give me names. I will shut them all down.

In my personal life - no one has ever forced me to inhale campfire smoke and I have never subjected anyone to that myself. I would gladly give you a large cash prize if you can walk out my front door and tell me who is having a fire. It is in the 30s so we are using heat. I rarely even see a campfire let alone have to inhale it. Nice try but not convincing so far.


I can tell you this: a candle weighs ounces, a log weighs pounds and cigarette weighs about 1/2 a gram. Guess what happens when you burn a pound of wood compared to 1/2 a gram of dried leaves?

Tired of Control Freaks


You really think tobacco is just dried leaves? Why is it that I am not addicted to Oak tree leaves or smoking green tea? You are leaving out a vitally important issue here.

I have a cat that I took from a friend who lived in a motel room. She chain smoked with the cat in there. The windows did not open an the door was only rarely open as it was not really the safest thing for her. I have the cat now and I only smoke out in my garage. That same cat is constantly trying to get me to let her out in the garage. I have two cats and the other one could care less about my garage. The little one seems to have no special interest out there other than just sitting in the room. Got any cats clawing their way to your campfires lately or do you think tobacco might be a little different?




posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by Lillydale
 


ok,you're wrong.
i'm not quoting your wall of text but i'll pull a couple points from memory.

burning is burning,ask a fireman about smoke inhalation. (non-tobacco)

the reason he didn't list all the toxins is the list would be very extensive and incomplete because there are a huge number of other chemicals in the environment as well which react when burned.

baby this, baby that.
the world isn't meant for children,it is meant for adults.
childhood is to train you for life,thats why childrens playtime is ALWAYS imitations of what they think being an adult is all about.
understand this,every time you overreact to make children %100 safe you make them WEAKER.

the car you drove to the restaurant did more damage to your precious snowflake than secondhand smoke did.

[edit on 19-1-2010 by the_grand_pooh-bah]



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by Finn1916


So here in North Carolina, we recenly had a smoking ban in all indoor establishments. The only way around it is to pay an extra fee and build a special smoking room. Fine, the law was passed and it has to be followed. The question is, if the entire point of said establishment is for smoking, isn't it already a special room for smoking? To me, despite the law change, isn't this basically a non issue as a hookah bar is meant soley for smoking? Your thoughts?

www.wral.com
(visit the link for the full news article)


It never ceases to amaze me, the laws imposed on certain establishments.

My solution to their problem...build a set of double doors...like a hotel lobby...when entering the first set of doors, that is the "business establishment". Then entering through the second set of doors, that is the "special smoking room". BUT, that is still a financial burden on the business owner....the owner of a business that serves to no one but smokers.



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by the_grand_pooh-bah
reply to post by Lillydale
 


ok,you're wrong.
i'm not quoting your wall of text but i'll pull a couple points from memory.

burning is burning,ask a fireman about smoke inhalation. (non-tobacco)


Well no. I am not wrong. Ask anyone who went to high school about burning toxic chemicals as opposed to cherry wood. I am not addicted to my grill. Do you suppose there might be something in the smoke?

You seem to think that smoke is smoke. That could not be farther from the truth. Can you introduce me to these firemen? I am worried about them now.


the reason he didn't list all the toxins is the list would be very extensive and incomplete because there are a huge number of other chemicals in the environment as well which react when burned.


There sure are. They shut down the model airplane glue burning clubs here a while back too. Damn Nazis!


baby this, baby that.
the world isn't meant for children,it is meant for adults.


LOL. I am not talking about the world. I am talking about the extra poison in cigarette smoke. A baby is the just the canary in the coal mine but I see you do not get it. Please, prance as off topic as you wish.


childhood is to train you for life,thats why childrens playtime is ALWAYS imitations of what they think being an adult is all about.
understand this,every time you overreact to make children %100 safe you make them WEAKER.


Blah blah blah. Get off your soap box now. None of that applies to anything I said. I was talking about poisonous smoke, not plastic guns with unpaintable orange tips.


the car you drove to the restaurant did more damage to your precious snowflake than secondhand smoke did.

[edit on 19-1-2010 by the_grand_pooh-bah]


I would like to say "I know but the world is not a perfect place. Your argument is off base and off topic. You have deflected as much as anyone could ever even try to. You are either trying to purposely poison the well or you do not get it."

Instead, I will play the hippy you seem to think I am and say - Prove it.

This will require you having knowledge of my mode of transportation. I said I was a smoker, not a trucker. You seemed to have gotten all of that very confused.

edit to add: I just spent a little time smoking something that was not cigarette tobacco. There is not only a very different effect on me but also on the person hanging out with me while I did so. You claim all smoke is the same though. That should relieve my crack addicted brother.

[edit on 1/19/10 by Lillydale]



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 05:10 PM
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using babies as canaries in coal mines?
brilliant!that is pretty hardcore though.

as far as combustion goes the reason there are so many different results is that the combustion may not have been complete.

complete combustion leaves mostly water vapor and co2.it's when there isn't enough oxygen to the reaction there can be incomplete combustion.
it's why they have a catalytic converter on cars.

as far as addiction goes that word is WAY overused in society.
true addiction comes with severe physical withdrawal symptoms.
if you are addicted to nicotine you are simply a p**** that needs to learn discipline.
see south park episode 914 bloody mary for a cartoon explanation
or see penn and teller's b.s. about A.A. or twelve steps can't remember which for a live action one.

society needs to cowboy up a bit and stop crying to the government to protect them at every turn then complain when it gets huge and evil.
do you want rights or not?
stop chipping away at the rights of others.
if their smoke is bothering you ask them politely to stop or go elsewhere taking your money with you.
If enough do this the business will ask people to go elsewhere to smoke so they can get your money.

no new laws are needed.
what we need are laws against retards wanting laws for every tiny inconvenience in life.

i quit cigarettes cold turkey 3 months ago after 22 yrs.i quit oxycontin cold turkey 5 yrs ago after 8 yrs.
the vapors are what carries the drug not the combustion.
these compounds are destroyed by heat.
it's why vaporizers are great

[edit on 19-1-2010 by the_grand_pooh-bah]



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 05:36 PM
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Ok, when you go to a Hookah bar what is the purpose? Anyone?

That's right. The only reason anyone would go into a Hookah bar is to smoke. There is no other purpose behind a hookah bar than to smoke. If you don't like smoke, don't go into a hookah bar. If you don't like smoke don't work at a hookah bar.

A hookah is a mechanism used for smoking tobacco. Sure there is second hand smoke, and it will be inhaled by people smoking first hand at the hookah bar. If you think second hand smoke is dangerous then don't go inside a hookah bar. Don't take your kids to a place that only serves the purpose of smoking.

I mean seriously... Isn't common sense involved here?

I mean creating sanctions so the employees aren't exposed to 2nd hand smoke is ludicrous in my opinion. They know when they applied for the job that there would be clouds of smoke in the air. Where is the accountability? It shouldn't be with the establishment because everyone knows what a hookah bar's purpose is.

Why would a non smoker go to a hookah bar?!? They wouldn't because they don't smoke.

Why are we creating laws where common sense is just as effective?!


[edit on 19-1-2010 by DaMod]



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 05:43 PM
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Originally posted by the_grand_pooh-bah
using babies as canaries in coal mines?
brilliant!that is pretty hardcore though.


I am not sure if that means you even get the analogy or not since a baby's lunges are excellent indicators as to what the human body wants and does not want in it's system.


as far as combustion goes the reason there are so many different results is that the combustion may not have been complete.

complete combustion leaves mostly water vapor and co2.it's when there isn't enough oxygen to the reaction there can be incomplete combustion.
it's why they have a catalytic converter on cars.


Yeah um thanks Mr. Wizard but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about now, does it? The last time I checked, the entire point of smoking anything from anything was for the result of the incomplete combustion so you are just saying things. Thanks anyway.


as far as addiction goes that word is WAY overused in society.
true addiction comes with severe physical withdrawal symptoms.
if you are addicted to nicotine you are simply a p**** that needs to learn discipline.


It is nice to know that you really know nothing about the effects of nicotine on the human brain. It can and does lead to severe withdrawal symptoms so if that is your only standard, you are already wrong.

We can talk about smoking crack if you like? It really does not matter what the drug is. The point is, there is something in the smoke that is different from a wood fire.


see south park episode 914 bloody mary for a cartoon explanation
or see penn and teller's b.s. about A.A. or twelve steps can't remember which for a live action one.


Hmmmm, a proud right wing cartoon or a libertarian think tank member....? Which one should I go to about addiction? Hmmm. Oh, I know. A DOCTOR. If these are the people that educate you about addiction and anything else, then I would appreciate it if you aimed your ignorance at someone else.

You are also talking about an episode comparing alcoholism to cancer which is an entirely different debate.

The point was and still is NOT ALL SMOKE IS THE SAME. It is really that simple. You seem to have a lot you want to say. Get a blog.


society needs to cowboy up a bit and stop crying to the government to protect them at every turn then complain when it gets huge and evil.
do you want rights or not?


I want you to make sense within the context of this thread and anything I might have said to you. That might be fun.


stop chipping away at the rights of others.


You are really going to have to show me where I ever did that once. Please provide quotes or any other form of evidence you have. I am mostly curious as to how you think that I even have the power to do such a thing, let alone the desire to attempt to do so. I think you are off in fantasy rant land as nothing you are saying applies to any of the information supplied by any of my posts. Perhaps you should read things first, then respond to them.


if their smoke is bothering you ask them politely to stop or go elsewhere taking your money with you.


I do not have to. It is illegal to smoke in restaurants and they are thriving in this recession. Guess how the money voted? The people wanted it. It happened. Everyone benefited. I am still waiting for you to even make a valid argument against it. Your own standards belie the truth of the situation. What is in your smoke?


If enough do this the business will ask people to go elsewhere to smoke so they can get your money.

no new laws are needed.


You would think but then when you have a minority of people stepping on the rights of others...well, this is America. The majority get to decide things. They decided they did not want smoke in their restaurants. Do you not like how America does things?

It is quite apparent you are speaking from your behind since before the ban was enacted, several establishments had already been on-board. THEY THRIVED. Either way, you are wrong. You are just saying what you would like reality to be. I am telling you, from a place where it has happened already, what it actually is.

I also pointed out that establishments bucking the ban lost business. You have not read my posts as you would know that I am offering you real world evidence. The best argument you have offered so far is to ignore it and tell me what you think should and would happen. Again, I am telling you what actually DID HAPPEN.

You can opine all you like, it does not change reality. Since I live in it and you apparently do not. I will go with what I know and see over what you wish and think.


what we need are laws against retards wanting laws for every tiny inconvenience in life.


Well, I never asked for the law and I agree we need fewer, not more. I am not sure who you are referring to because anyone reading my posts would know I am most certainly not one of the "retards" you so eloquently speak of.


i quit cigarettes cold turkey 3 months ago after 22 yrs.


Congratulations. There are people that have quit Heroin cold turkey. That does not make it addictive does it?


i quit oxycontin cold turkey 5 yrs ago after 8 yrs.


People such as myself have absolutely no addictive tendency toward said drug. Does that make it not an addictive drug?


the vapors are what carries the drug not the combustion.
these compounds are destroyed by heat.
it's why vaporizers are great

[edit on 19-1-2010 by the_grand_pooh-bah]


LOL. While you are jumping back into Mr. Wizard mode, let me remind you - We are talking about hookah bars. These are not places where people go to completely incinerate their products until the only thing left is water vapor. They are going for the vapors that carry the drug, and the flavor. I have no idea why you have gone to that twice as it applies NOWHERE.

Ironic that you then endorse a method for enjoying marijuana. You keep telling us that all smoke is smoke but um...there is a reason it is illegal for me to smoke that.



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 06:06 PM
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a giant wall of text doesn't make you correct.

if you let your doctor make all your medical choices life will suck for you quickly.
remember swine flu?

mock me all you like.
i was only referring you to a cartoon because that seems more your level.

and i take being called mr.wizard as a complement.
that show kicked a$$.
too bad you didn't learn more from it.

i do read your posts they are just lame,i only respond on plausible opposing arguments.
i won't argue every insignificant point you try to make.

where in my post did i mention marijuana?
maybe you should go work on your reading skills with the teacher and get back to us later.

www.youtube.com...

[edit on 19-1-2010 by the_grand_pooh-bah]



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 07:47 PM
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Reply to Lillydale:

You have a very very closed mind. I have provided links to you that you refuse to acknowledge.

The "toxic chemicals" in cigarette smoke are the same byproducts of combustion that are generated whenever organic products are burned in the air.

As for your little experiment with babies and smokers - its has already been done. The baby boomers were born when almost 70 % of the male population and 35 % of the female population smoked. I am 53 years old. I smoked in the maternity ward and I smoked while I breast fed

Baby boomers were the generation of children born to smokers, raised in second hand smoke and grew up to be smokers themselves.

And yet...When I was born, medical science predicted that my life span would be approximately 65. In truth, the average lifetime of the baby boomer generation turned out to be 72 for mean and 80 for woman (in Canada). We have turned out to be the longest lived and healthiest generation in the history of our country!

In Canada, it has been illegal for tobacco company to put anything in our tobacco for more than 20 years! In the United States, additives consist of sugars, rum, molasses etc.

have you never been in a restaurant or bar with a wood-burning stove or a fire-place. Ever been in a restaurant where food is grilled. Ever been in a hospitality industry where candles were burning on every table? Then you were exposed to the same 4000 toxic chemicals in cigarette smoke!!!

As for the meaning of addiction - you don't know the story of that particular word. Addiction was a word that had a medically developed definition. In order for a substance to be considered addictive, it had to meet very specific criteria:

1. The substance had to have the ability to intoxicate you. This intoxication prevented you from being able to make informed decisions on your own behalf. Such as the decision NOT to partake of the particular substance. Nicotene DOES NOT INTOXICATE.

2. It had to have the ability to induce LIFE-THREATENING symptoms when abruptly withdrawn. Quitting smoking produces some symptoms like .ache and inability to concentrate. Quitting smoking is NOT life-threatening.

3. The substance had to induce cravings to the point that the user was willing to totally alter his life in order to obtain more. Witness the crimes that addicts will commit in order to get astronomical sums. Witness homeless addicts who will find the money to pay for $500 / day drug habits but be unable to choose to use the money to pay rent and buy food. Note that cigarette smokers are not among the group.

4. The substance has properties such that ever increasing amounts are required to produce the same effect. Note that smokers tend to stay at approximately the same dosages all their live. If you start out being a light smoker, you tend to still be a light smoker years later. If you are heavy chain smoker, you tend to be a heavy chain smoker years later. No smoker has ever OD'd on cigarettes.

Under this specific definition, there were only 5 or 6 substances that were considered addictive.

In 1986, C. Everett Koop the Surgeon General changed the definition of addiction to include a psychological component (habit).

profiles.nlm.nih.gov...

This was done at the demand of the anti-smoking campaigners. It was a political move because it allowed anti-smokers to explain to the public that smokers were addicts and tobacco companies were drug pushers. In so doing, any personal responsibility for a person's decision to smoke was erased and assigned to the tobacco companies.

The truth is that over 50 million smokers in North America quit smoking in the 1970s. They did it without the need for patches, gums, vaccines or anything else. They did it cold turkey simply by making the decision that they wanted to quit.

I understand addiction very very well Lillydale - it is you that do not even understand what the word means! I don't blame you. Most people don't! How can they when the government chooses to change the definition of a word so that people can't even discuss the idea.

Unfortunately, in order to include nicotene in the definition of the word addiction, the Surgeon General had to broaden the definition to the point where any activity or substance that causes the human body to generate endorphans (causing a sensation of pleasure) is now considered 'addictive'.

Words that accountability and personal responsibility no longer have any meaning whatsoever. So you shop until you are impossibly in debt up to your ears - not your fault - you are suffering an "addiction"

Are you a husband like Tiger Woods who chooses to indulge in multiple affairs with strange woman - why you are not responsible or accountable for you behavior - you are a sex addict and you need therapy!

Do you gamble the family home away - again - how can you be personally accountable for your actions - you are an addict!

If you are a smoker - and you wish to stop the nagging and gain social acceptability - why its easy - just explain that you are an addict, the tobacco company is responsible - gosh you would love to quit but its such a difficult addiction.

No one ever thinks of being an adult - smiling pleasantly at the nagger and saying "I smoke because I like it and I intend to continue - please mind your own business".

I quit smoking for 3 years and had absolutely no difficulty in doing so. The discomfort lasts about 3 days.

Tired of Control Freaks



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 11:02 PM
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Originally posted by the_grand_pooh-bah
a giant wall of text doesn't make you correct.


No, fortunately the content does. I know this because you are not about to even try to refute any of it.


if you let your doctor make all your medical choices life will suck for you quickly.
remember swine flu?


Why do you insist on making things up? You keep trying to make some kind of point by pretending I have said things that I have not. That is the move of someone with no real argument to make.


mock me all you like.
i was only referring you to a cartoon because that seems more your level.


All I like? Then I get to call you an idiot for using a show about alcoholism to smoking? I am having a hard time thinking of the last time I got second hand drunk........hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....I am not sure you are in a position to determine my "level" when you cannot get your addictions straight.


and i take being called mr.wizard as a complement.
that show kicked a$$.
too bad you didn't learn more from it.


The simple fact that I was being sarcastic and you did not get that makes it ten time funnier. Thank you. What did I not learn from it? Please educate me. So far this post refutes nothing I said but attempts to attack me. Where is your real argument for your case because it seems to have faded into the noise.


i do read your posts they are just lame,i only respond on plausible opposing arguments.
i won't argue every insignificant point you try to make.


Then my entire last post must be a plausible opposing argument since you have responded to it. Maybe you do not read your posts. You responded and with some length and yet...still no actual argument.

There are few things that I enjoy more than long posts explaining why they will not bother to respond to me.



where in my post did i mention marijuana?
maybe you should go work on your reading skills with the teacher and get back to us later.

www.youtube.com...

[edit on 19-1-2010 by the_grand_pooh-bah]


You mentioned a vaporizer and I took a guess. There are few other things people use them for. I cannot see your youtube video from here so whatever it proves, I am sure it is some lame attempt to show that you use a vaporizer for vanilla tobacco
. OK, whatever.



Perhaps you should get yourself a nice English tutor. I would not be mocking anyone's reading skills when you say what you just did. I never claimed you mentioned marijuanna. I said you endorsed a method for enjoying it. That is exactly what they are for. Go back and read it again, feel bad about mocking my reading skills after you realize what I actually said, hang your . in shame...and be a man and at least apologize for that in whatever nonsensical, empty, factless reply you make.

The MOST enjoyable thing on ATS is when people call you out on your reading comprehension and then proceed to prove they had a hard time with what was actually written.


Two great laughs. Thank you!



posted on Jan, 19 2010 @ 11:22 PM
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my reply to Lillydale

The simple fact that I was being sarcastic and you did not get that makes it ten time funnier. Thank you.

*you're more than welcome

Please educate me.
*i don't know,it'll take time and i really hate typing,maybe once i get a webcam.

The MOST enjoyable thing on ATS is when people call you out on your reading comprehension and then proceed to prove they had a hard time with what was actually written.


Two great laughs. Thank you!

*I agree good laughs all around in this thread.

now i will apologize if my english grammer is off,I'm living in mexico trying to learn spanish and it's screwing up my english a bit.
but my comprehension is just fine thank you.
and my points still stand.
can't get ATS to work right for me tonight.

[edit on 19-1-2010 by the_grand_pooh-bah]



posted on Jan, 20 2010 @ 01:29 AM
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reply to post by moocowman
 

So surely the nanny states are overdue in intervening by protecting us by banning drinking alcohol in public places.
They already have done in parts of a lot of cities! The police seem to be turning a blind eye to it if you're sat at a table on a terrace outside a pub tho. There's a pub I go to that lost permission to have tables out in front. Guess why? You'll love this...
Because patrons were talking to passers by!



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