Communism vs Democracy.

I dont' know if this was mentioned, but Communism can be Democracy. They aren't mutually exclusive. Communism is an economic system, democracy.....is something else.

democracy and capitalism are incompatible.
there is no communism without democracy.

hrm... something must have gone wrong somewhere?

maybe the amerikans' history books?
this is what happens when you take tax money out of education
and use it to fund phony wars.

Originally posted by echelon
maybe the amerikans' history books?
this is what happens when you take tax money out of education
and use it to fund phony wars.

Exactly.

It seems that trivial things such as education and health care for all don't even rate political consideration these days. Which is understandable considering the Pure Testosterone injections TPTB seem to be addicted to.


'They have bigger dicks than us...B$mb their arses !!!"

Props to George Carlin for his 'Bigger Dick foreign policy'.

Can some of the advocates of communism and "true socialism" please point to one nation which government is either of these and is benevolent?

Right now Spain is still in a transition to being a true socialist country, and even now they are having a lot more problems with unemployment than they did with "el partido popular" in power, which was a socialist/democracy. They still had a lot of problems in other areas back when the "partido popular" was in power.

If you think getting a job in the states is hard, go to Spain and see how many people are unemployed. In January this year its at 11.3% in Spain, the highest in EU. In the States its about 5.6%.

In the 80s in Spain you couldn't get a loan to study in college after high school, so unless your family is well off you wouldn't be able to educate yourself past that level, or study anything you want. There were other programs that i remember which would help "a few" of the less priviledged, but it will be in only certain professions. So if you were smart enough to study to be a doctor, even thou that was your dream, but you were poor, you wouldn't be able to follow your dream and would have to accept another profession, even one you probably disliked if you were lucky enough..

I think it all depends on the country. I also think that neither anarchism, true socialism/communism or a true democracy would work or be good for any "country."

european socialism is a joke.
it's very much equivalent to what liberals promote in the u.s.

in socialism, you can turn out to lean towards communism, capitalism or even fascism.
so there's no such things as 'true socialism'.
communists only support it in hopes that it is only a transitional gov't.

and there simply aren't any examples of communism.
the capitalists have done their part in sabotaging the system at every attempt.

[Edited on 5-26-2004 by echelon]

Communism is not inharently anything, niether is any other form of social group government. the arguement is the same about technology. you could design the most incredible form of government, and have nothing to do with it, its not negative or positive, much like nuclear energy, bombs or energy for homes. its all in what we as a group do with it.

if anything would be possible, it would be a unitarian form. every nation haveing a voice in a unified front. wont happen but its good to dream about it. the fact of the matter is, some of us are positive for the human race, some of us are negative for the human race. i personally break all people down in to 4 general catagories, i use the terms "good" and "evil" very loosely considering both are variatable terms used by humans.

evil/evil people. these are the throw backs for every step forward they cause us several back. they look out for thier own self interest above all else they account for roughly 15% of the people i have met in my life.

evil/good people. these are evil people who act good to have thier own way they are the most dangerous because of thier ability to seem good while carrying on thier own desires and whims. they account for roughly 25% of the people i have encountered.

good/evil people. these are people who do bad things for good reasons, most times they are the onese beating the crap out of someone to save thier freind, they may lie cheat or steal, but there are several lines they would not cross even in thier own self intrest. they try to do the best they can for those that care about , and dont care about others on the whole, they account for about 50% of the people i have encountered.

good/good people. these are the big ones people. men and women who dedicate their lives to helping the rest of us. they sacrafice and consider the human race on a whole instead of the sum of its parts. they care equally about all things and only want to improve the lives of those around them or those inhabiting this planet. but many lack common sense and good for them, that the above mentioned group looks out for them. they account for about 10% of the people i have encountered.

as such no government made by the people for the people could never work. the human race as a whole is not all that nice of a species. all i can do is hope that the 10% backed by the 50% can keep us from doing to many stupid things that harm us.

one of my favorite quotes is from "Stranger in a Strange Land" Jewbal Henshaw, "democracy is a corrupt, ineffecient, and horrible system, but the saddest fact about it is that it is ten times better than anything else out there" it is not an exact quote but it will do.

Communism has never been applied properly, and probably never will be. Marxism is a great theory, been pretty lousy in practise. So many dreams . ...

Originally posted by earthtone
Communism has never been applied properly, and probably never will be. Marxism is a great theory, been pretty lousy in practise. So many dreams . ...

I don't think I would want it to work even if it was possible. Where would personal motivation come from? It defies the very tenants that make us human and could never work for humans.

All in all I think it would create a very lackluster life for all if it ever did work.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
I don't think I would want it to work even if it was possible. Where would personal motivation come from? It defies the very tenants that make us human and could never work for humans.
All in all I think it would create a very lackluster life for all if it ever did work.

and realistically, what is the incentive under capitalism?
i'd have to say for the common man it's, 'work so you can pay your rent, your mortgage,
your interest on credit card and school loans, your over-priced food, healthcare, transportation,
and entertainment, and so on or starve'
what incentive is there if you know you'll have to work there 8 hrs no matter what?
in fact, you wouldn't even have the 8 hour work day if it weren't for us.

communism is based on being able to provide more than enough for everyone.
the u.s. can manage this, but it's not there yet.

it is impossible to jump directly from capitalism to the highest stage of human society.
a socialist transitional gov't is required between the two periods.
during this time, we will learn to seperate ourselves from the old society.

and for the 'human nature' argument...
like all things in nature, human consciousness and society are always in a state of change.
'conditions determine consciousness'
human beings rose to the top of the food chain not by competing against each other
and crushing one another in the struggle to 'get ahead', but through cooperation.
we may appear as 'individuals' now, but the fact is, we are even more dependant on
literally thousands and even millions of other humans around the world.

it is only the capitalist class which thrives off the individual competition between one company and another.

[edit on 6-17-2004 by echelon]

what keeps me at a job i hate?

top ten reasons to keep an ugly job
1) first comes the money, then the power, then the women
2) if i didnt work, what else would i do?
3)3 words "big screen TV"
4)beating the other dude off the line at a red light, those upgrades to my car are not free
5)GAS, my car is my freedom, take my apartment, and my dog, you mess with the care and i will end you.
6) if i didnt work, i could live off my freinds....... that or go to prison for the 3 hots and a cot.
7) my taxes for the rest of my life will buy ONE cruise missle...... by god im a death dealing machine
8) im a single male, with no car accidents on my record, and my insurance is still high as hell..... again with my car
9)whens the last time you saw an unemployed guy in a nice car, eating taco bell, smoking a ciggarette blasting mp3's and speeding?
10) cause if i dont work, the republicans will call me mean names, and charity groups will hound me, trying to "help" me. nothing is wrong with me that alot of drugs and a nice car with unlimited gas wont fix.

Well, I remember someone saying that Democracy is where the 51% dominate the other 49%, and time has proven that Communism doesnt work either, so we're left with picking the lesser of two evil. I'll leave you to decide... I'm a little stuck here

It can also be argued that you only have democracy on election day, then it's a dictatorship. Sure feels like it here.

CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC... WHAT THE U.S. HAD TO BEGIN WITH IS THE BEST!

Originally posted by KrazyJethro

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
I am not sure if this has been discussed, but I would like to know what the members believe is the most viable form of goverment, if not these two, then possibly another alternative, per sa, Anarcho-Capatalism, Liberalism, Anarchism, Socialism.

Deep

Well, communism might be a nice idea, but it could and never will happen, so that's out already.

As for democracy, it's nice as long as people don't finger # it or micromanage it too much.

I think a democracy is the best, although our democratic republic could use a swift kick towards real democracy.

Nothing specific, just some thoughts.

Well democracy is prety good but it's annoying!! Those stupid laws... I like socialism...

Well Canada is a short flight but you'll find that there are MORE laws.

Hellava lot more taxes too.

[Edited on 26-5-2004 by intrepid]

Every system will have it's flaws but the main flaw in Capitalism is that the bottom has to support the top... instead of supporting each other equally so that one side isn't dead poor. I am not anti-rich or against corporations.. I believe they have the right to gain lots of money and become as rich as they like. But I also believe in a system where everyone can enjoy the highest standard of living possible.

In my grandfathers era, he tells me of the days when a man could find a good job somewhere and work for that company for decades and then retire with benefits and a pension... today unfortuntely these types of jobs aren't as available. (Especially manufacturing)

I used to think of myself as a right-winger conservative untill I took a trip into NYC and noticed how many unemployed/homeless were out and about all over in all directions. It doesen't have to be this way.. I do not believe anyone would be as lazy to the point where they would want to live on the street courner, I cannot think of anyone who would want to live this way.

As an American Socialist I look at Europe and see how they are advancing the economic systems so that everyone can atleast have some decent standard of living. I would have no problem paying out of my own $$$ to contribute to a system where atleast I know everyone will find a job and recieve the bare necessities of life and not have to go to a dumpster and pick scraps. Noticed how I italicized "bare necessities" Nothing more should be given except for what is needed for survival.

I would go into a discussion about a universal healthcare in depth but I am a bit short on time. I believe atleast there should be some form of this in the U.S.A, it hurts me to see people I know struggling to pay for basic doctors bills while struggling to pay for a mortgage at the same time. I believe that atleast basic healthcare should be included with a universal care system.

I care about the living standards of my fellow man.


Out for now

[Edited on 26-5-2004 by RedOctober90]

Originally posted by RedOctober90
Every system will have it's flaws but the main flaw in Capitalism is that the bottom has to support the top... instead of supporting each other equally so that one side isn't dead poor. I am not anti-rich or against corporations.. I believe they have the right to gain lots of money and become as rich as they like. But I also believe in a system where everyone can enjoy the highest standard of living possible.

In my grandfathers era, he tells me of the days when a man could find a good job somewhere and work for that company for decades and then retire with benefits and a pension... today unfortuntely these types of jobs aren't as available. (Especially manufacturing)

I used to think of myself as a right-winger conservative untill I took a trip into NYC and noticed how many unemployed/homeless were out and about all over in all directions. It doesen't have to be this way.. I do not believe anyone would be as lazy to the point where they would want to live on the street courner, I cannot think of anyone who would want to live this way.

As an American Socialist I look at Europe and see how they are advancing the economic systems so that everyone can atleast have some decent standard of living. I would have no problem paying out of my own $$$ to contribute to a system where atleast I know everyone will find a job and recieve the bare necessities of life and not have to go to a dumpster and pick scraps. Noticed how I italicized "bare necessities" Nothing more should be given except for what is needed for survival.

I would go into a discussion about a universal healthcare in depth but I am a bit short on time. I believe atleast there should be some form of this in the U.S.A, it hurts me to see people I know struggling to pay for basic doctors bills while struggling to pay for a mortgage at the same time. I believe that atleast basic healthcare should be included with a universal care system.

I care about the living standards of my fellow man.


Out for now

[Edited on 26-5-2004 by RedOctober90]

Well, i dont care.. so you just make your own private fund for those guys and do all you want k? just don't take money from others to do this. and btw. you are a dirty red commie.

[Edited on 26-5-2004 by TheRebel22]

I would have no problem paying out of my own $$$ to contribute to a system where atleast I know everyone will find a job and recieve the bare necessities of life and not have to go to a dumpster and pick scraps. Noticed how I italicized "bare necessities" Nothing more should be given except for what is needed for survival.

I would go into a discussion about a universal healthcare in depth but I am a bit short on time. I believe atleast there should be some form of this in the U.S.A, it hurts me to see people I know struggling to pay for basic doctors bills while struggling to pay for a mortgage at the same time. I believe that atleast basic healthcare should be included with a universal care system.

I care about the living standards of my fellow man.


Out for now

Slicznya post kolega! I could not have put it better myself, we are such a rich nation yet we cannot feed or take care of our own people.

We are so rich, why can we not at least provide basic services for our people?

Where the hell did job security go? I had to see my parents worry about losing their jobs almost everyday. The pain and suffering on my mom's daily life were especially tough for me to see. We live a comfortable life, but it's the constant threat of layoffs and buyouts that caused problems.

I would personally rather have much less material-wise knowing me and possibly a family of mine could live our lives daily without worrying about losing everything.

As for people who abused the system, they would be dealt with... a more brutal way...

Capitalism is by far one of the worst forms of government. The rich live in luxury off the backs of the poor. All economic systems to date have been class systems in which some prosper, while others go hungry, homeless, or worse: working 8-5 everyday for the rest of their lives, paying bills, and hoping for some ray of hope of an escape.

Communism doesn't exsist, and most likely will never exsist, because people are naturally greedy. Sure, people will agree that its good for people not to starve to death, while others make billions of dollars, but if they had the chance, they would profit off the poor just the same. There has never been a communist country. If you think there has been, read a dictionary.

A perfect government would be a demo-communistic form, where the people had free voice in the government, and the economy had a somewhat tight median (preventing some from making $10k a year, and others from making $600k+ a year).

The rich live in luxury off the backs of the poor.

Sometimes I feel as I am riding off the back of others, as an American buying foreign good made in sweat shops.

It seems that for every American baby born into this world, 20 other people are needed to support it.

Am I making sense to anybody?