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Would You Accept Illegal Power If It Was Offered To You?

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posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by dgtempe
Everyone wants more and more and more. Give me the good old days (in other countries) when you kept your job for life if you wished. I still try to live by those rules.

Working in the United States has always been a joke, a game, lets see who i can screw to get ahead, etc.= Absolutely no job security. Lots of ars kissing, may work for awhile, then Karma seems to come back and bite ya in the butt.

Of course there are people for any situation who would gladly screw their neighbor just for kicks. Hell, i've had it done to me at a job i had, its happened to many people i know, ..

All the social skills one learns in school.....
Just a freaking joke.


I have noticed the phenomenon in the workplace you speak of, as well! It's called office politics, and it's downright ridiculous! In my humble opinion you job should be your job, not a social gathering or a place to earn brownie points.

One should be graded on their merit or how well they do their job, regardless of their pacts or friendships in the workplace. Work in this country, and I am pretty sure others, is one big game as you put it. It is like high school all over again, with gossip, the popular kids, and such. . .

Instead of it being a place to earn a living, it has turned into something else. I live by the adage, "Never mix business with pleasure." That is how I conduct myself in the workplace and sometimes it doesn't sit well with my co-workers, because to them, I appear condescending. So be it, but I don't like to make waves and refuse to get involved in office politics. I just want to do whatever it is they are paying me for and go about my business. Work shouldn't be a clique or popularity contest, but a place to earn a living!




posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 09:04 AM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity
One of the most common places to find ill-gotten power and corruption is in your neighborhood church. Those who manage the treasury, sit on the church counsel, and otherwise administer the church bylaws are among the most corrupt individuals I have ever encountered, inasmuch as they abuse their power (and church finances) in the name of God.


I've seen that as a youth and young adult the amount of duplicitous back-stabbing that goes on in church is amazing and really irritates me.

Petty, spiteful, and vindictive are things I saw in church.

More often than not, the Pastor's wife is running it as an intelligence gathering operation.


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
I say this not as an atheist nor as an enemy of organized religion. In fact, I'm a member of the Lutheran Church — which is how I come by my piss-poor opinion of church bureaucracy and church government. Our church, in particular, is corrupt from the senior pastor on down.


I hate bureaucracy, and church has its own propaganda, I choose to not go.

I've been through quite a few religions, and the only one I found I could stand being in the room with the people, was Christian non-denominational.

I do not currently go but do own a Bible, and I occasionally open it.


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
The pastor himself is a spineless gutbag, an enabler, a two-faced, flip-flopping ex-stage magician who not only cuts & pastes his weekly sermons verbatim from the Internet, but who has the unmitigated gall to ask for a substantial raise every year. In return for his salary, he actually missed about 30% of the Sunday services in 2009, but he managed to make time for TWO cruise vacations to the Bahamas. His wife, a pretentious, prissing clotheshorse, took off for an additional vacation on her own to Argentina. I'm talking about vacations, not mission work.


Woah.

Reminds me of Jim and Tammy Faye Baker.

Or the recent Richard Roberts scandal.


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
The church counsel is comprised of "good old boys and gals" who eagerly scratch one another's backs, and who will readily overturn church elections, reappointing each other every year, defying the congregation vote — and always behind closed doors.


I'm surprised any members have stayed at that church.


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
The church treasurer is a temperamental hypocrite who refuses to answer questions about the treasury, except to say, "We should all have faith that the money is in there"... Say what?!


In other words, stonewall, until the people get tired of asking.


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
Where does the treasury go? The church secretary makes $17,000 per year for typing and printing out the church newsletter (a 4-page, folded letter-size document) once a month — that comes to $1416 per newsletter. The church janitor makes $10,000 per annum — about $200 every time he walks through the door. One of the counsel-member's wives makes $7,000 per year for babysitting a handful of children for one hour during the Sunday worship service once a week (Let's see, that's $7000 for 52 hours work yearly); plus, this woman has no qualifications for handling other people's children. The pastor's wife is constantly throwing her own personal social events and billing it to the church treasury.


Sure sounds to me like the entire structure should be investigated by the I.R.S. for tax-fraud, tax-evasion, and money laundering.

Not to mention a whole list of other things, most church people call "sin".

You know none of this surprises me, right?


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
In short, this church's administration is guilty of nothing less than thievery, and they are coming to realize that they cannot afford necessary church expenses.

Now, what do my wife and I do for the church?

My wife is a professional senior technical writer for the software industry, and she lends her writing and organizational skills to creating multimedia Sunday school and confirmation classes that rank with the best business presentations you've ever seen in your life.

I'm a professional marketing artist, and I use my skills to advertise for the church, create mural-size backdrops for their various social gatherings, create illustrations and PowerPoint presentations for their confirmation and other classes, and generally make the church LOOK GOOD.

We've probably put in a couple of thousand hours per year for the church over the last two years.

We receive NO compensation for our services. Zero. Zilch. But that's because we do not EXPECT compensation — what we do is an absurd little something we call serving the Lord, and we gladly do it for free, paying for all materials out of our own pockets.


You mean you do exactly what all church members are supposed to do, voluntarily?

Shocking, I say shocking, that you and your wife have ethics, morals, and beliefs.

In the midst of the den of thieves you two need to be careful as Hell.


Pun intended.



Originally posted by Doc Velocity
But this year we decided to throw them a little curve ball by researching and compiling a 30-page whitepaper analysis of their organization and expenditures, full of analytic charts and graphs as well as recommendations for saving the church from bankruptcy.

In short, we created a whistleblower exposé, and we formally presented it to their first counsel meeting of the year. This morning.

It was like lighting a match to a hornets' nest.


I wish I was there to see all of this because I'd have been laughing so hard.


Originally posted by Doc Velocity
The pastor was red-faced and repeatedly sputtering "This is UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!" The treasury secretary threw his copy of the whitepaper across the room and stormed out of the meeting! Other counsel members were shame-faced, shaking their heads, unable to look us in the eye.

The upshot is that they're now trying to run us out of the church. Oh, yes, we received many phone calls afterward, about half from those who want us burned in effigy, and half from those who were cheering our audacity. Some of the congregation wants to split away now and form our own church.

Which is fine with me.

But first, we're sending our whitepaper to the Bishop, to let him decide what to do with the crooks in our midst. Who knows? The Bishop may be as crooked as the rest, but we're going to let him know that it's all out in the open.

So he'd better get off of his holy ass.

— Doc Velocity
[edit on 1/10/2010 by Doc Velocity]


I'm laughing so hard here, Doc Velocity, because I'm loving every minute.

Good for you and your wife.

Unconstitutional, huh?

No, I believe that's covered under Freedom of Speech, and you can tell your pastor I said that.

I believe what he meant to say was How Dare You, while simultaneously trying not to burst into flames of Hell-fire and brimstone.


Sorry, I just had a coughing fit because of the laughter.

You have restored my faith in the church, a bit, with your post.

I will of course be impressed if all of the changes that need to happen, happen.

And, splitting off and making a new church might only take the half of the church with you who knew better, and leave other people there to be lead by wolves in sheep's clothing.

Good luck with your endeavors in religion, church, and stirring up the hornet's nest.

I do not enjoy drama, but I do enjoy seeing cockroaches scurrying, when people switch on the lights on corruption within politics, and even though you're speaking of church, office politics comes into play there just as well.

[edit on 11-1-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
I would take it, and then start using it against them.

That's exactly what many others are already doing and I 100% encourage people in power to weasel their nose into whatever they can just to screw over the real crooks at their own game of chess.


I can respect your thoughts on this, bsbray11, but using that kind of power, to me, would be tantamount to using terror to stop terror.

In other words, using evil to fight evil, and eventually, someone would do it right back and the person who took that power, would have it done to them.

Yes, I understand where you are coming from, and I can see how it might work.

The problem is in having seen what this woman was capable of prior to this event, I would have felt extremely dirty as Hell doing her bidding.

Do not get me wrong, I'm no knight in shining armor, I've been around the block a few thousand times, and many a time I've gotten bruises, dents, and dings from scrapes with co-workers, even took down a manager who thought our company (different job) was her evil little playground, but this situation was stacked like a house of crooked cards.

Eventually, it would have toppled on my head, so I chose to be the card that was pulled, by voluntarily walking away from the situation, by retaining neutrality.

I'm a conflict resolution/conflict de-escalation trained person, but some conflict's, while being in the middle of them, are not always what they appear to be.

In other words, there were far too many facts that I was not privy to, which means I was in uncharted waters, and without a paddle.

You know the saying about being up a certain creek without a paddle?

I was not only going against the flow, I ended up jumping out of the creek.

At that point I was as well working two jobs, the hospital, and one other, plus being an adult leader in the Boy Scouts, and I'm still currently a leader in Scouting.

I just did not trust this manager after this incident either.

Up until that moment, I had trusted her implicitly, and thought she was pretty nice.

Boy, was I wrong, she's evil as Hell, and I wanted nothing to do with her.

[edit on 11-1-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 09:38 AM
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Originally posted by Jakes51
I would have questioned the voracity of the claims made by the manager about the nurse sleeping on the job. Then, I would have asked why you picked individually to conduct the investigation over others in the security department. Then, I would have asked if the manager has any personally dealings with the subject of the nurse, and if so, what where they? If in fact, your manager had personal dealings with the nurse, I would have refused the job assignment, because their is a conflict of interest in the investigation. Plus, why wasn't any written record made for such a request?


Jake51, the only problem with questioning her voracity of claims, was I had nothing to do it with, not knowing more details.

I did ask for verification and was denied it.

She picked me because I've handled many things, discreetly, when it came to the hospital, I already knew that, most of those though were office politics, situations of discretion with handling patients in difficult situations, and problem solving as well as utilizing conflict de-escalation and conflict resolution skills in conjunction with my strong morals, ethics, and beliefs.


Originally posted by Jakes51
In other words, you were right in practically refusing the assignment, because the evidence was pretty shoddy to begin with. They were essentially asking you to spy on a particular employee for nefarious reasons, and as you put it, someone had an axe to grind with the nurse, because of her tenure.


I did do the assignment though I both accomplished what was asked of me, without the follow-through of the goals of the mission, in other words, walking the middle path I went through the fire without getting burned.

Yes, she essentially asked me to become a spy, for her and Adminstration.

I believe over all it was all about the money, more than an axe-grind.

She wanted me to be her axe-man, and if it were my business or Administration, I might pick up that axe-handle, but not for others I won't.


Originally posted by Jakes51
So, in order to fire her to save a buck, they were willing to doctor-up a tale of incompetence on the nurse's part to do so. You did the right thing, and I would have done the same. I refuse to be a pawn for anyone, because I have to look at myself in the mirror everyday. Not to mention, by you being involved in the investigation, you would have left yourself vulnerable if things went astray. In other words, it would have been your word against your manager, and the manager would say anything with their clout to save themselves, and thus, sacrifice you in the process.


Yes, that is quite humorous, looking at what you just said there.

"Doctoring up" a situation, in a hospital.

Exactly my original point, my neck was on the line, my manager's word against mine.

With zero documentation, she could have taken what I reported to the Union, to curry favor with them, and asking for them to shred this nurse, and turned the nurses Union on my butt.

I suspected she might do that.


Originally posted by Jakes51
Now, in terms of accepting what is being offered with the question being posed in the thread, I would refuse. If it means I sacrifice, wealth, success, and social standing then so be it. I like to think of myself as being above board and a person of integrity. So, I would take the straight route rather than the crooked one.

[edit on 10-1-2010 by Jakes51]


Thanks for your post, Jake51.

I would sacrifice power, money, and greed, over intregrity, any day of the week.

Power is nothing, if you did not gain it correctly, money can be lost and or taken away through many veins, and greed is nothing more than power in a concentrated form.

Do not mistake that I do not want power, but I will be choosing how I get it, do not mistake that I do not want money, because I need it to eat, do not mistake that I eventually seek wealth beyond my current means, because I have the vision for it and see myself being extremely wealthy, powerful, and as well owning many acres of land around the world, but I will choose exactly how I do that and how I get that.

Most likely through self-employment, working for no one else, and doing what I do best.

Which is survive.

[edit on 11-1-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


Short answer? I think you made the right call. Ultimately, you have to answer to yourself and honour is a priceless commodity.

Look at it this way...ever try to atone to yourself? Personally, I'm tougher on me than I am on anyone else.



JohnnyCanuck, you said it in your third sentence, honor is priceless.

I am tougher on myself as well because of the power I currently have.

I am not speaking of political power through work, nor political power through being in an office, nor even political power due to the Boy Scouts, but the power I hold because of the knowledge, experience, and personal sacrifices I've gained, lost, and muddled through to get to where I am today.

I've strived to be the best person I can, and it has not always worked, and each time I get knocked down, or intentionally take a dive for ethics over money, I get right back up and dust myself off and move on.

On my family crest is the Latin phrase, "Nosce Te Ipsum", "Know Thyself".

I do know myself and I like, love, and appreciate what I see in the mirror, every day.

I knew you would appreciate this thread after our recent discussion about Union's.

[edit on 11-1-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 01:11 PM
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reply to post by Doc Velocity
 


Here's an interesting update to my own situation with our church. As you will recall, my wife and I researched and compiled a very business-like analytical whitepaper with recommendations for saving our church from bankruptcy, and we submitted it to our church council yesterday morning for serious consideration and action.

Let me be clear, we made no personal attacks and mentioned no other members of the church body in this whitepaper. This was just a professionally-produced business whitepaper, the likes of which you might see distributed at any corporate business meeting.

In short, we were offering our HELP, unsolicited and with no animosity intended.

WELL...

Apparently, certain members of the church council immediately assumed that ours was a personal attack on the corruption and cronyism that transpires behind their closed doors.

This morning, we received an anonymous email from a "Representative" of our church. To wit:



On Sunday you took it upon yourself and TRIED to condemn the pastor at our church. You are self righteous hypocrites and God will get you for what you have done. Every night when you think about what you have done to this family you better PRAY for forgiveness. When you hurt a pastor, you rot in hell for eternity. Everyone knows that you are self loathing attention getter's and this is the only reason you made a "booklet" [whitepaper]. No one believes that trash- you wasted your time! Have fun at the events that are about to unravel within the church. When people see you they see your sickening sanctimonious smiles, you ought to recognize that everyone knows what your up to. You both are definitely the devil of this church- and will be known as just that. Thank you for proving to everyone who you really are. The congregation supports our pastor- If you aren't happy then LEAVE!

Karma is a bitch....
Peace be with you...you both need it.


Now... If this isn't an indication of hatred and corruption at our church, I don't know what is. If I was a fearful person — which I am NOT — I might even construe this email as a threat. My wife is quite perturbed, but, again, I am not.

I think that this calls for intervention from a higher level. To that end, I'm submitting both the whitepaper and this cowardly email directly to the Bishop of our synod, as proof that the "devil is in the house"... Let them suck on it.

— Doc Velocity



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity
reply to post by Doc Velocity
 




On Sunday you took it upon yourself and TRIED to condemn the pastor at our church. You are self righteous hypocrites and God will get you for what you have done. Every night when you think about what you have done to this family you better PRAY for forgiveness. When you hurt a pastor, you rot in hell for eternity. Everyone knows that you are self loathing attention getter's and this is the only reason you made a "booklet" [whitepaper]. No one believes that trash- you wasted your time! Have fun at the events that are about to unravel within the church. When people see you they see your sickening sanctimonious smiles, you ought to recognize that everyone knows what your up to. You both are definitely the devil of this church- and will be known as just that. Thank you for proving to everyone who you really are. The congregation supports our pastor- If you aren't happy then LEAVE!

Karma is a bitch....
Peace be with you...you both need it.


Now... If this isn't an indication of hatred and corruption at our church, I don't know what is. If I was a fearful person — which I am NOT — I might even construe this email as a threat. My wife is quite perturbed, but, again, I am not.

I think that this calls for intervention from a higher level. To that end, I'm submitting both the whitepaper and this cowardly email directly to the Bishop of our synod, as proof that the "devil is in the house"... Let them suck on it.

— Doc Velocity


I have never laughed so hard at the intent of someone's e-mail, in my life.

You have to save that and print it out as evidence, of course.

It is a threat and as evidence, if something were to happen, you have corroborating information about a future event, let us just call it the pretext for a Holy War.



I would be interested to see that e-mail in my e-mail inbox.

I guarantee it would first go to the A.C.L.U., second a team of lawyers, and then third carbon copy several people I am connected to, and then watch these people squirm.

I sure hope you've been Baptized, because they are going to roast you in Hell-fire.

Vindictive people seriously irritate me, and this shows they are extremely petty.

They think they're going to get away with it, but then again, most criminals do.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 04:26 PM
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I really don't know what I would do,Leo it's a difficult decision people make these choices everyday and sometimes with no other reason than: "Just trying to get ahead."which is as asinine a justification as anything I can think of.


PS:Interesting thread S&F for you!


[edit on 043131p://2926 by mike dangerously]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by highlyoriginal
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


It all depends.

I come from strong morals as well, I enforce my own beliefs upon myself very much so.

However, why not take this 'unethical power' and use it against the system? Is there really an acceptable amount of civilian casualties when it comes to secret operations? I don't means death necessarily, but maybe job termination, maybe having to fire people who don't deserve it to keep the 'system' working correctly.


Well, taking this kind of power, will only lead to being a person like Dick Cheney, eventually.

As the saying goes, "The Road To Hell Was Paved With Good Intentions".

That's just it, highlyoriginal, the system was only broken because of a lack of insight into proper running of the hospital, not the staffing, because the bureaucracy kept screwing things up, a lot.

I saw immense amounts of waste going on daily, in all of the departments.


Originally posted by highlyoriginal
Well let's say I do follow through with firing these people, or helping fire these people who do hold some secrets and are due for a raise. Now I'm given more power. What do I do with it? Well on the outside I do what I'm expected to do, lightly as possible, but within the system I try and corrupt it and bring it down (we're talking about an already corrupt system that needs to be brought down), or I could try and take the system back to a place that is more fair - a system that works for everyones (but that really is not too plausible).


How exactly is corrupting an already corrupt system going to work?

If the system is already broken, breaking it further is never going to fix it.

Fair is one thing, but if those in power want something not fair, like this woman's termination, how could fair even be approached, at all?


Originally posted by highlyoriginal
So to be honest, yeah I think I may take the power, but it depends on the consequences. I would never accept a job for the death of another I can tell you that.


More than likely, the manager recruited someone else to do exactly what was asked of me, but at least I know I did not proverbially cut her throat myself.

Sorry, I am no axe-man for an Administration, I will do my own axe work, if I own a business, and not ask others to do the dirty work, because I have zero problem firing an employee if it were my company.

It would be documented up the wazoo and a paper-trail towards their eventual termination.

Not what I saw as completely deniable situation to begin with.

I understand deniability, trust me, but I'm not going to be on the dangling end of it.

When it comes to my butt being on the line, I always cover it.

I had a saying I created at the hospital, and it goes all the way around.

"CYA, CMA, COA : Cover Your Ass, Cover My Ass, and Cover Our Asses".

I believe in documentation, whereas twenty some years ago, I hated paperwork.

I know I hate bureaucracy, but I sure as Hell know when to use it, to save my butt.

This is one of the reasons ATS Administration has such little difficulty with me.

I follow the T & C to the letter, as best as I interpret it, and do my best to make sure I re-read them every single time something comes into question, in my mind.

I've seen people fired before, I've come close many times, I have been fired several times, just as on ATS I've made mistakes, but it is not our mistakes that we must remember as leaders, in any community, online, or otherwise, but what we learn from them and how we can adapt, improvise, modify, and overcome them.

I did not make it to fifteen years at a different job than the one I outlined here, without knowing how to follow policy, procedure, and protocol, they are after all, guidelines, and learning the difference between the black and white is where we as humans need to learn in order to best optimize our effectiveness on society.

I was barely at the hospital job almost two years, and was making headway with learning those policies, procedures, and protocols, because they were completely different than any set of them I had been up against, through, and utilizing up until that point when this manager asked me to do these dirty deeds.

[edit on 11-1-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
The problem is in having seen what this woman was capable of prior to this event, I would have felt extremely dirty as Hell doing her bidding.

Do not get me wrong, I'm no knight in shining armor, I've been around the block a few thousand times, and many a time I've gotten bruises, dents, and dings from scrapes with co-workers, even took down a manager who thought our company (different job) was her evil little playground, but this situation was stacked like a house of crooked cards.

Eventually, it would have toppled on my head, so I chose to be the card that was pulled, by voluntarily walking away from the situation, by retaining neutrality.


Then maybe that was the "best" way to handle it, there's no way I can tell.

I just don't like corruption in general. I'm here with the crowd to see it out on a mass scale, or be imprisoned trying... There's too many of us to imprison us all though I think.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 04:49 PM
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reply to post by Doc Velocity
 
Sounds,like you and your wife rattled some cages.but good,Doc Velocity!



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 05:03 PM
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Hi SKL,

I am afraid, I too would take the power at all immediate cost, because I know with power I could effect some long term gains that would outweigh the immediate sacrifices. The "ends justify the means" in other words! I wish I could say that my moral rectitude is such that I could not allow myself to see things in such a way, and I admire greatly those people that never compromise, but alas, that is not me.

Honestly, I could justify my position all day, but deep down, I would still admire those people that are able to never compromise their morals, and deep down I would still regret some decisions I made along the way.

I feel like I have always acted in a manner that was the most appropriate at the time, and that my actions have always been with the best intentions, but with more power and responsibility comes more opportunity for compromise, and more decisions that have no clear answer!

"Your mother and your girlfriend of 2 months are hanging over the cliff and you can only save one?" "Your 500 men are surrounded on 3 sides by an overwhelming force. You can save them by going through a village with only minor skirmishes, but there will be a few casualties in the village. Who do you save?" It is easy to justify with logic the decisions you make, "Mom had a good life, but the young girlfriend still hasn't had her children or lived her life. You love your Mom dearly and you hardly know the girlfriend." "The few villagers lives are acceptable in contrast to the 500 family men in my command, yet the men signed up for the risk, the villagers are just trying to survive." Etc., etc. What are the "Right" or "Moral" decisions? Who knows?

Maybe that nurse was putting patients lives at risk with her behavior, and she was almost untouchable due to the seniority and the Union status. Maybe she had played the system for decades, and you only knew a snapshot of the situation? Or, maybe she was a good nurse, and all your suspicions are correct, even so, maybe sacrificing her would have brought on 3 new younger, cheaper nurses and provided better care at the hospital, and supported 3 young families at home? Who knows?



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by Namaste
In your situation I would concur. What you did was the most Just thing to do. It would have been useless to relieve her of her duties to further your career.

However say you could have somehow benefitted the community at large?


Thank you.

I agree, it would have been pointless, furthering my career over someone else's is not something I think of as a good thing to do, ever.

I'm still waiting to hear how it might have benefitted the community.

If perhaps she was useless as a nurse, and someone had died under her care?

Maybe.

If my manager had handed me any documentation, and she did not, that stated something like that had happened, prior to her asking me to do that I might have done things differently, but she did not.

See, the presentation, was just as important as being asked, almost more so.

I figured out rather quickly that the manager was lying through her teeth.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 06:24 PM
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At the end of the day if it causes me to loose sleep, I can't look myself in the mirror, or it isn't how I would want to be treated, I won't do it.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by LadySkadi
 

Great thread idea!

I don't think this is a definition of Illegal power. It may be immoral, unethical, shameless and dirty, but not Illegal... (unless actual laws were broken.)


You are correct, "illegal", no, but immoral, unethical, shameless, and dirty, yes.

But, while those things are not written as laws easily defined, to myself, I see them as equal to illegal power, because they should be against the law.

How does anyone think those politician's get away with the things they do?

Because, legally speaking, no "laws" were broken, or if they were, the politician's usually know how to bypass them, using corrupt, illegal, unethical, shameless, and dirty methods, sometimes through cut-outs, intermediaries, and sometimes just by doing it and not giving a damn.


Originally posted by LadySkadi
These are really good questions. As with all moral/ethical dilemma's though, they can only really be evaluated on a spectrum. There isn't a right or wrong/black or white answer. They are highly individual, highly subjective and dependent on a particular set of circumstances. Should any of those circumstances change, so to would the decision. We all live by our own set of morals/values/ethics. I think in a "perfect world" we would all choose to not sacrifice them for any reason, especially not for power/greed/profit (the typically maligned reasons) though I would argue sometimes unfairly maligned...


Of course, situation dictates tactics, tactics dictates outcome, etc.

I live my life by a higher set of standards than most, some of them people might call cold and callous, as in myself never giving a handout to the homeless (money), but I believe if I can work up to four jobs, they can at least work one, and others people clearly do not understand at all, like the one I made where I walked away from a job because I chose ethics over the paycheck.

I do contribute my old clothing to the local facilities though.

I have seen far too many homeless take the money I handed them, and walk into the corner market and buy booze or cigarettes, or lottery tickets.

Now, do not get me wrong, I understand people are homeless, often not always because of their own volition, take my present situation, I am currently not making enough money to pay for rent or any other amenities, but my life is better fulfilled because I have many avenues still open to me.

I go to the library and post on ATS, I am less stressed, and as well I do not have to feel slimy because of my decisions at a job I truly did not love.

Yes, I had a badge as a Security Officer, but more often than not I had to work with other people who I had utter contempt for because of their heartless nature when dealing with the homeless who came in as patients, the psyche patients who were screwed up, and the people who had various other issues that the doctors and nurses often did not give a damn about.

Other things people do not understand about me, is I just don't give a damn about power.

If this were a perfect world, I would never have to have gone through some of the things I have in my lifetime, but I learned to learn from them.

See, I'm not heartless, I just do not show or demonstrate sympathy.

I instead have empathy, because I found out a long time ago people will use someone who has compassion and sympathy, whereas an empathetic individual is much more difficult to pull one over on, each and every time.


Originally posted by LadySkadi
To answer the questions, I have to try to imagine myself in different situations. Would I sell someone out for a better lock on my career as you were faced with? Frankly, the answer is maybe. It all comes down to who would I hurt and what do I have to lose. Do I have options and what are they. Do I have a Plan B and a Plan C. Am I willing to lose what I have and if I am, who else does that loss affect. I have worked in the "corporate" world (HR) and it can get as cut-throat as you may imagine. I saw it often. I tried my best to stay out of the way but there were situations where that wasn't enough. There are times were it is screw, get screwed, or leave.


Yeah, I understand that, office politics in the corporate world is ruthless.

I have seen it, I have done it, and I have been on the receiving end of it.

This is not even the most interesting story I have from that hospital.

More to come, one on terrorism, and anti-terrorism barriers, and the Administration picking poorly, and still being left wide open to a potential event.

I am still considering how to present that one because I have to edit the pictures, pick my wording carefully not only due to a potential lawsuit from the hospital if they ever discovered my thread on it, but as well not trying to instruct anyone how to pull off the event I saw as a potential future event, and as well so that Homeland Security and the F.B.I. cannot say a word, and will not ask to speak to me because of the nature of what I see as still sitting as a wide open invitation to terrorism.


Originally posted by LadySkadi
Just as there is a spectrum for decision-making and consequences (good or bad) there is a spectrum for "types" of people. I would argue that the world needs a mix of all types of people. There are those who are able and willing to do the "down and dirty" and there are those in the middle and there are those who serve a "higher calling" it's a balance and in order for progress to be had, for things to keep moving forward, there is a place for people who are willing to do things I'm not, just as I may be willing to do things others are not.[edit on 11-1-2010 by LadySkadi]


Yin and Yang, Divide and Conquer, Good verses Evil, all things considered, I see this world as both complex as Hell, and quite simple.

See, the decision I made on this thread would be difficult for some, while for me it was a quite simple and an unquestionable thought that I reacted the way I did.

I have done down and dirty, and I have done things which were questionable, but each and every time I was doing it because I felt it was the best possible choice for the current situation.

Situation dictates tactics, tactics dictates outcome, outcome dictates the paradigm.

[edit on 11-1-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by dgtempe
I would NEVER accept illegal power if it was handed to me on a silver platter.

No kind at all, be it poliical, at work, snitching, absolutely NOT.

If it was presented to me in a legal, moral, ethical wy, i'd do it, otherwise NOT.

Thats all she wrote.


Well, that's great to hear, dgtempe.


That's why I picked the way I did.

Everything about the entire situation was questionable.

Documentation, documentation, documentation.

"CYA, CMA, COA : Cover Your Ass, Cover My Ass, and Cover Our Asses".

[edit on 11-1-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



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