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Mechanical Engineering in Ancient times

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posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 01:18 PM
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reply to post by AlienCarnage
 


To answer your question; no there is no way of being certain about anything in ancient history. It is all subject to reviewing evidence and interpreting accordingly. This is not only true for history, this is true for all sciences. Science cannot be certain of anything, it can only interpret evidence and offer likely explanations. Hence why science is always inductive and not deductive.

In the case of the SS and the Sanskrit epic texts. It is possible that they mix fiction with non fiction. In fact some descriptions in the epic text certainly sound like hyperbole, if not fiction. This is why it is necessary to discriminate between what is fiction and what is not fiction. In order to do this we must analyse these texts contexually. The point in contention here is the existence of aeroplanes. If looked at contextually, the descriptions of the aeroplanes in these texts is not mythological, but real. They are being used by people, who we have strong to reason to believe are real historical people, as we have corroborating records from other sources.

Secondly, these aeroplanes are mentioned across the whole corpus of texts including in engineering texts. We do not find the description of Star Trek warp drives in standard engineering texts, do we? We have strong reason to believe the machines described in the SS are real, because it is an engineering text and not a mythological text, and because we have corroborating evidence for their actual existence. Thus based on that it is highly likely even the aeroplanes described are real. That is the best explanation.

I think we should look into our prejudices of why we cannot accept the ancients would have aeroplanes and will ignore all the mentions we find of them in ancient literature, when we have clear evidence of 18th century technology thousands of years ago and 20th century development in science and logic. The fact of the matter is we already have clear evidence the ancients are at modern levels. Then why could they not have modern technology?

Even if we did find the remains of an ancient aeroplane, would we even recognise it as an aeroplane? The antikeythra mechanism was not recognised as an analog computer until several decades after it was discovered. Perhaps we already have encountered the remains of an ancient aeroplane and have misinterpreted it? We cannot just rely on physical evidence for that purpose. If we did, our knowledge about ancient history would grow at a snails pace. In the absence of physical evidence, we must rely on other evidence as well.

So far we really have no reason to suspect the SS's machines are not real. Moreover, the described propulsion system in the SS is very similar to modern ion propulsion engines which can use mercury as a fuel.




posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 02:46 PM
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Are we getting a pattern here?

That all requires infrastructure...trade routes, roads, workers, economics.

How does a culture get to that stage of sophistication? Well...they evolve through time like we have. This means huts to groups of huts, to better huts, houses and then towns to cities. These need to be linked by roads so the materials above can be transported. We need factories, education, specialization in the workforce.


Although you raise these points in order to refute my argument that the ancients had aeroplanes and robots, you have actually raised a very valid and logical point(I raised this point myself earlier on in another thread) that works to my favour. That point is that in order for a civilisation to rise to the level of building robots and aeroplanes, it must have already be industralized or semi-industralized to manufacture nuts and bolts, alloys etc. This in turn presupposes a highly organized society, with cities linked by roads and a division of workforce and a complex economic and civil administration.

I completely agree, and the fact that this is visible in ancient times further lends to the point that the ancients must have had a modern level of development.


A sophisticated and technologically advanced urban culture is evident in the Indus Valley Civilization making them the first urban centers in the region. The quality of municipal town planning suggests the knowledge of urban planning and efficient municipal governments which placed a high priority on hygiene, or, alternately, accessibility to the means of religious ritual.

As seen in Harappa, Mohenjo-daro and the recently partially excavated Rakhigarhi, this urban plan included the world's first known urban sanitation systems. Within the city, individual homes or groups of homes obtained water from wells. From a room that appears to have been set aside for bathing, waste water was directed to covered drains, which lined the major streets. Houses opened only to inner courtyards and smaller lanes.

The ancient Indus systems of sewerage and drainage that were developed and used in cities throughout the Indus region were far more advanced than any found in contemporary urban sites in the Middle East and even more efficient than those in many areas of Pakistan and India today. The advanced architecture of the Harappans is shown by their impressive dockyards, granaries, warehouses, brick platforms and protective walls.



The people of the Indus Civilization achieved great accuracy in measuring length, mass, and time. They were among the first to develop a system of uniform weights and measures. Their measurements are said to be extremely precise; however, a comparison of available objects indicates large scale variation across the Indus territories. Their smallest division, which is marked on an ivory scale found in Lothal, was approximately 1.704 mm, the smallest division ever recorded on a scale of the Bronze Age. Harappan engineers followed the decimal division of measurement for all practical purposes, including the measurement of mass as revealed by their hexahedron weights.

These chert weights were in a perfect ratio of 4:2:1 with weights of 0.05, 0.1, 0.2, 0.5, 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, and 500 units, with each unit weighing approximately 28 grams, similar to the English Imperial ounce or Greek uncia, and smaller objects were weighed in similar ratios with the units of 0.871. The weights and measures later used in Kautilya's Arthashastra (4th century BCE) are the same as those used in Lothal.[36]

Unique Harappan inventions include an instrument which was used to measure whole sections of the horizon and the tidal lock. In addition, Harappans evolved some new techniques in metallurgy and produced copper, bronze, lead and tin. The engineering skill of the Harappans was remarkable, especially in building docks after a careful study of tides, waves and currents.


In others words it is evident that a very sophisticated and complex urban civilisation existed in ancient times in 3000BCE which had advanced engineering skills and civil administration. The very precursor to aeroplanes and robots you stipulate.

In order to understand this civilisation further and the divisions of labour etc we need to look at the Arthshastra, which describes the administration for this civilisation and is the most ancient Sanskrit text on economics. The Arthshastra by the way describes the Indus civilisation and not the 400BCE Gupta empire as is believed(See India: Ancient Superpower: Dating the Historical Buddha) and hence why the metrical system used by the Indus is the same time as the one in the Arthashastra. The Arthashastra corresponds to the mature phase of the Indus valley after 1700BCE.

The Arthashastra describes a highly regulated and industralized economy and very complex division of workforce:

CHAPTER XI. EXAMINATION OF GEMS THAT ARE TO BE ENTERED INTO THE TREASURY.

THE Superintendent of the treasury shall, in the presence of qualified persons, admit into the treasury whatever he ought to, gems (ratna) and articles of superior or inferior value.

CHAPTER XII. CONDUCTING MINING OPERATIONS AND MANUFACTURE.

POSSESSED of the knowledge of the science dealing with copper and other minerals (Sulbádhátusástra), experienced in the art of distillation and condensation of mercury (rasapáka) and of testing gems, aided by experts in mineralogy and equipped with mining labourers and necessary instruments, the superintendent of mines shall examine mines which, on account of their containing mineral excrement (kitta), crucibles, charcoal, and ashes, may appear to have been once exploited or which may be newly discovered on plains or mountain-slopes possessing mineral ores, the richness of which can be ascertained by weight, depth of colour, piercing smell, and taste.

CHAPTER XIII. SUPERINTENDENT OF GOLD IN THE GOLDSMITH'S OFFICE.

IN order to manufacture gold and silver jewellry, each being kept apart, the superintendent of gold shall have a goldsmiths office (akshasála) consisting of four rooms and one door.

In the centre of the high road a trained, skilful goldsmith of high birth and of reliable character shall be appointed to hold his shop.

Jámbúnada, that which is the product of the river, Jambu; Sátakumbha, that which is extracted from the mountain of Satakumba; Hátaka, that which is extracted from the mines known as Hátaka; Vainava, that which is the product of the mountain, Vénu; and Sringasúktija, that which is extracted from sringasúkti (?) are the varieties of gold.

(Gold may be obtained) either pure or amalgamated with mercury or silver or alloyed with other impurities as mine gold (ákaródgata).

That which is of the colour of the petals of a lotus, ductile, glossy, incapable of making any continuous sound (anádi), and glittering is the best; that which is reddish yellow (raktapíta) is of middle quality; and that which is red is of low quality.

Impure gold is of whitish colour. It shall be fused with lead of four times the quantity of the impurity. When gold is rendered brittle owing to its contamination with lead, it shall be heated with dry cowdung (sushkapatala). When it splits into pieces owing to hardness, it shall be drenched (after heating) into oil mixed with cowdung (taila-gomaye).

Mine gold which is brittle owing to its contamination with lead shall be heated wound round with cloth (pákapatráni kritvá); and hammered on a wooden anvil. Or it may be drenched in the mixture made of mushroom and vajrakhanda (Antiquorum).


CHAPTER XVI. THE SUPERINTENDENT OF COMMERCE.

THE Superintendent of Commerce shall ascertain demand or absence of demand for, and rise or fall in the price of, various kinds of merchandise which may be the products either of land or of water and which may have been brought in either by land or by water path. He shall also ascertain the time suitable for their distribution, centralisation, purchase, and sale.

CHAPTER XVII. THE SUPERINTENDENT OF FOREST PRODUCE.

THE Superintendent of Forest Produce shall collect timber and other products of forests by employing those who guard productive forests. He shall not only start productive works in forests, but also fix adequate fines and compensations to be levied from those who cause any damage to productive forests except in calamities.

CHAPTER XXIII. SUPERINTENDENT OF WEAVING.

THE Superintendent of Weaving shall employ qualified persons to manufacture threads (sútra), coats (varma), cloths (vastra), and ropes.

CHAPTER XXIV. THE SUPERINTENDENT OF AGRICULTURE.

POSSESSED of the knowledge of the science of agriculture dealing with the plantation of bushes and trees (kri#antragulmavrikshsháyurvedajñah), or assisted by those who are trained in such sciences, the superintendent of agriculture shall in time collect the seeds of all kinds of grains, flowers

CHAPTER XXV. THE SUPERINTENDENT OF LIQUOR.

BY employing such men as are acquainted with the manufacture of liquor and ferments (kinva), the Superintendent of Liquor shall carry on liquor-traffic not only in forts and country parts, but also in camps.

CHAPTER XXVIII. THE SUPERINTENDENT OF SHIPS.

THE Superintendent of Ships shall examine the accounts relating to navigation not only on oceans and mouths of rivers, but also on lakes natural or artificial, and rivers in the vicinity of stháníya and other fortified cities.

projectsouthasia.sdstate.edu...

In conclusion the kind of civilisation that is evident in the Indus valley has all the required stages to develop into a highly technological civilisation with the power to build aeroplanes and robots.

[edit on 11-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 03:29 PM
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reply to post by Indigo_Child
 
Agreed they were a sophisticated and seminal society. Nascent morality and basic laws. They are our forefathers after all. We 'stand on the shoulders of giants.' Such is time.

That being said, there's still no evidence that supports your contention that our ancient predecessors had 'aeroplanes and robots.'



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
I think we can safely rule out the meteorite hypothesis because no evidence of a meteorite impact has been found(no impact creator, no meteorite fragments)

By this logic, we can also rule out any nuclear device, as no evidence of any nuclear detonation there has ever been found.

The site is not radioactive, there are still archaeologists digging there today without any kind of protection, and please link to the study that found these skeletons were "50 times more radioactive than normal."

Please, these skeletons you're talking about were found before any device to measure radioactivity was even invented.

Also, meteors often explode in the atmosphere, leaving nothing but tektites - no crater, no fragments at all. So, sorry, your argument about "no evidence for a meteor" is a straw man because, with it, you manufacture what you believe would constitute such evidence and then present it as if it were factually the case.

There is right now, online, a site about a current dig. You can find it through Google. It has pics of the artifacts found, none of which are melted in any way.


We must look at the available evidence and derive our conclusions from that.

This much is true. I wish you would follow your own advice here.

Harte



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 05:49 AM
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reply to post by Kandinsky
 


Well, there is certainly evidence, otherwise we would not be having this conversation. I think what you are trying to say that there is no physical evidence of aeroplanes, ancient robots and nukes etc. I agree, but I don't think physical evidence is the be all and end all order to establish a conclusion.

My main arguments go in this order

1) The wide corpus of Sanskrit texts mention these machines(aeroplanes etc) to have existed. These texts are considered history and sure enough there is quite a lot of supporting evidence to show that they are actual history. If suppose in the future all physical evidence of our aeroplanes are lost and all that remains are textual records of our aeroplanes, do you expect future generations to deny we had aeroplanes?

2) The SS text is an engineering text and mentions all kinds of machines, including aeroplanes, with especially a lot of details for the aeroplanes, including instructions on take-off. It mentions the antikeythra mechanism as well, which we know is real because we have by a freak accident discovered it and it has overturrned our knowledge about what the ancients were capable of in engineering. So why wouldn't the aeroplanes be real as well? The fact is the propulsion the aeroplane SS describes is actually functional. We are creating similar engines today.

3) The precursors to technology like aeroplanes are already present in ancient times. This includes modern(18th century onwards) levels of physical theories, mechanical engineering, urban development, civil administration

4) We already have many things from ancient times which are at modern levels. The antikeythra mechanism has 18th century level of mechnical engineering and miniturization, the ancient steel has a 18th century level of quality and production; ancient linguistics and logic has a 20th century level of development; ancient urban development has a 19th century level of development; ancient medicine and surgery has a 19th century level of development. I think this unanimously indicates the ancients were already at modern levels of development long before us.



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 05:49 AM
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Repeat post.

[edit on 12-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 07:26 AM
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reply to post by Indigo_Child
 


Lets for an instance they did reach the same level of technology as us then that would mean that they also had the same types of mishaps with their technology, planes crashing into the Ocean, ships sinking in the ocean, etc. The antikeythra mechanism was preserved in the sea, or at least part of it was, so we should also be able to find pieces of their aircraft as well. I am pretty sure something as big as an aircraft of some sort would have something left if something as small as the antikeythra mechanism had something left of it. I am no expert on how long it takes the ocean to overgrow sunken vessels, or even weather oceans would preserve such things, am going by observation alone on this one.

We do have physical evidence of robots, not robots the way we think of them, but like I have said before, something similar to animatronics in amusement parks of today. Most were not exactly like the ones in our amusement parks exactly many were 2 dimensional, not 3 dimensional, using ropes and pulleys with notches to move the “robotic” actors, even changing sceneries, and opening and closing curtains in some cases. Not robots by today’s standards, but technically runny a program using the rope and pulley with notches system. These types of devices were used as entertainment and some for worship.

So, if we have physical evidence of everything but the airplanes, then why can we assume that they existed? Shouldn’t there be something other than these Sanskrit texts that mention these things, which we are taking that they are not non fiction based on some of the things they mention being true.

I hate doing this but this is what is ringing in my mind. Again I go to the fiction stories of today; there is one fictional story that encompasses a whole “religion” which is similar to a real religion in some aspects. If you look at the texts that describe the “Jedi Knights” for example, their religion sounds like that of Tibetan monks, or many others, yet it is a made up religion. And many texts have come out from that fictitious story describing many of the ships, diagrams, schematics even manuals on how to fly them. Along with that there are many devices in that fictitious world that are described in detail that we do have today. So if we go by the rules for this fictitious story that you set forth confirming that the Sanskrit text are to be taken at face value then, we have here in this fictitious story, which has many different stories written by many different authors and many different “tech manuals”. Let us take a look at what we have in this fictitious story.

Proof 1: We have all of the volumes of text that describe the same vehicles and society that can travel to many planets across a galaxy.
Proof 2: We have physical evidence that supports the text in the texts.
Proof 3: We have at least one religion that sounds like the one described in the texts.

To a society that discovers all of this proof, that must mean that we had huge starships, space fighters, repulsor lifts, light sabers, etc.

Obviously we don’t have this technology, but to a future generation that finds all of these texts that only looks at these texts and does not dig deeper, they would assume, as many have about the Sanskrit texts, that they are factual representations of what we have. When digging for the truth we can not assume anything much less that based on texts that they had aircraft of any kind.

If all they found was our books describing our planes and no physical evidence of our planes I wouldn’t want them to assume that we had them without looking deeper. I would not expect them to take any of our texts at face value, without following proper course of logic.

[edit on 1/12/2010 by AlienCarnage]



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 11:37 AM
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reply to post by AlienCarnage
 


Aliencarnage,

I do not mean to undermine your points with the brevity of this post. I just think we can summarize your arguments as basically one argument. That is it is possible that the references in the Sanskrit texts are probably fictional and the descriptions we find of the flight manuals, and the engines they used are also fictional, in the same way we can find descriptions of the flight manuals and engines in Star Trek/Star wars.

Your argument is not invalid at all. I said earlier we have to use our discrimination to ensure that we do not confuse mythology with real history, but likewise, we must not confuse real history with mythology either. I am basically reiterating my point in my last post, but I will expand on it somewhat. Here are the reasons why the references to aeroplanes in the Mahabharata are not fictional in the same way as Star Trek

1) They are describing real historical people such as kings, major religious figures, who are utilising these machines. We do not find references to real histoical people, say George Bush flying in starships do we? If we found a record saying, "George Bush was flying in the sky in his aeroplane, airforce" We are likely to infer it is a real event and not a fictional event, correct? In the same way finding records like, "Then Krishna flew up into the sky on his airship" means it is likely a reference to a real event and not a fictional event.

2) A real engineering text is describing these aeroplanes, down to trivial details on how to avoid collision with birds in mid-flight. The machines it is describing are real, and we even have found some of them. Just because we have not found the aeroplanes does not mean they do not exist, in fact given the credibility of the text, it is likely they are real too. Moreover, the engine it describes is actually a real type of engine. We are building them today. Just as we do not find real engineering texts describing how to build warpdrives and how to avoid collision with asteroids at warp speed, likewise the SS being a real engineering text, can only be describing real things.

I think based on the evidence I am going to have to accept these aeroplanes did in fact exist. In fact I can't think of a reason why they wouldn't exist in a society that is already at modern levels of development thousands of years before the modern age. What is so special about us that only we could have done it?

As for finding an ancient aeroplane. Remember, it is a complete fluke that we found the antikeythra mechanism. The chances of finding such technology is very very remote, especially considering the possibility that such technology was probably not mass-produced and was only owned by the elite. The ocean is absolutely vast, it is possible that the remains of an ancient aeroplane are lying somewhere under the ocean, and if we were to recover it, we would probably only find pieces of it and be unable to identify it as an aeroplane. Remember, we are possibly talking about 5000 to 10,000 years ago. The chances of finding technological artefacts in a largely non-technological ancient world are very very slim.

[edit on 12-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 12:11 PM
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reply to post by Indigo_Child
 


What I used was a simple example, but there are other science fiction epics that have many books based on them as well, technical manuals, stories, in which actual places on earth are discussed and figure heads of countries are talked about, some include names of the figureheads some just use their titles. I am not going to go into all of each of these, but I think you are starting to see my point, as well as do me yours.

Again I will say that if a future civilization finds our true historical texts about our level of technology, computers, trains, airplanes, etc., but does not find physical evidence to go with it, I would not expect them to believe that we truly had the things described in our texts. I would expect them to believe that there was historical information mixed with fictitious information within the texts, until they were able to prove otherwise.



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 12:14 PM
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reply to post by Indigo_Child
 


#1 Imagining a future where all evidence of airplanes is absent apart from texts is a distraction from the point. The airports, manufacturing plants, artwork, images, diaries, news records, design manuals and etc etc would remain even if the millions of aircraft had somehow vanished from existence.

#2 The SS texts are only an 'engineering text' in the eyes of the faithful, ATS zombies and fans of the old 'forbidden archaeology' sites and books.

#3 The 'ancient precursors' you mention aren't ancient. '18th Century' isn't ancient unless you were born then and still alive...It's a distraction and doesn't refer to ancient India.

#4 Cherry-picking the Anykthera Mechanism is a distraction tactic to avoid conceding that the utter lack of evidence indicates the texts to be false. They were propaganda in the sense that one culture sought to elevate its claims above all others.

Of all the vested Hindu interests desperate to 'prove' these claims to be true, Cremo et all have been the most successful. That's pretty poor work, huh?

Your main four arguments are thus tenuous at best. They support a wish to indulge the fantasy. Typically, such arguments are unable to affect reality because they are never strong enough to carry the burden of proof.

Right now I expect you to dismiss my points with a few 'what ifs' and 'possiblys.' I expect you to stick to your belief in planes and robots. The burden of proof is mine and I expect you to provide the evidence



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 12:56 PM
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Again I will say that if a future civilization finds our true historical texts about our level of technology, computers, trains, airplanes, etc., but does not find physical evidence to go with it, I would not expect them to believe that we truly had the things described in our texts. I would expect them to believe that there was historical information mixed with fictitious information within the texts, until they were able to prove otherwise.


I can see your point. Something can only be declared to be certain when we have empirical evidence. I can be certain for example that the antikeythera analog computer existed in ancient times, and this alone has changed our knowledge on the extent of mechanical engineering in the past and shown them to have modern levels of development. Unfortunately, however, relying on just an empiricist approach is not wise and very limiting. As sometimes we do not have the luxury of empirical evidence and must rely on our inferences. If we always relied on empirical evidence to derive our conclusions, our scientific development would progress at a snails pace. Unfortunately, this is indeed the case in all scientific fields. A paradigm is maintained for a very long time, for decades, and all contradictory evidence is ignored until the evidence becomes too overwhelming, resulting in the collapse of the paradigm.

I am a rationalist and I have already been able to derive many conclusions, which I know will be proven to be true by the empiricists eventually, but I am not about to wait on them. I can find sufficient evidence already that indicates our ancients were at modern levels of scientific and technological development, albeit, they had a different approach to science and technology.

By the way thank you for being polite and considerate of my views and arguments, despite our differences. I think others can learn a lesson from you and not automatically assume somebody is stupid if they argue alternative views. It will always be the case that people will have different views on any matter, this does not mean that they are less intelligent or educated. It simply means they have a different view.



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 01:46 PM
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#1 Imagining a future where all evidence of airplanes is absent apart from texts is a distraction from the point. The airports, manufacturing plants, artwork, images, diaries, news records, design manuals and etc etc would remain even if the millions of aircraft had somehow vanished from existence.


I can imagine that future. This does not necessarily mean that it is possible that every trace could be wiped out, but nor does it mean it is impossible. Neither of us could know actually what would happen if a devestating catacylsm took place which destroyed our manufacturing plants, records, books and manuals and how much would survive thousands of years after that, or even hundreds of years after that. We could only speculate. So it is better we leave this point as moot.


#2 The SS texts are only an 'engineering text' in the eyes of the faithful, ATS zombies and fans of the old 'forbidden archaeology' sites and books.


There is no question of faith. The SS is not a religious scripture and is not considered holy, it is barely known to any Hindu in fact. It is a classical engineering text used in Indian architecture.


Samarangana Sutradhara is an encyclopedic work on classical Indian architecture (Vastu Shastra) written by Paramara King Bhoja of Dhar (1000-1055 AD).

In 83 chapters, subjects treated are town planning, house architecture, temple architecture and sculptural arts together with Mudras (the different hand poses and the poses of the body as well as the postures of legs), the canons of painting, and a chapter on the art of mechanical contrivances, the yantras (chapter 31).


It definitely exists. You can even purchase it and read it yourself:

Sastri, T.G. (1924)
Kumar, Pushpendra, Bhoja's Samarangana-Sutradhara : Vastushastra. 2 Vols, New Bharatiya Book Corporation (2004), ISBN 8187418923.
Sharma, Sudarshan Kumar, Samarangana Sutradhara of Bhojadeva : An Ancient Treatise on Architecture, 2 Vols. (2007), ISBN 8171103022.

It's as real as Euclid's treatise on geometry or Aristotle's "Poetics" So you are not going to get very far in denying this text. Even the machines it describes are real. Again, to remind you, the antikeytha mechanism is mentioned in this text. The antikeythra mechanism is real.


#3 The 'ancient precursors' you mention aren't ancient. '18th Century' isn't ancient unless you were born then and still alive...It's a distraction and doesn't refer to ancient India.


The ancient precursors I mentioned are all ancient. The Arthshastra(ancient economics), vaiseshika shastra(ancient physics), asthayadhi(ancient computer science) charaka and sushrataha samhita(ancient medicine) and they are all at modern levels in development. In fact even modern surgery such as plastic surgery is derived from sushratha samhita.
To give you an idea, in ancient times Sushratha was performing complex and very fine surgery using 125 surgical instruments. Show me something equivalent to this before modern times.


#4 Cherry-picking the Anykthera Mechanism is a distraction tactic to avoid conceding that the utter lack of evidence indicates the texts to be false. They were propaganda in the sense that one culture sought to elevate its claims above all others.


What text to be false? the SS? I think I have already shown you it is defintiely very real. I cannot quite understand on what grounds you are making this claim that it is false. Is it because you want it to be false?

[edit on 12-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 01:58 PM
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I will take a hint from one of the great minds of last century .

Dr J. Robert Oppenheimer.
He was a student of Physics and strangely enough a student of ancient Sanskrit texts . The very texts that describe ancient Atomic bombs .

When asked about the first bomb he quoted out of the Bhagavad-Gita
Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds

Then again years later I have read this exchange took place .

A student asked: “Was the bomb exploded at Alamogordo during the Manhattan Project the first one to be detonated?”

Dr. Oppenheimer’s answer was short . Well , yes. In modern times, of course.

For me there is more credence in Dr J. Robert Oppenheimer. Than debunkers any day.



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by Indigo_Child
 
The SS isn't an engineering text. It doesn't describe the Antykthera Mechanism. Your claim betrays your sources and indicates that your reference to the SS text is based on 'forbidden archaeology' websites and wikipedia. Wikipedia can be a valid, credible source, but this example isn't one of them. It offers no cross reference links and cites Von Daniken as a source





he ancient precursors I mentioned are all ancient. The Arthshastra(ancient economics), vaiseshika shastra(ancient physics), asthayadhi(ancient computer science) charaka and sushrataha samhita(ancient medicine) and they are all at modern levels in development. In fact even modern surgery such as plastic surgery is derived from sushratha samhita. To give you an idea, in ancient times Sushratha was performing complex and very fine surgery using 125 surgical instruments. Show me something equivalent to this before modern times.


That's all well and good. You provide me with only one example of each of the claims (you have a tendency to waffle) and I'll read the links provided. I've probably read most of the books and sites you've based all this on, but surprise me




What text to be false? the SS? I think I have already shown you it is defintiely very real. I cannot quite understand on what grounds you are making this claim that it is false. Is it because you want it to be false?


Again distraction. So far you haven't provided anything more substantial than a wiki link and the ISBN of books you don't own and haven't read. You are making the extraordinary claims. That means that I don't run around looking for your evidence. You are meant to provide the evidence. It's commonly used in academic circles...bibliography, quotes, references...you know, sources? This is just a discussion forum so links are acceptable and appreciated.

In education it's called PEE. Point, Evidence, Explain. Mnemonics. Good students always remember to 'PEE all over the assignment!'



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 06:53 PM
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reply to post by Kandinsky
 


I am quite surprised you would continue to maintain the SS is not an engineering text and does not contain the information on the machines. How you can make such a negative claim is really beyond me, and suggests a wilful ignorance.

The SS has got nothing to do with forbidden archaeology web sites(Michael Cremo et al) it is an engineering encyclopaedia compiled in the 12th century by King Bhoja. It is divided into 83 chapters

Here are some excerpts from it:

“The architect should be well-versed in the science involving the significance of objects to be created and their specificationss. He should know the theory and the practice; he should have the insight and the skill accompanied with procedure.
That person is said to be an expert in workmanship who knows how to sketch the ground plan, draftsmanship, the horizontal and vertical measurements, the details of ground work of the plot, the 14 kinds of sketch lines, the cutting of the logs and stones etc., and seven kinds of circular sections; well finished joinings of the joints and proper demarcation of upper, lower and outer lines.
An sthapati should know eight-fold workmanship, the draftsmanship and sketches of various kinds, and variety of carpentery, stone-masonry and gold-smithy. The engineer equipped with these merits invokes respect. One who knows the fourfold engineering with its eight constituents and who is pure in his mind gets status in the assembly of engineers, and is endowed with a long life.

Here are scholarly articles on the SS:

www.new.dli.ernet.in...
www.new.dli.ernet.in...


Here is the Sanskrit describing the machines, including the antikeythra mechanism in the SS: You can have it translated if you really are that incredulous and confirm it.

The following is describing the aeroplanes.

SS 31.95-98:
laghu-dAru-mayaM mahAviha~NgaM dR^iDha-sushliShTa-tanuM vidhAya tasya |
udare rasa-yantraM-AdhIta jvalAdhAram-adho.asya chAgni-pUrNaM ||
tatrArUDhaH pUruShas-tasya pakSha-dvandvoch-chAla-proj-jhitenAnilena |
supta-svAntaH pAradasyAsya shaktyA chitraM kurvan-nambare yAti dUraM ||
itthmeva suramandira-tulyaM sa~nchalatya-laghu dAru vimAnam |
AdadhIta vidhinA chaturo.antas-tasya pArada-bhR^itAn dR^iDha-kumbhAn ||
ayaH kapAlAhita-mandavahni-pratapta-tat-kumbha-bhuvA guNena |
vyomno jhagityAbharaNa tvameti santatapta-garjad-rasa-rAja-shaktyA ||

English: Strong and durable must the body be made, like a great flying bird, of light material. Inside it one must place the Mercury-engine with its iron heating apparatus beneath. By means of the power latent in the mercury which sets the driving whirlwind in motion, a man sitting inside may travel a great distance in the sky in a most marvelous manner. Similarly by using the prescribed processes one can build a vimana as large as the temple of the God-in-motion. Four strong mercury containers must be built into the interior structure. When these have been heated by controlled fire from iron containers, the vimana develops thunder-power through the mercury. And at once it becomes a pearl in the sky. Moreover, if this iron engine with properly welded joints be filled with mercury, and the fire be conducted to the upper part it develops power with the roar of a lion.


The following is describing the antikeythra machine

SS 31.61-62:
sUryAdi-graha-gati-pradarshana-paraM gola-bhramaNaM
golash-cha sUchi-vihitaH sUryAdInAM pradakShiNaM |
pari-bhrAmyaty-ahorAtraM grahANAM darshayan gatiM |

English: Images of the sun and the planets are made to revolve without any connection and these revolutions show the occurrence of day and night and the motions of planets.


Do you accept now that this text really is an engineering text and actually exists?



Regarding the references to the other texts

Sushratha Samhita:

chestofbooks.com...

This is a vast encyclopaedia on surgery and medicine composed in ancient times. You will find nothing like it until modern times. It’s systems of classification of drugs, disease, symptoms is so scientific and precise, even modern systems are not as precise.

I was particularly impressed on just how precise it is in treating eye diseases of various types. It lists 76 different eye diseases, which affect different parts of the eyes(pupil etc) and 51 are treated using surgical processes, which in turn are subdivided.


The four types of Abhishyandha (Ophthalmatis), the four types of Adhi-mantha, the two forms of Akshi-páka (suppuration of the eye) attended with or without swelling, these ten, as well as Hatádhimantha, Anila-Parjáya, Śuskákshi-páka, Anyato-váta, Amládhyu#a, Drishti, Sirot-páta and Sirá-Harsha are the names of the (seventeen kinds of) diseases which affect the eye as a whole. Nearly all these forms of eye-diseases may result from the Abhishyanda (Ophthalmitis). Hence a wise physician shall try speedily to remedy a case of Abhishyanda (Ophthalmitis )as soon as it is found out. 2.
Specific Symptoms Of Abhishyanda
The symptoms which mark a case of Abhishyanda due to the action of the deranged Váyu are pricking pain (in the eyes), numbness, horripilation and irritation in the eyes, roughness and parchedness of the organ, cold lachrymations and headache. A case of Pittaja-Abhishyanda exhibits the following features, viz., burning and inflammatory suppuration of the eyes, longing for coldness (in the eyes), excessive hot lachrymations, cloudy vision and a yellowness of the eye. In the Kaphaja type of the disease, the affected organ longs for the contact of warm articles and is attended with a heaviness, itching sensation, swelling, excessive whiteness and a constant deposit and discharge of slimy mucus. The special type of this disease which has its origin in the vitiated condition of the blood, i. e. the Raktaja type is marked by redness of the eyes, flow of copper-coloured tears, as well as the symptoms of the Pittaja type of the disease and the presence of deep red stripes all along. 3-6.



We have already described the names and symptoms of the seventy-six kinds of eye disease. We shall now briefly and severally deal with the nature of treatment to be pursued in them. Of these seventy-six kinds eleven should be treated with incision operations (Chhedya), nine with scarification (Lekhya), five with excision (Bhedya), fifteen with venesection (Vyádhya); twelve cases should not be operated upon and seven admit only of palliative measures (Yápya), while fifteen should be given up by an experienced physician (Ophthalmic surgeon) as incurable. The two kinds of eye-disease of traumatic origin should be likewise held as incurable or admitting only of palliative measures at the best. 2.
Names of the Chhedya and Lekhya eye-diseases - Diseases which should be treated with incision are Ars'o-vartma, Sushkárs'as, Arvuda, Sirá-Pidaká, Sirá-jala, the five types of Arman * and Parvaniká (thus numbering eleven in ali). Diseases in which scarification should be resorted to (numbering seven in all) are Utsangini, Rahala-vartma, Kardama-vartma, Syáva-vartma, Vaddha-vartma, Klishta-vartma, Pothaki, Kumbhikini, and Śarkará-vartma. 3-4.


This level of scientific classification and precision is very modern and yet this dates back to early than 1000BCE. To put things into perspective no scientific classification existed in Europe until Carolus Linnaeus' Systema Naturae (1st ed. 1735). Once again showing that the ancients are at modern levels of scientific development.


Panini

en.wikipedia.org...


The Ashtadhyayi (IAST: Aṣṭādhyāyī Devanagari: अष्टाध्यायी) is the central part of Pāṇini's grammar, and by far the most complex. It is at once the most exhaustive as well as the shortest grammar of Classical Sanskrit, or indeed, of any language.[8] It takes material from the lexical lists (Dhatupatha, Ganapatha) as input and describes algorithms to be applied to them for the generation of well-formed words. It is highly systematised and technical. Inherent in its generative approach are the concepts of the phoneme, the morpheme and the root, only recognized by Western linguists some two millennia. His rules have a reputation for perfection — that is, they are claimed to describe Sanskrit morphology fully, without any redundancy. A consequence of his grammar's focus on brevity is its highly unintuitive structure, reminiscent of modern notations such as the "Backus–Naur Form". His sophisticated logical rules and technique have been widely influential in ancient and modern linguistics.

The Backus-Naur form (Panini-Backus form) or BNF grammars used to describe modern programming languages have significant similarities to Pāṇini grammar rules. Pāṇini's grammar can be considered to be the world's first formal system, well before the 19th century innovations of Gottlob Frege and the subsequent development of mathematical logic. To design his grammar, Pāṇini used the method of "auxiliary symbols," in which new affixes are designated to mark syntactic categories and the control of grammatical derivations. This technique was rediscovered by the logician Emil Post and is now a standard method in the design of computer programming languages.


This level of mathematical linguistics and logic does not exist until the 20th century. In fact Panini continues to inspire even 21st century linguistics.

[edit on 12-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 07:03 PM
link   
I am linking this here because I was running out of characters in the last post:

Here is a readable passage on google books on the SS:

Click here


In summary, I think one should sit up and take notice. We are finding modern levels of scientific texts in 1000BCE and prior. I mean come on an ancient text on what is basically computer science theory? One feature I have noticed again and again in my sojourn with Sanskrit civilisation is how how incredibly structured and logical it is. The classification of everything whether it be medicine/disease/symptoms, verbs, roots, prefixes, suffixes, division of labour is very precise and scientific. This alone indicates a highly advanced civilisation that is more than capable of reaching our technological heights.

[edit on 12-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 15 2010 @ 07:11 AM
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Indigo, have you noticed that compared to Mahabharata, Ramayana has way more use of vimanas whereas Mahabharata has rathas or chariots on the battlefield? This itself probably shows the difference in technology between the different yugas. Weapons are often obtained through either the chanting of mantras or meditation in these texts.

As the yugas progress, spirtuality decreases, this is how it is written in the vedas. So at the end of Dwapara Yuga, it was probably much tougher to obtain these flying chariots than in Treta yuga or Rama's time, although the knowledge was definetely not lost, as you have shown that it was compiled as late as the Kali Yuga which is our yuga. It's just like having knowledge about meditation or Yoga, but very few people reach that high state in this yuga unlike previous yugas where it's depicted there were way more rishis or really religious ppl.

This is mostly the reason why also such technology boggles the mind coz this yuga is the most spirtually devolved of the lot.



posted on Jan, 15 2010 @ 05:23 PM
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I have one simple question.

The OP said that this SS text (I can't spell it so I will save myself the embarrassment) is an engineering "manual", right? Kind of like a technical textbook?

If so, and provided it IS translated to a language we can understand, like English, can we build one of these? It must not be that hard since it is one of 83 chapters in that book (I don't know how big that book is but 83 chapters? Each chapter must not be that big in itself).

It would be cool to have a make-it-yourself, cheap and durable aircraft. Since the ancient Hindus had them, why not us too? We have the instructions on how to build them, right?



posted on Jan, 15 2010 @ 07:54 PM
link   
reply to post by Maegnas
 


The SS is an engineering text indeed, but it is an encylopedic type of text. This means it only gives general details and instructions on various matters pertaining to engineering and architecture, but not highly detailed and technical schematics. The text was compiled by king Bhoja in the 12th century, after the libraries of India were destroyed by muslim invaders, using ancient sources. It is thus mainly a reference text. The chapter on machines is thus a compilation of known machines rather than a technical guide on building machines.

Another reason why we do not find detailed schematics is becase in the Sanskrit tradition in general details or mathematical proofs are generally not given. Most of the texts are written in terse statements(called sutras, literally meaning compressed string) which cannot be normally understood without further commentary and exposition by experts in that tradition. So basically in ancient times, a statement would be given to the students, and then the statement would be expanded in class. Some of these commentaries on major texts are still extant today.

The general information on building these planes given in the SS is:


Strong and durable must the body be made, like a great flying bird, of light material. Inside it one must place the Mercury-engine with its iron heating apparatus beneath. By means of the power latent in the mercury which sets the driving whirlwind in motion, a man sitting inside may travel a great distance in the sky in a most marvelous manner. Similarly by using the prescribed processes one can build a vimana as large as the temple of the God-in-motion. Four strong mercury containers must be built into the interior structure. When these have been heated by controlled fire from iron containers, the vimana develops thunder-power through the mercury. And at once it becomes a pearl in the sky. Moreover, if this iron engine with properly welded joints be filled with mercury, and the fire be conducted to the upper part it develops power with the roar of a lion.


One cannot really build a plane from this information, but it does give some clues: Mercury is the fuel used which is placed in containers, they are heated by some iron apparatus, this releases some kind of latent eletric power within the mercury i.e., ionized vapour and then controlled to produce thrust. This seems to be describing an ion-engine.


This engine works on the principle of the ionization of the propellant gas through the use of direct electron bombardment or radio frequency fields to increase the temperature of the gas and cause the desired thrust.
The gas used to propel this type of engine is either the gas Ar (Argon) or Xe (Xenon), or the vaporized form of Hg (Mercury) or Cs (Cesium).
This stored gas enters the ionization chamber to increase its temperature up to the thrust temperature.
The increase in temperature is done through the ionization of the gas.
It passes through two acceleration grids which bombard it with positive ions from the power source.
Before reaching the nozzle the accelerated mass of ionized gas is injected with electrons.
Thrust is obtained, and the exhaust beam is electrically neutral behind the thruster nozzle. (10)


www.oswego.edu...


[edit on 15-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 15 2010 @ 08:38 PM
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reply to post by Indigo_Child
 


So, since you cannot manufacture a vimana based on the description offered in SS, one could say that it is not exactly an engineering text, right? Not a manual, not a do-it-yourself guide.

Kinda like the description of Icarus' wings. We KNOW, from reference in many Greek texts, that they were made out of wax, of some sort. They were fitted on to the body of the flier and were, apparently, "operated" by the flier's physical strength alone. Yet, they managed to carry Icarus so close to the Sun that the wings melted and he fell to his demise. Since there is pretty much the same amount of technical information available on both flying devices and both flying devices are described, as vaguely as they are described, in texts that were written much later, by people that couldn't even verify if these devices were ever put to real use or even if they were made as "prototypes" to be tested, we can assume one of two things. Either both devices are myths, figments of fertile imaginations that were so elaborately created that included technical details (kinda like the Star Trek of the ancient world) or that both devices were actually built and used at some point in time. to claim that one of these was "real" while the other was not without SOME solid evidence is plain speculating, no?

Talking it one step further, if we assume that both devices were real and were made and used, and taking into account the distribution of heat in the atmosphere (and again assuming that both texts are "correct" in their details), then we face one inevitable conclusion: Icarus must have gone considerably far from the surface of the Earth for the Sun's heat to melt his wings! Are we facing the first confirmed attempt to a space flight here? If the arguments presented for the vimanas are so valid, the same arguments (albeit different texts are used as reference or proof of existence) for Icarus must also be valid and then you HAVE to entertain the notion that Icarus was the first astronaut! If you deny this, what weight is there in claiming that ancient Hindus had airplanes?



[edit on 15-1-2010 by Maegnas]





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