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Mechanical Engineering in Ancient times

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posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 09:14 AM
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There is a bias, perhaps unconscious, but it is present nonetheless. This bias is to deny the ancients advanced technology, but it is OK if we ascribe them advanced ideas. I want to abridge this gap between advanced ideas and advanced technology in this thread. I propose the ancients not only had advanced ideas, they also had advanced technology(aeroplanes, WMD, computers and robots) and there is evidence to show this is true.

Advanced technology is basically applied advanced thought. The more scientific and advanced the thought the more scientific and advanced the technology. Technology does not exist separately from science. It is clear if we look at the evolution of science and technology that technology grows in proportion to development in scientific thought. For example complex technology like computers could not have been possible before advances in logic and mathematics.

Advanced ideas in the ancient world

Pingala was an ancient music theorist who composed the Sanskrit treatise Chandrashastra. The Chandrashatra uses advanced computer science concepts like hashing algorithms in order to convert letters into binary and vis versa. He also used error checking algorithms in order to ensure the accuracy of an orally transmitted text.

Panini was an ancient Sanskrit grammarian who composed the Asthayadhi a treatise on grammar. Panini uses advanced computer concepts like recursions, meta-rules, transformations, and computer programming conventions.

Hashing algorithms, binary, error checking codes, recursions, meta-rules are all modern computer science notions and presuppose advanced developments in logic. The very fact that they were known in ancient times throws a proverbial spanner in the works of the current narrative of history of the ancient world. No pun intended, but it does not compute. Applying my assumption that advanced technology is applied advanced thought. The fact that the ancients had advanced thought necessarily means that they should have advanced technology as well. That is , they should have been well acquainted with machines of all kinds because the very basic requirement of advanced thought was fulfilled.

There is no reason why the ancients could not have developed robots, computers, aeroplanes, advanced weapons, they were advanced enough in scientific thought to do it. But you may protest why do we not find any evidence of the advanced machines of the ancients then? On the contrary we do, and I will argue you are wilfully being blind. So far we have found the ancients had batteries, a very advanced mechanical computing device and we are still not settled on how they could move 15 ton bricks and build perfectly aligned structures like the Giza Pyramids. Who knows what we find later, maybe the remains of an ancient aeroplane?

Also, you are wilfully being blind to the largest corpus of ancient literature we can find, the Sanskrit literature of the Indians, in which there are explicit references to machines and other advanced technology(even human cloning)

Ancient India’s history is shaping up to be the most accurate history we have of the ancient world. Once considered mythology, more and more evidence is now piling up showing us that it is actual real history. The places mentioned, the people who lived, the dynasties, the descriptions of engineering and architecture all have now been corroborated with archaeological evidence. In other words events like the great Mahabharata war, describing wondrous things like aeroplanes, robots, WMD, really happened.

If all that is true then it means the allusions to machines are most likely true too. The ancients must have had machines otherwise they would not allude to them so extensively across their whole corpus of literature and describe various types for various purposes. The fact is they even have a word for machine “Yantra” how could they have a word for something that does not exist?

The 12th century text Samararigana-sutradha(SS) is an encyclopaedic Sanskrit text on engineering and construction compiled by the king Bhoja using sources going back into antiquity. It also has a whole chapters on machines. It describes various kinds of machines

Flying machines, known as “Vimanas” are the most widely referenced and several types of Vimanas are described. The SS describes one particular kind:

1) It was made of light wood- at least conceptually it was something light so as to fly. 2) It had a mercury-containing device in its “belly” and fire and at the rear end. 3) Its body was well-welded (or firmly joined) and had two wings and resembled a large bird. 4) Repeatedly the king says it runs by the “power” of mercury, which is described as contained in four firm pots/vessels. These are heated by a slow fire from an iron heating vessel. “Powered by mercury it roars into the sky”.


Weapon machines include machines that can fire at multiple targets, fire multiple missiles, seek out and destroy targets and weapons of mass destruction.

Leisure and practical machines: These include robots, automatic doors, computational devices:

1) the vAri-yantra running on water flow, 2) yantras for creating wonders like showing fire in water 3) “Robotic” parrot, elephant and men and women act together and automatic beating of drums. 4 )A remote controlled door-keeper for the night who blocks thieves. 5) A mechanical lift for raising objects 6) Siege machines for defending forts and robotic door guards.


There are many descriptions of quite believable automata that were actually constructed and used in the palaces of wealthy kings. These include: singing and dancing birds, a dancing elephant, elaborate chronometers with moving ivory figures and an astronomical instrument showing the movements of the planets.

Here is a description taken from the twelfth-century Samararigana-sutradha-ra:
Male and female figures are designed for various kinds of auto- matic service. Each part of these figures is made and fitted separately, with holes and pins, so that thighs, eyes, neck, hand, wrist, forearm and fingers can act according to need. The material used is mainly wood, but a leather cover is given to complete the im- pression of a human being. The movements are managed by the system of poles, pins and strings attached to rods controlling each limb. Looking into a mirror, playing a lute and stretching out the hand to touch, give pan, sprinkle water and make obeisance are the acts done by these figures.


Source

The SS also describes a computational device is used to calculate the motions of planets and eclipses, the sUryAdi-graha-gati-pradarshana-paraM gola-bhramaNaM yantra.


One cannot wilfully ignore such detailed descriptions of these various machines that are purported to have definitely existed. Although all these Yantras or machines have now been lost to antiquity, we have been able to recover one of them, the computational device used to calculate the motion of planets and eclipses:


The device is remarkable for the level of miniaturization and for the complexity of its parts, which is comparable to that of 18th century clocks. It has over 30 gears, although Michael Wright (see below) has suggested as many as 72 gears, with teeth formed through equilateral triangles. When a date was entered via a crank (now lost), the mechanism calculated the position of the Sun, Moon, or other astronomical information such as the location of other planets. Since the purpose was to position astronomical bodies with respect to the celestial sphere, with reference to the observer's position on the surface of the earth, the device was based on the geocentric model.[11]


www.antikythera-mechanism.gr...

Heron of Alexandra is another source from where we find that mechanical engineering of the ancients was very advanced:


Hero described construction of the aeolipile (a version of which is known as Hero's engine) which was a rocket-like reaction engine and the first-recorded steam engine (although Vitruvius mentioned the aeolipile in De Architectura some 100 years earlier than Hero). It was created almost two millennia before the industrial revolution. Another engine used air from a closed chamber heated by an altar fire to displace water from a sealed vessel; the water was collected and its weight, pulling on a rope, opened temple doors.[11] Some historians have conflated the two inventions to assert that the aeolipile was capable of useful work.[12]




Therefore it would seem the ancients not only just had advanced ideas, they had advanced technology as well. This post presents the clearest proof of it. I will add further, by combining the research in this thread with the research in my other threads(India: advanced superpower) that it is very clear 10,000 years ago civilisation was at modern levels of science and technology. It is also clear that some very deadly cataclysm has taken place which destroyed this hi-tech civilisation on this planet resulting in the loss of that global civilisation.

[edit on 10-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]




posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 09:59 AM
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i always believed older Mechanical Engineering in Ancient times were true.


that small machine computer found under water is the best example its very old. not sure where it was found in france or greece ?



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 10:25 AM
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ABSOLUTELY GREAT THREAD aspx!! Thank you for something both informative and captivating. S&F for this.



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 10:41 AM
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reply to post by aspx
 



The intricate bronze instrument has puzzled scientists ever since it was recovered in A.D. 1901. The device was one of many treasures found in a Roman shipwreck discovered by a sponge diver just off Antikythera island, off the southern coast of Greece (map of Greece).


news.nationalgeographic.com...

The article concludes that this is probably not the only advanced machine in ancient times, and there are probably many more to be found. So far this is the best evidence we have for how advanced our ancients were in mechanical engineering. The amazing fact is that this machine is described in the Sanskrit text(SS) which mentions even more amazing machines like mercury-propelled aeroplanes and robots.

The ancients must have had aeroplanes and robots. In fact if we give them that, it must mean they had everything we had, if not more.

[edit on 10-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 11:00 AM
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It seems that the ancient civilisations have always developed to our level and then been wiped out, most likely through their own technology. Somehow I can see that happening to our current civilisation too.

If only people today could realise that we aren't the most advanced people of the world. People automatically assume that everything has advanced linearly when quite clearly people thousands of years ago had knowledge well above our level of understanding. Pity we haven't found any decent records of it...

S&F

[edit on 10/1/10 by AdamH]



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 11:28 AM
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reply to post by Indigo_Child
 




There is a bias, perhaps unconscious, but it is present nonetheless. This bias is to deny the ancients advanced technology, but it is OK if we ascribe them advanced ideas. I want to abridge this gap between advanced ideas and advanced technology in this thread. I propose the ancients not only had advanced ideas, they also had advanced technology(aeroplanes, WMD, computers and robots) and there is evidence to show this is true.


You bet there is a bias, if it doesn't fit todays scientific model or method it is thrown out or denied, it is mind boggling what is hidden from us, the arrogance never ceases to amaze me. There are scientists who will go out on a limb and take the chance that they will get chastised or lose their funding by telling the truth. The big question is why and what are they afraid of, never could wrap my mind around that.



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:26 PM
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I think a lot of ancient technology was simple but able to do very complex things.

Fascinating facts about the invention of the Abacus by the Chinese in 3000 BC.



The Chinese abacus was developed about 5000 years ago. It was built out of wood and beads. It could be held and carried around easily. The abacus was so successful that its use spread form China to many other countries. The abacus does not actually do the computing, as today's calculators do. It helps people keep track of numbers as they do the computing.

Function: noun / ab·a·cus
Definition: A counting device: a mechanical device for making calculations consisting of a frame mounted with rods along which beads or balls are moved
Inventor: Chinese in c3000 BC




posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 01:25 PM
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What would you say if I told you about a war where they fired rockets and droped bombs on enmey targets below from aircraft while being protected behind there fortified walls.

Now would if I told you the fortified wall was the Great Wall of China and the aircraft were balloons and kites made of silk and yes they had bombs and rockets. Makes you wonder what else people don't know and how advanced they were.

www.crystalinks.com...



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 02:55 PM
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Apples and oranges, guys.

Yes they were advanced with what materials they had.

We are more advanced because of the materials we use.



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 02:56 PM
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Much of this advanced technology, unfortunately, was used by the ancients for the purposes of war, and as Adam said, it appears that this is what ultimately destroyed them.

The ancients had firearms, guns and cannons, explosives and what sounds like chemical, biological and even nuclear weapons.

The clearest reference to firearms and explosives is found in the Sanskrit text Arthashastra by Kautaliya which is a secular text on civil administration and statemanship. It describes a speak kind of weapon known as Agne-baan(fire-weapon)

Kautalya describes agni-bana and mentions three recipes - agni-dharana, ksepyo-agni-yoga, and visvasaghati. Visvasaghati was composed of 'the powder of all the metals as red as fire or the mixture of the powder of kumbhi, lead, zinc, mixed with the charcoal and with oil wax and turpentine.' From the nature of the ingredients of the different compositions it would appear that they were highly inflammable and could not be easily extinguished.

A recent writer remarks: 'The Visvasaghati-agni-yoga was virtually a bomb which burst and the fragments of metals were scattered in all directions. The agni-bana was the fore-runner of a gun-shot.....

The fire-weapon seems to have been a category of a weapon and the "agni-bana" was one such weapon. The ancients categorised weapons into the 5 elements: fire weapons, earth weapons, water weapons, wind weapons and etheric weapons. The use of such weapons is mentioned especially in the epic texts of Sanskrit literature.

There is also a description to a class of chemical and biological weapons in Book XIV touches on aspects of chemical and biological warfare.

The book says that smoke from burning a powder made from the skin and excreta of certain reptiles, animals and birds can cause madness and blindness in the enemy. The book also provides the formula to create a lethal smoke by burning certain species of snakes, insects and plant seeds in makeshift laboratories.

It is interesting to note that although these weapons are definitely advanced for their timeframe and indicate the ancients were well aware of explosives, firearms and basic chemical and biological weapons, the descriptions found in the epic text which are thousands of years earlier than the Arthshastra mention far more destructive grades of these weapons, which we would today call WMD:


It was as if the elements had been unleashed. The sun spun around in circles. Scorched by the fearful heat of the weapon, the world reeled. Elephants were burnt by the incandescent heat and ran wildly to and fro….Water boiled; animals died…The raging fire made the trees topple like ninepins as if in a forest fire….Horses and chariots burnt up; it looked like the aftermath of a conflagration. Thousands of chariots were destroyed, then deep silence descended…It was a ghastly sight to see. The corpses of the fallen were so mutilated by the frightful heat that they no longer looked like human beings. Never before have we seen such an awful weapon, and never before have we heard of such a weapon.”

“The heavens cried out, the earth bellowed an answer, lightning flashed forth, fire flamed upwards, it rained down death. The brightness vanished, the fire was extinguished. Everyone who was struck by the lightning was turned to ashes.”



Mahabharata: the Drona aBhisheka (Chapter XI) and the Harivamsa (Chapter LVI), offer descriptions of other major destructions from the same war in which whole cities were “consumed in an all-encompassing inferno“ and “plunged into the water depths.” These accounts conclude with the defeat of a peoples called the Avantis—)very close to Plato’s Atlantis.!)

In the Hindu epic poems of the Mahabharata and Ramayana are even more detailed descriptions of an age thousands of years ago when great god-kings rode about in their Vimanas or flying craft and waged war by launching powerful weapons at their enemies.

The descriptions given of these weapons in the ancient verses—their force, the characteristics of their destruction and the after-affects—sound disturbingly modern. The texts describe:

*The thunderbolt of Indra was endowed with the force of thousand-eyed Indra’s thunder.
*The bolt of death measured three cubits by six. It was the unknown weapon, the iron thunderbolt of Indra, the messenger of death.
*The projectile was charged with all the power of the Universe.
*The Agneya weapon was capable of being resisted by none of the very gods themselves.
*The Brahma-danda or Brahma’s rod was even more powerful.
*Though it struck only once, it smote whole countries and entire races from generation to generation.
*Adwattan let loose the blazing missile of smokeless fire.
*The missile burst with the power of thunder.
*The flying missile ruined whole cities filled with forts.
*The three cities of the Vrishnis and Andhakas were destroyed together in one instant.
*An incandescent column of smoke and fire as brilliant as ten thousand suns rose in all its splendor.
*Clouds roared upward showering dust and gravel.
*Dense arrows of flame like a great shower issued forth upon creation, encompassing the enemy on all sides.
*The sky blazed and the ten points of the horizon filled with smoke.
*Meteors flashed down from the sky.
*Fierce winds began to blow, and the very elements seemed disturbed.
*The sun appeared to waver in the heavens.
*The earth and all its mountains and seas and forests began to tremble.
*The wind blew as a fierce storm and the earth glowed.
*No one saw the fire—it was unseen. Yet it consumed everything.
*As rain poured down it was dried in mid-air by the heat.
*Birds croaked madly, and beasts shuddered from the destruction.
*Animals crumpled to the ground, their heads broken, and they died over a vast region.
*Elephants burst into flame, running to and fro in frenzy seeking protection.
*The waters of rivers and lakes boiled and the creatures residing therein perished.
*Thousands of war vehicles fell down on either side.
*Whole armies collapsed like trees in a forest burnt where they stood as in a raging fire.
*Corpses were so burnt they were no longer recognizable.
*The gaze of the Kapilla weapon was powerful enough to burn fifty thousand men to ashes.
*The thunderbolt reduced to ashes the entire race of Vrishnis and Ankhakas.
*To escape the breath of death the warriors leapt into rivers to wash themselves and bury their armor.
*Hair and nails fell out.
*Unborn children were killed in the womb.
*Birds were born with white feathers, red feet and in the shape of turtles.
*Pottery broke without cause.
*All foods became poisoned and inedible.
*The land was afflicted by drought thereafter for ten long years.


Source


There is no reason to doubt that these weapons existed. So far we have found almost everything that was considered the mythological from the advanced machines of the ancients to the class of fire-weapons is real.
It seems clear there was a very deadly nuclear war in ancient times that destroyed this global hi-tech civilisation.

We even have archeological evidence now that this nuclear war did in fact take place:


The archaeological expedition, which carried out excavations near the Indian settlement of Mohenjo-Daro in the beginning of the 1900s, uncovered the ruins of a big ancient town. The town belonged to one of the most developed civilizations in the world. The ancient civilization existed for two or three thousand years. However, scientists were a lot more interested in the death of the town, rather than in its prosperity. Researchers tried to explain the reason of the town's destruction with various theories. However, scientists did not find any indications of a monstrous flood, skeletons were not numerous, there were no fragments of weapons, or anything else that could testify either to a natural disaster or a war. Archaeologists were perplexed: according to their analysis the catastrophe in the town had occurred very unexpectedly and it did not last long.

Scientists Davneport and Vincenti put forward an amazing theory. They stated the ancient town had been ruined with a nuclear blast. They found big stratums of clay and green glass. Apparently, archaeologists supposed, high temperature melted clay and sand and they hardened immediately afterwards. Similar stratums of green glass can also found in Nevada deserts after every nuclear explosion.

A hundred years have passed since the excavations in Mohenjo-Daro. The modern analysis showed, the fragments of the ancient town had been melted with extremely high temperature - not less than 1,500 degrees centigrade. Researchers also found the strictly outlined epicenter, where all houses were leveled. Destructions lessened towards the outskirts. Dozens of skeletons were found in the area of Mohenjo-Daro - their radioactivity exceeded the norm almost 50 times.


[edit on 10-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 03:27 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
So far we have found almost everything that was considered the mythological from the advanced machines of the ancients to the class of fire-weapons is real.

What was considered mythological? And what have we found to be real? AFAIK we havent found a 5000 year old nuke yet.

From what I can see you're quoting texts, not archeological finds.

[edit on 10-1-2010 by merka]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 12:43 AM
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So did it HAVE to be a nuclear explosion?

Meteor impacts are known for this too...

en.wikipedia.org...

Tektites

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 11/1/2010 by MissMegs]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 07:29 AM
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I think we can safely rule out the meteorite hypothesis because no evidence of a meteorite impact has been found(no impact creator, no meteorite fragments) We must look at the available evidence and derive our conclusions from that. If we look at the available evidence:

We have records of a hi-tech civilisation that once existed in ancient times and we have even found remains of one of the machines they had. This has now been lost, indicating something has happened which destroyed this hi-tech civilisation.

We have records of devestating wars using WMD which accurately depict a nuclear weapon, exactly around the timeframe we find ruins of cities which have been devestated by something that was able to produce a heat in excess of 1500 degress causing rocks to vitrify and clay to turn into green goblets, as well as radioactive skeletons scattered all over the towns, some holding hands as if some terrible destruction from above was about to strike them.

The best explanation to account for the evidence is an ancient nuclear war.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 08:56 AM
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The robots you speak of where more like the animatronics used in amusement parks around the world today. They were also used for Amusement in ancient times and in some cases used during worship for religious deities, or both, using mathematic algorithms as you have stated.
The automatic doors were also used in worship, opening the doors for the worshipers at specified intervals also using mathematic algorithms as you have stated.
There were found vending machines that would for instance dispense a pre-measured amount of water when an offering was made to the specific deity that was being worshiped.
The steam engine has been verified, that it was created, what has not been verified was any practical use of the device.
There has been physical evidence found of these things above, but what has not been found is physical evidence of flying machines, atomic bombs and computers (in the modern sense). Why would we find physical evidence of some of their “technology” and not evidence of other such “technology”?


[edit on 1/11/2010 by AlienCarnage]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 09:38 AM
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reply to post by AlienCarnage
 


Valid question.

The answer to not finding a nuke is obvious, it is most probably detonated.

The answer to why we would find some technology and not others is because the chances of finding them is very low. The antikythera mechanism was found only 100 years ago, that too in a shipwreck under water. Prior to only a few decades ago the extent of mechanical engineering in ancient times was not known until we could decode the antikythera mechanism.

The fact of the matter is the SS text cited above that mentions the antikytheera mechanism, the amusement macines, the steam engines are all described in that text and we know they are all real. The same text mentions amongst them aeroplanes as well and describes it in detail, even down to the propulsion system it used. Why should we suddenly become skeptical now, when so far the rest it has mentioned has been verified? That alone is sufficient evidence to believe that these aeroplanes existed.

In absence of physical evidence(due to the obvious contraints of time) textual evidence should suffice.

Nuclear weapons and computers etc may sound very amazing, but realistically speaking, science really only started taking off in the West around the 16th century with the rise of the enlightenment. Only in a matter of centuries were computers and nuclear weapons possible. This is not a great amount of time to go from premodern to modern.

Such an enlightenment happens thousands of years earlier in the East, so why would they not also be able to achieive nuclear weapons and computers thousands of years earlier? There are way too many anomolies in ancient times which are thousands of years ahead of the modern era.
The Antikeythra mechanism has an 18th century level of engineering and miniturization. The Indus valley cities have an 19th century level of urban development. The ancient steel production has an 18th century level of metallurgical development. The logic and linguistics of ancient Indians has a 20th century level of development. The physical theories of Indian atomists has a 20th century level of development(they even mention subatomic particles and chemical bonding).

Then of course we have random discoveries like ancient batteries.

Repeatedly we can see that the ancients are already at modern levels of development in various fields. In other words our level of modern development is not a new thing at all and has been reached before in the past. In all likliness, the ancients probably were flying around in aeroplanes 5000 years ago and using advanced machines and whatnot.

[edit on 11-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 10:28 AM
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reply to post by Indigo_Child
 


Indigo, if you take the way the bombs are depicted by the scriptures which is with the shooting of an arrow which in turn is obtained mostly through the chanting of a sacred shloka or meditation, which again narrows it down it to very few capable people who have practiced it all their life and turn out to be great heroes as in the epics. This really decreases the chances of finding them exponentially. NOTE im talking about the bombing arrows here. Dont know about any other types of bombs.

Secondly, the Mahabharata and Ramayana happened so long ago in a country which has been inhabited by a population which literally doesnt let go of it's cities or places once considered sacred or holy and rarely misses anyone of them. The cities have been rebuilt over and over again on numerous occasions causing god knows how many layers over the actual city or spot. This is extremely disheartning as the country's current government couldnt give a rat's ass about archaelogy of just a thousand years let alone 3102 B.C. I doubt there are any big excavations like those in Egypt or Greece or Israel.

Not only India, Pakistan which definetly has heavy evidence of Aryan culture also isnt in a state to do so. We can forget places like Qandhar aka Gandhara altogether thanks to the war.




[edit on 11-1-2010 by Karmaverick]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by Indigo_Child
 


If you check some of my threads, and my posts in those threads you will see that I am not a skeptic, I am merely a person trying to put all of the pieces of the puzzle together trying to find the truth, much as under my user name you will find the phrase “Truth Seeker”, which is what I consider myself more than skeptic or believer. I simply want to find the truth, and to do that, I must question all things from all sides to see what stands the test of the questions and which ones falter.

I have brought up the Antikeythra mechanism in many of my posts and in doing so I have received many interesting answers from Byrd and others more knowledgeable than myself in these things. The common answer is that the Antikeythra mechanism is one item, but even if there were 5 items that does not mean that this technology was the norm, as there have not been these devices found all over. More than likely this device was owned by someone of stature since there are not these types of devices all over, it must have been an expensive device to own. If this is the case, if it were the norm of the elite to have these devices, we should be able to find at least 1 or 2 of such devices at least documented somewhere. This could also have been owned by the manufacturer, which could in fact have been a 1 off item, or it could have been a one off item that had been specifically been ordered. It is hard to say for certain without the knowledge of who this device’s owner was.

As far as documenting things they had and did not have, why could these documents not just be fantastical stories, not meant to be taken as a literal record of their technology? We have many stories these days that incorporates some of our modern day technology with some far out fantastic technology that we do not have access to. Should future generations find these stories, should they take it that we have huge star ships that can travel great distances at incredible speeds?

There is no way to be certain without physical proof to prove such things. Yes we can prove some of the technology that they had, but not all. Texts have to be taken with a grain of salt since our own texts could be taken out of context by future generations.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 11:47 AM
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reply to post by AlienCarnage
 


I agree with your your piecing pieces of the puzzle approach. I also adopt the same approach. I am also a truth seeker, and will only only go where the evidence takes me, and not where my wishes take me.

Regarding the normalcy of technology like the antikeythra mechanism in ancient times. I think, and even the ancient records seem to suggest that advanced technology was not for the masses. The masses seem to live relatively less technological lifestyles, and technology that was used was used sparingly and for practical purposes by the elite classes. The reason why technology is widely available to the masses today is because of the capitalist economics we have. In our society, technology is mass-produced for mass-consumers to generate profit. It is easy to imagine a society that uses technology more sparingly than we do, and most people live a modest non-technological lifestyle.

Regarding the descriptions found in texual evidence of advanced technology. I think it is valid to discriminate between mythology and actual history as we would between fiction and non fiction. However, we also have to make sure we do not discriminate wrongly and end up putting what is actual history into the category of mythology.

The Sanskrit epic texts are not classed as mythology, they are classed as history(non fiction) If they are describing aeroplanes, WMD, robots, human cloning(which they do) we have to take it seriously. Of course, I do agree with you, that we cannot accept the existence of these things alone on the basis of what these epic texts state. But if you look at the entire corpus of the Sanskrit texts ranging from epic, philosophy, scientific to secular they all mention machines as actual real things, most widely referencing aeroplanes:

The SS text is not a mythological text it is an engineering text.


In 83 chapters, subjects treated are town planning, house architecture, temple architecture and sculptural arts together with Mudras (the different hand poses and the poses of the body as well as the postures of legs), the canons of painting, and a chapter on the art of mechanical contrivances, the yantras (chapter 31).


(Wiki: SS)

So far the machines SS mentions have all been verified to be real. It has a very detailed sub-chapter on aircraft: There are 230 stanzas dealing with the construction, take-off, cruising for thousand of miles, normal and forced landings, and even possible collisions with birds.

Although not certainly, it is definitely likely that this text is describing real flying machines the ancients had. And the fact that ancients could have flying machines is not really that surprising, because they had a suitable knowledge of mechanics and physical theories to do so. In fact, ditto with the atomic weapons. They understand chemistry to a very high degree, they knew about atoms and subatomic particles and they knew about chemical bonding, they also knew matter and energy were equivalent. Why could they not have proceeded as far as to splitting the atom?

[edit on 11-1-2010 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 12:14 PM
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reply to post by Indigo_Child
 


There are two main fiction epics that have spun off detailed documentation of how their fantastic far out technology works, including schematics and diagrams, and is presented in a way that if you were not familiar with the fiction stories they refer to, might look like manual for actual technology of our time, Some even depict the cities which are not too different from our cities, and other tech that matches our current tech. Does that mean that it should be taken as non fiction just because there is some information that is not fiction contained within?

I know the Sanskrit epic texts are not classed as mythology, but could we be mistaken in not doing so. What if we are wrong and only some of the things contained within these Sanskrit texts are true and some are fanciful things such as the texts I mentioned above, is there any way of knowing for certain? Scholars have known to be wrong on other things.

I once read a book, and this is only from memory but it was supposed that if our society had vanished and thousands of years from now people discovered the remains of our society would they know what our stuff was? If there was some kind of destructive blow that froze a moment in time, of a man puking into a toilet, would they assume that this man was praying to the toilet, and since a room was adjacent to the bedroom, would they think the person laying on the bed, was in fact laying on a sacrificial table of some kind, just food for thought. I don’t remember the book, but I remember it made me rethink a lot of what archeologists and scholars find decipher.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 01:11 PM
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reply to post by Indigo_Child
 



The ancients must have had aeroplanes and robots. In fact if we give them that, it must mean they had everything we had, if not more.


What is wrong with A&LC recently? These threads look like flag-whoring to me. They pop up with with ludicrous claims or rehash ideas that have been discussed before.

Why must the 'ancients' have had aeroplanes and robots?! Where is your certainty based? Where's your logic?! It's wishful thinking and using selected religious texts as an authority. Ironically, the certainty you ascribe to the religious texts is usually casually dismissed for any academic or historical texts.

Aeroplanes? Let's think. They need complex alloys produced on an industrial scale. Nuts, bolts, flanges, rubber gaskets, sheet metal and strong alloys for frames. They need washers for the bolts and nuts too. They need miles of wiring....different guages.

Moving parts? They require exotic oils...not crude, not olive oil. That requires fractioning towers to process the crude. Fractioning towers require Nuts, bolts, flanges, rubber gaskets, sheet metal and strong alloys for frames. They need washers for the bolts and nuts too. They need miles of wiring....different gauges.

Are we getting a pattern here?

That all requires infrastructure...trade routes, roads, workers, economics.

How does a culture get to that stage of sophistication? Well...they evolve through time like we have. This means huts to groups of huts, to better huts, houses and then towns to cities. These need to be linked by roads so the materials above can be transported. We need factories, education, specialization in the workforce.

None of these stages are avoidable and they require population growth reaching a 'critical mass' by which ideas are translatable into reality. 'Ahhh, but, but they destroyed themselves with nuclear warfare!' All of them? Everything? Did their technology exceed ours to the degree they invented 'eraser bombs?' Disintegrator beams?

Allowing for all of that I've pointed out, is it all conceivable that there actually weren't any robots or aeroplanes until the late 19th Century and since?? Is that a plausible, testable notion? The whole idea has no internal logical integrity. Before another page loads up, there'll be the usual ducking and dodging about TPTB, cover-ups Cremo and those two lazy-ass words 'forbidden archaeology.' Urgh!

PS I used to think that Harte was rather unforgiving in some threads, abrupt etc. I can see why now






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