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agnatheist?

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posted on Jan, 16 2010 @ 03:00 AM
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Originally posted by Astyanax

Originally posted by Wookiep

Well, a failure of comprehension (or rather, of imagination) doesn't prove a thing. As for seeing divinity in nature, this is not the same as believing in God; indeed, for Spinoza it was clear proof that a personal God, a God who was and could act apart from nature, couldn't exist. I agree with Spinoza, actually.


Not sure what that means.(failure of comprehension/imagination) so I won't divulge in speculation. As for seeing divinity in nature, I'm not familiar with "spinoza" so forgive my ignorance.. Unless this is a reference to some other type of explanation to our creation not withstanding a *creator*, then I do "fail" to see what you mean.






Yes, indeed, every scientific fact we have was discovered by a human scientist. But once the scientist published it, other human beings were free to test it and falsifiy it if they could. So the fact exists independent of the person who discovered it.



True stuff, sir/ma'am! That just seems kinda boring to me, not only that, but putting a LOT of stock in the human race as a whole. Some would call that a "faith" in the human being as their own personal "religion" of sorts. You're telling me that you trust the modern evolved man to be your source of "gospel" called science. Maybe that's why others look for something *else* I mean, who would want to put all their stock in *people*.. Really?? We are *IT*?? If that is the case, then I'm just incredibly bored. I don't believe it (again only due to my own experiences) but in the event I am wrong, lets all go back to sleep.






And nobody 'gave' us science. It developed from the natural processes of human learning, which it mimics in a very formalized way. I pointed this out earlier. Human learning processes evolved through natural selection and are substantially the same as those of other higher animals.



Again, I'm not dis-crediting or trying to attempt to di-credit science. I just happen to think it's here, it's real, VERY real in fact...But I hold the position that it's there for a *reason* not just by chance.



Of course, it is science itself that tells us this, so you could, if you were obstinate, argue that the explanation is doubtful as long as science is doubted. This would be to deny commonsense observation and inference, but it seems you are ready to do that:



How is believing science was put here for a reason beside chance and pure human speculation/discovery of such findings denying common-sense? I'd ask that you put away your pre-notions about believers in general as well.. That's a rather harsh statement. It seems I'm "ready" to acknowledge the fact that there is science, but added to that a real possibility that we aren't *all there is to offer* in the universe either..



You are wrong, though. It was not 'created by humans, and humans alone'. It evolved, and we are not the only animals that evolved it.



I have to correct you here.. Even if we assume evolution was here before science (which is a big possibility, tho that doesn't exclude a creator at all...it's too bad so many "believers" have closed themseves to that possibility) the FACT is, yes science was created by man. Not monkeys or any other relative to our DNA but MODERN humans. (unless of course, we are going to get into the realm of atlantis and ancient unknown civilizations...perhaps you have an argument there.)



I don't believe in the existence of God. Agnostics aren't sure whether God exists or not. That's the difference. It is very simple, really.

Thank you for the star, and for the kind things you said about my post.


you are totally entitled to not believing the exsistance of God, a creator, or anything spiritual. I look at it like this.. You asked me why it troubles me that man-kind alone would be the creators of this universe.




Why does it trouble you? Is there some other source of truth you would regard as more convincing? And how would you receive truth from this source without some kind of human intermediation, not least your own?


Do you not think it is just slightly arrogant to think human beings are the center of our universe? Do you think human beings can even operate in a civil manner on our little planet? I'm not going to quote history here, because I believe you are intelligent enough to understand my point.

If human beings are it and everthing happens by chance and science alone, then there may be some "wonders" about it, but it's not worth spending too much time discussing because you and I have much better things to do given we are just going to become ashes to ashes dust to dust in a matter of mere seconds compared to the mass scale of time in the universe. Good times.





[edit on 16-1-2010 by Wookiep]

[edit on 16-1-2010 by Wookiep]




posted on Jan, 16 2010 @ 06:13 AM
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reply to post by Wookiep
 

You aren't taking my meaning, which is why you think some of what I'm saying is offensive. I'm sorry I failed to make myself clear. I think I understand your position, though. Best we leave it at that.

Spinoza was a philosopher. You can read more about him here.



posted on Jan, 16 2010 @ 10:29 PM
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Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Wookiep
 

You aren't taking my meaning, which is why you think some of what I'm saying is offensive. I'm sorry I failed to make myself clear. I think I understand your position, though. Best we leave it at that.

Spinoza was a philosopher. You can read more about him here.


Sure, no problem. Sorry I'm missing all of what you were pointing out. I suppose it's hard sometimes not to be a little defensive about this kinda subject. I'm actually not offended by what you've said so far, I've heard faaaaar much more offensive statements before. Actually, This has been a pretty freakin civil thread and I'm happy about that.
Thanks for your responses here, and whenever I can make time I'll try to check that link!



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