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Unregulated Capitalism does not give opportunity to all

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posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 04:58 PM
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One of the major arguments from conservatives for capitalism is that it gives everybody the opportunity to succeed and make something of themselves. I must say I disagree on that assumption.

The system of unregulated capitalism needs a lower class to survive. Its common sense to understand that we cant all be successful and influencial. We can't all start a successful business and there is only a limited amount of a market out there to tap into. Now when we move away from the chanes of simply "becoming successful" there is the argument that we "have the opportunity" to become successful. How is that? Not all americans have the opportunity to become successful. Many are born into lives where their chances of even gaining an opportunity are nil.

Do we all have the opportunity to go to university? No because to many it is simply to expensive or simply are unable to keep up with the education standards. Some of us even have families to look after whether it is our own or our relatives.

Do we all have the opportunity to become interns? No as the jobs that usually lead to success are limited and on high demand.

Do we all have the opportunity to start a business let alone grow it? No, because to many of us our circumstances in life prevent us from persuing such opportunities. Those on the right assume that we are all born under the same cirumstances, they assume we all have open doors to us and they assume that a 9/10 chance of success in life is "opportunity" when it is no such thing.

Are we all born equal under the same circumstances? No. I'd also like to rally against the assumption that those who work at the lower end of the system are all there by their own faults. That is simply not true as in society we are brought up under circumstances for the most part beyond our control.

The truth is that the foundations of the free market or Capitalism centers around this assumptive view that we are "all equal" and that we all had the same golden spoons when we were born. Those assumptions are flawed and biased. Neither is the assumption that we all have been given the same opportunity.

Does this mean a system like Capitalism is unworkable? No not really. There should however be recognition of the circumstances of many under such a system and this why it is important the unfortunate bunch be priority as the odds are already stacked against them in life. People always forget that the system of capitalism needs folks like this in such unfair cirumstances. This system needs working class folks like myself to keep the system alive. So, the assumption that we all had an opportunity needs to be corrected.

This is why I get sick to death of when people assume that "everybody had an opportunity, or are just lazy" when it comes to opposing any support for the lower classes from government. Its a generalization the corporations would just love to keep alive so they could earn every last penny.

SG




posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 05:04 PM
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Quite true.

The least intrusive way to regulate capitalism is to cap wealth at a billion dollars. That way you get the bennies without the worst excesses. It's also about the only way "trickle down" could ever work.

Nobody needs that much money or wealth anyway.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 05:07 PM
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What I have discerned is that those on the "right" are fooled into believing they are part of the group of opportunity when really they are part of the other. This idealism will blind them into self-destructive choices that do not serve their wellbeing.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 05:22 PM
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Originally posted by EnlightenUp
What I have discerned is that those on the "right" are fooled into believing they are part of the group of opportunity when really they are part of the other. This idealism will blind them into self-destructive choices that do not serve their wellbeing.


Yeah, I've heard the statistic that something like 45% of people state that they expect to someday be in the top 1% of wage earners someday. Illusion and delusion are all that is keeping us from overthrowing our corporate slave-masters.

We need a hybrid system that MAXIMIZES freedom, opportunity and happiness!

Best,
Skunknuts


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posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 05:27 PM
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reply to post by Southern Guardian
 


It is not at all true that capitalism "assumes" that we are all equal, nor is capitalism predicated on the "assumption" that all businesses will succeed. Indeed, one of the primary tenets of capitalism is that it requires massive competition precisely because there will be businesses that fail, and massive competition will ensure that the economy as a whole will not feel the loss of some businesses.

Your assumptions of class warfare are rooted in Marxist ideology and have nothing to do with what capitalists believe. Capitalism does not require a "working class" in order to survive. Its survival is predicated on a free and unregulated market, massive competition and a stable currency backed by real wealth where everyone can agree on what the value is. It is the free and open exchange of goods and services in the market place and does not at all demand there be a working class in order to survive.

It is disingenuous to frame capitalism as a system where everybody experiences success. Failure is a fact of life and while some will fail they are not bound to a lifetime of failure. It is also revealing that you argue that is "common sense" that we can not all be successful and influential. It is a jaded view to argue that some people are not capable of knowing success, and will never succeed in life. The trick is to find that which we excel at and to keep working at it until we do succeed. Furthermore, we are all influential in one form or another and to dismiss a persons influence simply because they are disadvantaged says more about your beliefs than those of capitalists.

There is and has always been a disparity of economic advantage. One who inherits wealth does not have to work as hard as one who doesn't in order to have wealth. What capitalism does is level the playing field and allow for all comers to compete in the market place regardless of their station in life.

The minute the market place becomes regulated then that playing field becomes rigged to favor those who can afford to pay for the regulations imposed. The emotional baiting and strawman argument that capitalists or those on the right "assume" that people who are disadvantaged are lazy is a fallacious argument and has nothing to do with the tenets of capitalism.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 05:54 PM
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Young friend,
You should be immensely thankful for the opportunities you have. They will not last, precisely because you do not realize their worth.
Easy come, easy go. YOU did not earn the opportunities you have, so...
Easy come, easy go.

I am not sure you will understand what I am saying, but I will try...

My father died when I was 5 years old, leaving 5 children under 10. He was an engineer and the sole breadwinner (my mom was busy with kids). This was years ago, before "no bum left behind", and I thank god he was a vet and my mom was strong.
STILL, we had to work hard if we wanted anything at all above the subsistence level.
I got up at 4 am for a paper route, before school, in any weather. I had to BUY the papers and collect money door to door to pay for them and keep some for ourselves. If someone skipped out, I didn't get paid.
I collected bottles for the 2 cents a bottle I could get redeeming them.
Long story short, I worked my way up, bought a small business on payments and eventually opened two more stores.
Many people said, you can't do it. You are just a poor guy from a poor neighborhood. Smoke some dope, you'll feel better. I have already outlived many of my friends, and I am under 55, because they had no hope, I guess....
The point:
I had opportunity. I was HUNGRY.
I was fortunate to have been born into a country where there was free commerce, or capitalism. I was never told it is unlawful to go into a certain business because of my family name. I was not forced into working for the "state", or on a farm hundreds of miles from a police-state township. It was a free market. It still is, for now.

Be a vista volunteer for a few years, then come back and we will chat.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 05:57 PM
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Although unregulated capitalism is often a good way to allocate limited resources, it is not always the best way or even a decent way to allocate limited resources. Anybody who has ever cracked open an Economics textbook should know about market failures, which are instances where free markets have catastrophic results.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 05:59 PM
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reply to post by Stewie
 


Who exactly are you speaking to in your post that you refer to them as young friend? Regardless of who you are speaking to let it be stated that opportunities are neither earned nor are they granted they are either recognized and seized or they are not.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 06:01 PM
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Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
Although unregulated capitalism is often a good way to allocate limited resources, it is not always the best way or even a decent way to allocate limited resources. Anybody who has ever cracked open an Economics textbook should know about market failures, which are instances where free markets have catastrophic results.


The United States, and arguably the world, has never known or had the advantage of a free and unregulated market place. Indeed, the current market failure is not due to a free and unregulated market and is highly regulated.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 06:05 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


Very true.

In a true free market, sex and drugs are perfectly acceptable commodities, as there is a willing buyer and willing seller. Anyone who wants those regulated can't call themselves a "free-market capitalist" with any honesty.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 06:08 PM
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reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 

I was speaking to Southern Guardian. Based upon the content of his assertions, I am assuming he is young.
However,
addressing your "absolute" statement about opportunity.
If you do not recognize that you have "opportunities", then you really do not have them. If you do not hunger for anything, you will not take the opportunity to satisfy that hunger.
Nothing clinical here, just real life....



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 


Very true.

In a true free market, sex and drugs are perfectly acceptable commodities, as there is a willing buyer and willing seller. Anyone who wants those regulated can't call themselves a "free-market capitalist" with any honesty.


No free market capitalist does! You have only illustrated the exact problem with attempts at regulating the market place. Both sex and drugs are now found on the "black market" and will continue to be found their as long as their prohibition exists. They remain on the market because their is a demand for them, and as long as that demand exists, no amount of legislation will keep that demand from being met.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 06:10 PM
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What has brought down capitalism will bring down every form of economics or government eventually. That great death is brought about by Pride and it lives in Chaos. Capitalism is idealistic, Socialism is idealistic, so anyone who immediately dismisses an idea as idealistic is very ignorant of history.

I tend to believe that we should have capitalism as "default law" without the allowance of perpetual corporations and with minimal regulations combined with more appealing and beneficial helps for non-profit businesses (socialism through freedom), and any non-profit businesses (businesses that provide true services or products) or non-profit charities (religious/social/philosophical groups) must allow all financial records to be posted publicly and without the smallest hindrance to their understanding. Through these balances, the ideals of capitalism (competition and individual choice) remain while socialism that is honest is encouraged and thrives without the ideal of service to all who are in need being forced unfairly.

While this concept seems "idealistic," it is no more idealistic than either idea alone, it is the way things already are (minus corporations and plus increased non-profit business advantages - but not for non-profit religious entities, possibly leave them as they are now), and would work for a long while if established and then left alone instead of being allowed to be manipulated.

Or, maybe we should be all polar about it?

[edit on 1/9/2010 by Dasher]



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 06:12 PM
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Originally posted by Stewie
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux
 

I was speaking to Southern Guardian. Based upon the content of his assertions, I am assuming he is young.
However,
addressing your "absolute" statement about opportunity.
If you do not recognize that you have "opportunities", then you really do not have them. If you do not hunger for anything, you will not take the opportunity to satisfy that hunger.
Nothing clinical here, just real life....


Great point, Stewie and thanks for clearing up who you were speaking to. It is imperative we learn to recognize opportunity if we are to learn how to flourish and prosper. While hunger can be a strong motivation in recognizing opportunity, I would argue further that other factors can motivate such recognition as well. In the end, it comes down to survival. The stronger the will to survive, the more likely one is to recognize opportunity.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 06:13 PM
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Originally posted by Stewie
Young friend,
You should be immensely thankful for the opportunities you have.


Brought up into a world where I have a 9 in 10 chance to make myself something. I have the supposed opportunity to compete against the top 1% of the established elite that have firmly assured their reserved space up there for a lifetime to come. I have to accept the fact that the corporate thugs have more say in this country than I do.

I should be be thankful? The corporations have you good.

This isnt freedom. This is corporate dictatorship, and they have already consumed part of DC. Real true freedom and opportunity would not result in a country where the top 1% dictate as much as the rest of the 99%.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 06:20 PM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Southern Guardian
 


It is not at all true that capitalism "assumes" that we are all equal,


It assumes we all have equal freedom. Its the same thing.


nor is capitalism predicated on the "assumption" that all businesses will succeed.


I'll agree it doesnt. But when you have the top percentage assuring their reserved place as the elite its really hard to argue that businesses have the opportunity at all.


Your assumptions of class warfare are rooted in Marxist ideology


The marxists collapsed unto themselves decades ago. Whats left are the corporate dictators to the exact opposite.


Capitalism does not require a "working class" in order to survive.


Name one capitalist period in history that didnt have a large bottom working class. Back your claim up with history please.

SG



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by Stewie
Young friend,
You should be immensely thankful for the opportunities you have.


Brought up into a world where I have a 9 in 10 chance to make myself something. I have the supposed opportunity to compete against the top 1% of the established elite that have firmly assured their reserved space up there for a lifetime to come. I have to accept the fact that the corporate thugs have more say in this country than I do.

I should be be thankful? The corporations have you good.

This isnt freedom. This is corporate dictatorship, and they have already consumed part of DC. Real true freedom and opportunity would not result in a country where the top 1% dictate as much as the rest of the 99%.


Corporatism is not capitalism and the corporate mentality has revealed time and time again their profound disgust for capitalism and free market principles. In that regard, it can easily be argued that those who run corporations adhere to more of a Marxist ideology than a capitalist one. Indeed, in order for a corporation to survive it needs a working class. Conversely in order for massive competition to survive it needs many small businesses where "labor" is the same as the efforts those who own that business put into it.

It is not clear why you think that the only definition of success means being one who is in the top 1% of the wealth index, but this sort of envy is not doing you any justice.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 06:30 PM
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Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Corporatism is not capitalism


Corporatism is a successor to unregulated capitalism and history has shown us time and time again. As of yet we have been deregulating our markets over the decades and only until just recently did the markets go under regulation again.


and the corporate mentality has revealed time and time again their profound disgust for capitalism and free market principles.


They show their disgust my continously lobbying for more free unrestrained laws on them. They did it with healthcare reform, they did it through taxes, they lobbied through their right to speculate as they want, to lobby freerly through washington. They even lobbied to get their corporations the same rights as humans. It is that mentality.


It is not clear why you think that the only definition of success means being one who is in the top 1% of the wealth index, but this sort of envy is not doing you any justice.


I'd guarantee that if you were to put 100 people on a field full of $1 bills and told them they were free to take as many as they want, you wouldnt find one of them with more that 50% of the share. If that was the case obviously something is wrong here.

[edit on 9-1-2010 by Southern Guardian]



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 06:33 PM
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reply to post by Southern Guardian
 


I have all ready answered your demand that I name one time in history where capitalism didn't need a working class in an earlier post by stating that there never has been a time in history where capitalism has been able to operate under its own tenets.

There is no time in history when there was a free and unregulated market place. Certainly not in the U.S. since from the beginning, and the value of gold was fixed by government edict from that start.

Your complaints are against oligopolism or corporatism and have nothing to do with capitalism except for the bill of goods you were sold by Marx. Furthermore, the "working class" is not bound to indentured servitude and can at any time break free of this "class" and strike out on their own and do business. Even in a highly regulated marketplace there are still street vendors across the nation who ignore the oppressive licensing and prohibition laws and sell their goods in public places anyway. They do so because there is a demand for those goods and people will buy those goods, regardless of the regulation that would seek to hinder it.



posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 06:36 PM
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I never fail to wonder at the cynicism displayed by some people about capitalism. I am not rich, but I am not poor. My parents grew up during the depression and WWII. My father never got past the 6th grade, but due to their hard work, I went to college. They are now retired and have a comfortable retirement. No one gave them anything, they worked hard-scrimped-saved-sacrificed and got ahead.
I got a degree in Commercial Design. Thanks to the advent of the computer, my talents were null and void. So, thanks to capitalism, I reinvented myself. Went to work in retail and management. Got married and had a daughter... then divorce. I was left with a small property with farmhouse and barn. I rented out the house and lived in the barn. I laso got 2 part-time jobs in addition to the fulltime job I had. In between, I converted the barn into a nice cabin. But for a while, I was cold and hungry and things looked bleak.
I went to night school at the community college and took FREE business courses as part of the community developement programs. I learned about real estate and investing.
In 13 years, I went from sleeping in a cold barn with no running water and a light bulb to owning a 50acre farm, land in a neighboring county, and a place at the coast....all because of hardwork and capitalism.
My parents taught me to never underestimate yourself, always do your best, and work hard. Even now I run a sales route, have a small farm and roadside stand, and sell firewood. I remarried and my wonderful wife works hard, too.
My daughter grew up in a broken home, and dealt with bouncing back and froth from an alcoholic mother and a father that worked hard and missed too much time with her. I have since gotten full custody of her and she is now in college with a full scholarship from HARDWORK and STUDYING. She also works fulltime and has a promising future...thanks to CAPITALISM.
May I suggest going to the library and reading about people that have overcome hardtimes and trials and made a success of their lives. Yes, we do need an underclass, but you don't have to stay there. Education, perseverence, hardwork, a spiritual life, commonsense, and just doing what's right will take you far.



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