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Are Labor Unions Outdated and Unneccesary? Are They Doing More Harm Than Good?

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posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:14 AM
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Originally posted by mrlondon
I wish there was a strong union sticking up for people doing the same career as me, unions are strength of the skilled people over their unskilled, moneyed employers and for this we should all solute them.

Unions are the closest to a peoples army that we have.


Unskilled, moneyed employers? What kind of career are you involved with?




posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:16 AM
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I think if anything has been made abundantly clear in this day (economic age) the days of protection for unskilled workers/labor does not exist. For those who may have been covered by unions in jobs that no longer exist, it does not behoove the worker to continue as is. Education, whether academic or trade is essential.



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:17 AM
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Originally posted by Sean48
reply to post by habfan1968
 


if you think the problems of GM are worker related , you are seriously

mis-informed, dig deeper before you post total nonsense.

In these days of high unemployment, without unions, we would all be working

5 dollars a hour.


Misinformed? If you had to go work for $5.00/hour to feed your family would you do it?



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by habfan1968


Misinformed? If you had to go work for $5.00/hour to feed your family would you do it?


5 dollars an hour wouldn't be enough, Id be living in a tent city in

3 months. No thank you.

But the company I would be working for , would see profits soar,

good thing slavery was abolished.



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:23 AM
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Well, im sure labor unions skim money and all, but i feel they are needed. I work for a cvs retail pharmacy, non union. LOts of employees get awaywith steeling, sexual behavior and gestures, threats towards one another, pharmacists engaging in simiialr acts,..if it was a union, those problems would have at least, been dealt with accordingly and apporopiatly* without them, good hard working people get screwed over.



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:23 AM
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Great Thread S&F

Conditions for human labor abuse and trafficking in modern day slavery still exists in America.

dissidentvoice.org...

With out unions, guilds and other worker organizations; how long would it take for companies to treat all workers like illegal aliens to maximaze profit and dividends for their share holders; especially the unskilled?

[edit on 10-1-2010 by whaaa]



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:26 AM
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There are two examples that I can think of that illustrate what you two are talking about...

GM vs Toyota - auto industry example

Walmart vs (any unionized grocer) - retail example

If one looks at the business practices of these, figure union vs non, and employee satisfactions... one would see a pattern emerge that favors the business model that not only strives for excellence/quality/control and market share, but also considers employee satisfaction.

Sometimes unions work, many many times they do not... it is leadership/mgmt that makes or breaks them.



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by Sean48

Originally posted by habfan1968


Misinformed? If you had to go work for $5.00/hour to feed your family would you do it?


5 dollars an hour wouldn't be enough, Id be living in a tent city in

3 months. No thank you.

But the company I would be working for , would see profits soar,

good thing slavery was abolished.



No it would not but it's a start as opposed to not working, it may be the only option presented.

$800 a month does not sound like much but it was alot years ago when times were simpler, would you agree?

How much profit, by percentage would you deem fair for the owner of a business to earn off the back of hard working blue collar types?



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:31 AM
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Originally posted by LadySkadi
There are two examples that I can think of that illustrate what you two are talking about...

GM vs Toyota - auto industry example

Walmart vs (any unionized grocer) - retail example

If one looks at the business practices of these, figure union vs non, and employee satisfactions... one would see a pattern emerge that favors the business model that not only strives for excellence/quality/control and market share, but also considers employee satisfaction.

Sometimes unions work, many many times they do not... it is leadership/mgmt that makes or breaks them.


Most of the time Leadership/Management have moved into their positions after serving the company as a unionized employee, moved up the ranks into management and no longer have the protection and benefits the unionized employees they supervise enjoy.



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by whaaa
Great Thread S&F

Conditions for human labor abuse and trafficking in modern day slavery still exists in America.

dissidentvoice.org...

With out unions, guilds and other worker organizations; how long would it take for companies to treat all workers like illegal aliens to maximaze profit and dividends for their share holders; especially the unskilled?

[edit on 10-1-2010 by whaaa]


In this day and age why is there unskilled workers? Education and programs abound everywhere to help even the poorest of people to train and educate, at no cost to them. Since these conditions exist would it not be logical for any person to leave the employ of these companies?



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:38 AM
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Originally posted by ziggy1706
Well, im sure labor unions skim money and all, but i feel they are needed. I work for a cvs retail pharmacy, non union. LOts of employees get awaywith steeling, sexual behavior and gestures, threats towards one another, pharmacists engaging in simiialr acts,..if it was a union, those problems would have at least, been dealt with accordingly and apporopiatly* without them, good hard working people get screwed over.


All the violations you cite are illegal and any person can go to the local police station and file a complaint or even have someone charged. If you ahve first hand knowledge of any of these things don't you fee an obligation to your fellow workers to do something about it?



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:38 AM
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Originally posted by habfan1968

In this day and age why is there unskilled workers? Education and programs abound everywhere to help even the poorest of people to train and educate, at no cost to them. Since these conditions exist would it not be logical for any person to leave the employ of these companies?


There would be unskilled workers because if you had your way, I would be working for 5 dollars a hour, to NOT live in a "tent city" I would have to have

my 10 year old , and 14 year old sons working as well.

But then , isn't that why we started Unions in the first place ?



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:42 AM
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Originally posted by Sean48

Originally posted by habfan1968

In this day and age why is there unskilled workers? Education and programs abound everywhere to help even the poorest of people to train and educate, at no cost to them. Since these conditions exist would it not be logical for any person to leave the employ of these companies?


There would be unskilled workers because if you had your way, I would be working for 5 dollars a hour, to NOT live in a "tent city" I would have to have

my 10 year old , and 14 year old sons working as well.

But then , isn't that why we started Unions in the first place ?


Sorry Sean but we may have a disconnect here. I don't want anyone to work for $5.00 an hour or live in a tent city. I did ask you directly two very specific questions, please, indulge me in answering them.

The govt. has a federally mandated minimum age of employment in all regions in Canada and the US so you kids won't have to work don't worry. I would like for you to be able to work and provide for your family, after all that is why you work right?



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:49 AM
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To be fair, I know very few, if any, that could live off of minimum wage. Maybe one person, certainly not a family. Factor into that, many businesses will schedule workers below the 40 hour minimum for benefits and you have a working class living in poverty.

State minimum wages

Unions do provide a buffer of protection for many, no doubt.

The problem is when the Unions and Mgmt. lock into an agreement that is very bad for business and for which the economy cannot support (GM again, as an example) and over the long run, bankrupts. Many policy issues could be avoided with more foresight on the business plan.






[edit on 10-1-2010 by LadySkadi]



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:55 AM
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reply to post by LadySkadi
 


Talking about minimum wage.

If you think about it, government does a lot of what union use to fight for.

The gov ensures good working conditions
Hold employers liable for infractions
Set minimum wage
protects pensions, etc.

So I guess one does need to think in what other ways can Unions further protect the rights of workers that government isn't already doing?



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 12:58 AM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by LadySkadi
I would definitely agree that the union M.O. seems to be quite outdated, given the current economic base (service rather than manufacturing) and one need only review the operations of GM and Chrysler (Ford seems to be doing ok) and compare them to Toyota, who has not lost, but made profit for the past several years in row.


I was a chief steward for an employer consistently cited as one of the best employers in the city of Toronto...indeed in Canada...but I was a very busy lad, dealing with violations of the collective agreement, to actual human rights violations, up to breaking of the labour laws. This tells me that unions remain relevant...as without representation, employees would be fighting very lonely (and expensive) battles. It went the other way, too...where HR would come to me to assess management who were abusing their staff.

A collective agreement is a set of rules agreed to by both parties.

And to bring Jimmy Hoffa into the debate is nonsense. May as well talk about Pinkerton's machine-gunning railroad workers...I think we've all moved on since then.


JohnnyCanuck, to be fair to LadySkadi, I brought up Jimmy Hoffa, not her.

And I'm sorry but Hoffa is very relevant to this particular thread, not only because this is a conspiracy theory and his body never being found being one of the most controversial "conspiracy theories" of all time, but because his name is synonymous with unions, corruption, and economics.

He is one of the most controversial members of the "Union" conspiracy, and whether we need them or not because of the context of everything he did up until his disappearance.

Historically speaking, Jimmy Hoffa, is one of the best and worst examples of everything that "unions" embody, because of the criminalization of them.

[edit on 10-1-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 01:00 AM
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reply to post by jam321
 

And that was one issue I was hoping that those who are or were Union members could bring to the discussion. I've never worked for a Union, my father has (retired now) and that had to do with city employment (firefighting). I am not clear how (if at all) city/state employee unions would differ from private sector, though I am certain that they probably do.



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 01:08 AM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 

Hoffa is relevant to Union conspiracy, there is no doubt.

Union Conspiracy is still live and well and continues today, though some may call it "dirty business" it is nonetheless, still a conspiracy. An interesting read on Union conspiracy to target Walmart and its workers...

Union Conpiracy Against Walmart Workers


While the media may portray unions as collections of Mother Teresas, concerned only with the plight of poor Indonesians, the reality is that the real objectives of the unions is to throw every last Indonesian who is employed by Nike out of work, forcing many of them to resort to begging, stealing, prostitution, or worse. That way, competition for higher-priced/lower quality textile goods produced in unionized factories in America will be reduced or eliminated. And the unions pretend to take the moral high ground in this patently immoral crusade.

America's universities are filled with economically ignorant haters of the free market, so university campuses have become major forums for union denunciations of such companies as Nike, Wal-Mart, and others. Faculty and students claim to be concerned about "social justice," but they are simply being used as dupes by unions who are not at all concerned with justice of any sort. Rather, their main concern is increasing the coffers of union treasuries by driving non-union competitors from the market.




[edit on 10-1-2010 by LadySkadi]



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 01:21 AM
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reply to post by LadySkadi
 


Found this to be interesting. Hope more members jump in and provide some more info on the two


A major difference between private and public entities is that the private firms have to earn their money through voluntary transactions. For all their rhetoric, private employee union leaders usually understand that it's best that the companies they negotiate with be competitive enough to stay in business and thrive -- and businesses can do that only if they provide a desirable good or service at a price the customers are willing to voluntarily pay.

On the other hand, public employee unions rely on the coercive power of government to tax anyone and anything within their jurisdiction...

Does this make the government union members "bad guys?" No, they are simply acting in their own, and their members', self-interest. But they are playing a zero sum game, thanks to the involuntary nature of taxation. Every dollar that goes to a government worker has to be taken from someone else by the threat of force


www.anchorrising.com...



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 10:33 AM
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Originally posted by habfan1968

Originally posted by Sean48


With Unions you also get proper protection of Safety Codes.

There are many "blue collar" jobs that have the potential to cause harm

to workers, if the safety of the worker is negated because of the cost.

The union also insure these safety codes are followed.


The govt. has that covered and abuses are illegal, at least in Ontario.


Been up on a scaffold fixing apartment balconies of late?

Having a law, and ensuring compliance are two different things. One person complains...and the job mysteriously ends. But when a grievance is filed, it is the collective that stands behind the complaint.

And again, as a chief steward I can say that laws are broken...out of arrogance or ignorance...on a regular basis even in a unionised environment. You telling me it's better outside? I think not!





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