It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Afghanistan: The War for Girls

page: 3
15
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 07:10 PM
link   
reply to post by Bunker or Bust
 


We made a mistake.

We should correct that mistake.

This is how mistakes should be dealt with.




posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 07:19 PM
link   
reply to post by poet1b
 


Well that's all well and good if you are willing to kill every man, woman and child. Because a child without a parent will hold a grudge and the cycle continues.

Answer me this question, would you condone the same action if they have nuke capability and could touch your family?

Once you have taken this bad guys out who is next? The whole planet would view you as the aggressor and take you out regardless of moral high ground. By your action of extermination of an entire different viewpoint you would make alot of people "concerned". That is why taking out the bad guy has a bigger impact on you and your culture, nation, viewpoint than one would think based on first thought driven by emotion.

I think some on the Hitler side of the fence thought they were dealing with the bad guy. Didn't turn out too well for them did it? It is perspective, the person pulling a trigger always thinks they are right.

I agree some nasty nasty stuff in some of these places and I agree with you in principle but violence just leads to more violence. It always has and always will, you are entitled to your view and me also but we have gone round on this ride long enough. Open a history book, littered with it so maybe try a different approach?

Edit: And you don't have the right to take out the bad guys, the Taliban think you are the bad guy from their view point and that they are doing the right thing. Your stance condones their anti american hatred, can you see how it circles? What is horrific to us is / was normal to them, they don't sit down and watch Oprah you know. The French revoltion was conducted by French people..

[edit on 11-1-2010 by Bunker or Bust]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 07:29 PM
link   
reply to post by Bunker or Bust
 


But the Afghani people do not have the means to resist The Taliban....the gulf between them is far greater than it was during The French Revolution....apples and pears my friend....and that is why they want and need us there to prevent The Taliban.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 07:29 PM
link   
reply to post by Bunker or Bust
 


Ooops....double post, sorry.

[edit on 11/1/10 by Freeborn]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 07:33 PM
link   
reply to post by Freeborn
 


So it takes time for that gap to close, I don't remember hearing the Afghan people asking for help at the UN or at any other forum. US forces went in to get Osama and Al Q, not to help the Afghan people. Lets not forget that little factoid in this discussion.

The only way it ends is if they end it.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 07:46 PM
link   
reply to post by Bunker or Bust
 


I don't dispute that we were all sold lies about Iraq and Afghanistan, that is undeniable and in a perfect world I would like to see those responsible for those lies in a court of law.

And yes, in an ideal world The Afghani people would be able to resist and defeat The Taliban.
But we live in the real world, here and now, and the simple fact is they can't without our help.

No amount idyllic, wishful thinking will alter the facts that I posted in my first post in this thread.

[edit on 11/1/10 by Freeborn]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 07:51 PM
link   
reply to post by Bunker or Bust
 


Come on BoB, you have more sense than that. I am not talking about killing everyone. If the child grows up and chooses to follow in the father's footsteps, then the cycle begins again, but that doesn't really make any difference.

They are already our enemy, and they were long before 9-11, you should know this. Letting our enemy continue to live not only increases the odds that his child will grow up to pursue the conflict in his father's footsteps, but also the odds that the father will have even more children to continue the conflict.

If they had nuke capability, I think we would need to increase our efforts even more. It may very well be that Iran soon develops a nuke, and then we will probably be testing this scenario.

Since you brought it up, I have to ask if you realize that if Iran succeeds in developing a nuke, the chances of the possibility of Nuclear war will increase by considerable magnitude.

In fact, it might not be too far off the mark to say that if Iran develops a nuke, a nuclear war will almost be a certainty.

Honestly, I see the Islamic extremists as the new NAZIs, they may even be worse.

For the nations of Islam, the only reason we haven't done to them what we did to Germany, is because we haven't yet seen them as that great of a threat. However, if Iran develops a nuke, or even as Iran gets closer to developing a nuke, this perspective will change drastically, and so will the situation.

It is sad to think about the events that have lead us to this abyss we now approach.

What is clear is that Islamic extremists have no intention of backing down.

There is no guilt in defending oneself and what is right, and those who keep trying to play the the guilt trip are not doing this world any favor.

I think you are capable of recognizing this.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 08:02 PM
link   
reply to post by Freeborn
 


Yes if you want it to happen now I agree they need help. But what about Tibet? Are they not in the same boat? I don't see the USMC engaging the Chinese to free the Tibetian people. Hypocritical is what it is, justification based on a moral compass. We all know it is terrible and wrong but we just go after the easy ones then? Sorry but I think it is down to the people of each country to sort their own domestic problems and if it takes time then so be it, you can support them in many many ways without having troops on the group.

Can you see how it is driven by politics and not morals? So when people scream at me that it's so shocking and terrible and we must do something now I step back a bit. Because the fact that some much goes on in the world which is wrong and you jump on the government bandwagon for just this "specific" wrong which fits their agenda based on politics or money I go a little cold. There is plenty in the world to sort out but not all places need an oil pipeline so lets try and not be blinded by that fact. Tibet will not be next, be under no illusion.

Saudi Arabia chops peoples heads off and has big Islamic extremist problems but the US is happy to sell them F16's. So when that is corrected and the lines are really drawn based on moral grounds then you might convert me but until then its all about money and smoke and mirrors make it happen. Some see it and some don't I am not being critical I am just saying I don't agree.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 08:10 PM
link   
reply to post by poet1b
 


If that really is the case then please push the big red button and wipe out the planet now please, I got bills I would rather not pay.

If we cannot see beyond the simple fact we are all human and living on the same rock and have something to offer each other then the game is over. We need to make that brave step together but someone has to start and it is harder than landing on Mars but if we don't I promise tomorrow or in the future we are all screwed. Putting a bullet in someones head is easy making a life long friend is harder, guess you vote for the easy road.

Bring on armagedon we all lose.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 08:21 PM
link   
reply to post by Bunker or Bust
 


If you live in the states, you won't have to worry about being blown up by a nuke, unless one gets sneaked into the city where you live. Maybe the radiation might be enough to reach us. Iran is not likely to have intercontinental missile capability any time soon. It will be the people of Iran who get wiped out. That is the horrible thing, possibly Israel, and who knows what ever targets in the Middle East.

Honestly, there is nothing funny about this situation.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 08:28 PM
link   
reply to post by Bunker or Bust
 


Yeah, well, it would be nice if all that hippy peace love stuff worked, but it doesn't.

In the real world, you either fight to maintain your freedom, or you become a slave.

Also, there is an old saying, learn to pick your battles. This logic is why we aren't in Tibet. Notice China isn't about to cross that strip of water that separates Taiwan from the Mainland, although they desperately want to.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 10:06 PM
link   

Originally posted by poet1b
Are you really that pessimistic? You don't think it is possible to make the world a better place? The history of mankind proves you wrong, but you would have to study that history to recognize this.


No, and as a lifelong student of history, law, and mass movements I'd tend to say I am realistic and pragmatic while you tend to toss away pearls of wisdom akin to those you might find littering the ground of America's college freshmen dorms.

Nice and shiny with no real world application.


An idea is a genie in a bottle, and it has the ability to change the world.


Case in point.


While most of the world has always been ran by warlords throughout history, ever larger parts are being liberated from warlords, and there is no reason to stop this process.


Terribly specific there. You leave out location, regional history, era, the how's and why's of change, to name a few.


My viewpoint is quite different than you think. I used to think like you, but I escaped the trap that still holds you.


Vague ill-formed thoughts seem to be your forte.


I never claimed that the the world will be changed by government force or war alone. The less force used is the best answer, but do you really think the worlds warlords are going to give up their power voluntarily?


No, you have to rip the guns from their hands and cut their throats. Does that mean we have to do it for people who seem to have little will to do it themselves?


Yes, I have a plan, wake people up the reality that there is nothing wrong with first world nations taking out third world strongmen. It is time to end the whole colonial guilt thing, because it is a bunch of nonsense.


That's a pretty detailed plan considering you have little to no support for it, rationally, historically, morally, or legally.

They do not pay our bills as we should not pay theirs.


Yes, the warlords of the world do take away my rights, re-read my previous post on the subject, as I explain it clearly there.


Your definition of "clear" must be different than mine. Try again, because thus far you have failed.


You don't get it, I do not support immigration. As long as people in the third world can escape to the first world, they will never put out the effort to liberate their nations from their oppressors.


I do get it, but as long as you can't support it or explain it, you have no point.


What is worse is that the third world immigrants come to the first world and insist on clinging to the cultural beliefs that are the very reasons the nations they come from are third world nations.


Some do, and we tell them tough luck. That's a pretty simple thing. America is not Europe, not by a long shot.


The U.S. government was created to establish the rights of man, and there certainly never was a goal to limit these rights only to the United States, as you want to claim.


No, there was no "goal" to limit human rights to America, but you fail to see that the US government was create to PROTECT (not establish or provide) our rights and our rights only. We have not the time, resources, money, will, need, cause, or moral obligation to protect anyone's rights but our own because we PAY for that protection. We monitor that protection and we will fight for our own.

Can those other countries say the same about their people and their governments?

That is the problem, not the US.

"The UN is a joke, the World Trade Organization has far more power than the UN will ever possess. "

Agreed. What would the US government become if we forced our nose into people's business more than we already do? Do you really think we'd get positive results?

That's foolishness pure and simple.


We have far more power to change this world for the better than you realize, but the intellectual trap you, and so many others, have fallen into is doing a great job of keeping us from making those changes.

Wake up, the whole peace love hippy thing doesn't work.

Sometimes you have to be tough and stand up for yourself.

It is time to drop the political correctness garbage, and start calling out things for what they are.


Fine, I'll call your ideas what they are. Unformed nonsense. You propose no concrete ideas, you countermand the intentions of our entire nation, ignore history, seek to use American money for non-American use, and generally talk in circles.

Anyone who knows me around here will tell you I'm no hippy and I can tell you that other nations abusing non-Americans has NOTHING to do with standing up for Americans.


If we kill everyone of these buggers who think it is alright to kill people because they disagree with their religious beliefs, we have nothing to apologize for. In fact we should be praised for wiping such scum off the face of the planet.

You don't ignore what the guys in the next community are doing if they are killing everyone who disagrees with them, because pretty soon they will be coming into your community if they get the chance, whether by hook or by crook.

You hunt them down until everyone of them are dead, or in prison.


We don't have enough room in America to house all the prisoners you suggest.

We don't have enough money to wage permanent global war.

We don't have the political capital to flout the sovereignty of most nations on Earth.

We do not have enough people to man the war effort.

We do not have any obligation to protect anyone other than ourselves.

I've waited for you to bring any kind of argument. Any at all, but there is nothing there.

How, specifically, would you implement this. Even taking on Africa would crush us, so I'm all ears.

[edit on 11-1-2010 by KrazyJethro]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 10:16 PM
link   
reply to post by Bunker or Bust
 


The failure of the US or anyone else to get involved in Tibet, Saudi etc will not result in terrorist supporting Islamic fundamentalists gaining control of a country's nuclear arsenal.

The US can not put the whole of the world's ill's to right.
But it can help right some of it's wrong's.
And it deserves some recognition and respect when it tries to.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 10:33 PM
link   
Women aren't people. They are a cultural commodity.

Wars for things are fought on land or sea or air.

Wars about culture are fought on the bodies of women.


Those who control the fertile women control the culture. In our cultures, women control themselves and make decisions about most things pertaining to such matters with their spouse-like counterpart.

In other cultures, the culture owns the women. And by limiting the options and controls the women have they by extension control ever aspect of the males' lives they are attached to. Woman can't work - that effects their families men. Woman can't walk around? That effects how far their men can go. Ever single limitation on the fertile women reverberates on every member of the family she is in.

Control the fertile women, control the culture.

Therefore, these cultures movers and shakers want to control every woman absolutely because it hands them the lives of everyone.

The reverse doesn't apply. That's why the witch burnings happened in Europe. Women were becoming independent without men because the men where dying off and the women were not. Losing control of the society of women was creating a dynamic and fast relief of the dark ages. And the control that it brought to a select few. So they found a way to bring down the population of women - particularly educated or independent women.


About populations overturning their oppressors -

We do not live in the 1600s, when an oppressor government or organization had religion and bureaucracy and a military with rifles. When the oppressed had swords, pitchforks and some rifles, and their oppressors had training and rifles and cannons.

Now we have an oppressed that often live in stone single room houses, and their oppressors have nuclear weapons that they can launch from a thousand kilometers away. And that's the little guys.

The World is not what it was 400 years ago. It is not even what it was 60 years ago. The World and the strategies needed to bring intelligent governance has utterly and fundamentally changed.

That change comes directly out of the fact that we do not live lives of barren uneducated meager existence scraping. We directly are the reason why, and it hasn't a God Damn thing to do with "false flags" or some other bad-empire-conspiracy dialogue.

And because of it, we do indeed have responsibilities to every single one of those people.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 10:36 PM
link   

Originally posted by Freeborn
The US can not put the whole of the world's ill's to right.
But it can help right some of it's wrong's.
And it deserves some recognition and respect when it tries to.


No, we deserve no respect or recognition when we "try" to in this manner. The key word, however, is "try".

It is not our job and they are pissing away our money and soldiers to do something historically stupid poorly.



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 01:30 AM
link   
reply to post by KrazyJethro
 


Um, you are not much of a student of history, law, or mass movements if you claim that the world has not gotten to be a much better place over the centuries.

Are you so foolish as to believe that our possibilities, our liberties, and our capabilities are far greater than they were a hundred years ago, or a thousand years ago?

Regional specifics? Do I really have to go through the history of Western Europe for you? You don't know about the dark ages, the Renaissance? I really don't have the time to go through the advancement of democratic states and their emergence in world power.

I can see how my pointing out that you are trapped in an intellectual circle of confusion in is vague and ill informed to you, you are too busy chasing your own tail to see outside of the trap which holds you.

I am sorry that you are unable to see that on this small planet the destiny of us all is tied together.

I am tired, but I will try to put the pieces of the puzzle together for you.

The founding fathers of the U.S saw the rights of man as being universal. They were smart enough to know that these concepts could not be universally applied to all during their time, but they wrote the language broad enough so that it may be applied to all.

We have no choice but to work towards the advancement of all of humanity. We are all now part of the same planet wide community. Isolation of the first world nations from the third world nations is not possible.

Money is not a factor, it is a modern concept for the exchange of goods and services, nothing more, nothing less.

You clearly have no understanding of the vast amount of resources available to us. Once again, return to the concept of the power of ideas, and let us not forget labor.

You forget the one major factor, and that is time. We don't have to solve all of these problems now.

What is important is that we work at these problems as best as we can, with what is currently available. Right now we have the ability to work on these problems when we concentrate on what can be done in present time.

It has nothing to do with obligations, it has everything to do with the reality that the failure of the human race applies to us all.

I am honored that you seem to think I can come up with a plan to solve all the problems of humanity in short responses on this forum, but that is not realistic.

THIS IS THE KEY[/B]

The one thing that we can do right now is refuse to accept that barbaric practices are acceptable under the pretext of culture.

We have the ability to say that killing girls for choosing to pursue an education is unacceptable. We have the ability to say that we will fight for the right of all children to seek an education, and to call on everyone with the sense to recognize this this right to stand up and fight against the barbarians who think they have the right to kill girls and their family for daring to seek an education for their daughters.

While our ability to achieve this in some finite time frame as you seem to propose we must, is highly unlikely, in the long run, our will combined with continuous effort to do what is right puts the odds of our success greatly in our favor.

As I have already stated, and as any student of history should know, history demonstrates that we can succeed in making the world a better place. All that is required is for us to not give up on making the world a better place.

It is a big thing to seek to achieve, but what the heck else do we have to do with our time?

I don't know about you, but the pursuit of material possessions, or drugs sex and rock-n-roll doesn't do it for me.

What else do we have to loose?



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 01:50 AM
link   
reply to post by Aeons
 


What ever reason wars are fought for, they are won by technological superiority

The cultural beliefs of our enemies make them technologically backwards.

We succeeded in taking over Africa over a hundred years ago, and gave back control of the continent over humanitarian concerns.

The only thing that prevents us from sweeping over the entire third world and destroying everyone that opposes us is our sense of humanity.

The resources we would win would more than make up for the cost.

Heck, what technology the third world nations possess, we provide them.

The first world nations currently are only limited by our ability to consume what we are capable of producing.

In a twenty or thirty year plan, conquest of the third would wouldn't even begin to tax our abilities.

This is the hard reality of the situation.


KrazyJethro

This fact or reality is more for you.

Edit to remove "Don't be such an idealistic fool" comment, my apologies Aeons, that is what I get for posting half asleep. I think you wrote a very excellent post after reading it in the morning.


[edit on 12-1-2010 by poet1b]



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 07:27 AM
link   
reply to post by KrazyJethro
 


But by doing it the US has helped the world stay relatively peaceful for a number of years.
You may not think that but no major conflict between the worlds leading powers has occurred since 1945.
And whether you are willing to acknowledge it or not is irrelevant, but some of that is down to the US's role.

I do not think the US is perfect; streotypical Americans annoys me intensely with their insular outlook and condescending demeanour.

But it is a young country still finding it's feet and the world is a much better place because of it doing what it does.



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 08:14 AM
link   

Originally posted by poet1b
This is the hard reality of the situation.

Don't be such an idealistic fool.

KrazyJethro

This fact or reality is more for you.



If you think I am the idealistic one, then perhaps you need to learn the definition a little better. I have no further need to have circular conversation with you. Feel free to come back when you have something to say.

Enjoy.



posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 08:20 AM
link   

Originally posted by Freeborn
But by doing it the US has helped the world stay relatively peaceful for a number of years.


It is not terribly specific. If you mean invading countries then I'd tend to disagree. If you mean a combination of bribery, financial strongarming mixed with military strikes, and political subterfuge, then yes, we have. Relative peace isn't always worth the price, and I don't really think we've done most any favors since WW2.


You may not think that but no major conflict between the worlds leading powers has occurred since 1945.
And whether you are willing to acknowledge it or not is irrelevant, but some of that is down to the US's role.


No, there have not been.


I do not think the US is perfect; stereotypical Americans annoys me intensely with their insular outlook and condescending demeanor.

But it is a young country still finding it's feet and the world is a much better place because of it doing what it does.


Agreed to the first part. As to the second, I think 200+ years is plenty long enough to find our feet. The world is better for America, true, but it's a mixed bag for the rest of the world.



new topics

top topics



 
15
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join