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Is Zeitgiest really accurate, or part of NWO's plot?

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posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by Alasian
 


My new thread is up, now to see if people will open their eyes to how Iraq is going.




posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 03:40 PM
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reply to post by Stop-loss!
 


Could you send the link to that, friend ?



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 03:43 PM
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reply to post by Ismail
 


Um I dont know how to do that. just click on my screen name and look for the first thread in the top 3, you cant miss it.



posted on Jan, 10 2010 @ 03:55 PM
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Good idea ! Sorry my brain is down tonight.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 03:11 AM
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reply to post by Alasian
 



ZM is not a political group in the common sense.
It has a political ideology, whether it is common or not is irrelevant. It is politics.

Yes, it proposes cultural and sociological changes, but it is not active in politics as we know it.
Yes it is. It has released its political view on the current climate, it also presents its own alternative system and ideology. It is currently attracting and recruiting members to support its view on the current situation and that accept the alternative ideology and vision it presents. It is a movement. Whether you think this is political or not doe not change the fact that it is inherently political. ZGM even explains itself as the Activist arm of the Venus Project. Do you know what being an activist means?
Do you know what Utopian Socialism or Scientific Socialism are, You should because if you are in the ZGM then your are an activist for a group with those ideologies?

The utopian socialist thinkers did not use the term utopian to refer to their ideas. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels referred to all socialist ideas that were simply a vision and distant goal for society as utopian. Utopian socialists were likened to engineers who drew up elaborate designs and concepts for creating a rational and more equal society, and were contrasted with scientific socialists, who were defined as an integrated conception of the goal, the means to producing it, and the way that those means will inevitably be produced through examining social and economic phenomena. This distinction was made clear in Engels' work Socialism: Utopian and Scientific. Utopian socialists were seen as wanting to expand the principles of the French revolution in order to create a more rational society and economic system, and despite being labeled as utopian by later socialists, their aims were not always utopian with their values often included rigid support for the scientific method and creating a society based upon such.
en.wikipedia.org...
Now lets look at VENUS.

As you will see, The Venus Project is dedicated to confronting all of these problems by actively engaging in the research, development, and application of workable solutions. Through the use of innovative approaches to social awareness, educational incentives, and the consistent application of the best that science and technology can offer directly to the social system, The Venus Project offers a comprehensive plan for social reclamation in which human beings, technology, and nature will be able to coexist in a long-term, sustainable state of dynamic equilibrium.
www.thevenusproject.com...

Sound familiar?
www.thevenusproject.com...
I love this site. I truly do, and who wouldn't. The visuals are stunning, the architecture is amazing and the ideas when juxtaposed against the world today only make it harder not to want the Venus project to be a reality now. That is why it is a utopians dream. It relies on that very juxtaposition in order for one to become active in the pursuit of the dream. Zeitgeist the Movie feeds this juxtaposition by attacking the society we live in today and them presenting the carrot of the VENUS project to its audience.
By all means my friend, I harbor no ill will towards the pursuit of this project or the movement.
I am just calling a spade a spade. Unfortunately those that have accepted the BRAND NAME of ZGM and VENUS seem unfamiliar or even ignorant of the religious and political nature found in the Movie and the VENUS project, simply because Zeitgeist Movement and VENUS tell you that! And so it is regurgitated by those that follow the party line.


There is no affiiation with any political parties, the movement does not take any political sides, and we are simply not interested in the current system anyway.
You are interested in the current system, you are interested in all that is wrong with it, it is this interest that motivates a desire to change. This does not mean it is not political, it just means your view is not typical of the dominant political ideologies. You can brand yourself anyway you want, but Venus and ZGM are political to the core.

5 a : the total complex of relations between people living in society b : relations or conduct in a particular area of experience especially as seen or dealt with from a political point of view
www.merriam-webster.com...
ZGM and VENUS have a specific and particular point of view relating to the total complexity of human relations, not just for a particular group of people or society, but for the entire globe.
That would make it a global agenda. A new order for the world. That is exactly what the VENUS project want.
Any arguments?

The Venus Project presents a bold, new direction for humanity that entails nothing less than the total redesign of our culture.
www.thevenusproject.com...

Who's culture exactly? Venus seems to ignore the wide variety of cultures in its design application!
Lets Homogenize the world shall we!



Also, whatever you are saying about Zeitgeist being a religious group, is just laughable.
Please explain to me the how the use of theosophical religious beliefs in Part 1 of Zeitgeist are not religious in nature? How does Zeitgeist differentiate itself from the views it presents in part 1.

I can challenge any other religious or political system as much as I want to. If these systems are good and pure they shouldn't be afraid of our challenges, and you shouldn't be afraid either.
Of course you can challenge religion, I never said you couldn't. Just don't B.S. people that your challenge is not, in and of itself, religious in nature. Because that is exactly what Zeitgeist is, and does. It presents its own religious views.

I am not afraid. Obviously I am challenging a religious belief myself, that one portrayed in the Zeitgeist Movie.
I am simply pointing out the reality which you choose to ignore. Peter Joseph uses a particular religious philosophy in part 1. I would assume that any one astute enough to watch a video documentary that challenges ones perception or paradigm would research the very claims, and sources, that it makes in order to verify or understand them entirely and completely so as to make informed decisions relating to such matter. I did exactly that.
It seems you have not, and instead have just followed the leader.

It is, in fact, I that is challenging religion. Lets be clear on that. I am challenging the religious material used in Zeitgeist Part 1. You seem to ignore this, as does another poster.
Why is that?
Why can you not explain Zeitgeist reliance on a religious philosophy in part 1? That these philosophies are incorrect and fraudulent in their assertions, claims, their sources and research?
If Zeitgeist needs to LIE, in order to make its argument, what else is it lying about?


Seriously, what's wrong with challenging religion?
Nothing. In fact that is what I am doing, challenging the religious view endorsed and presented in Zeitgeist. I never said that there was anything wrong with challenging religion. If you can point out where I said that I will apologize and retract the statement.


What I have been saying, and what you seem to ignore, is that Zeitgeist presents an attack on religion, WITH RELIGION. It is religious in nature.


The Philosophy of Zeitgeist is thus, religious in nature. Its view is religious in nature. Those that believe Part 1 in Zeitgeist, and join the movements are also accepting those religious and philosophical views, regardless of their ignorance pertaining to the origins or sources of that philosophy and religion.


What part of that do you not understand?


Peter Joseph use THEOSOPHY, the RELIGION of THEOSOPHY, the THEOSOPHICAL RELIGIOUS BELIEFS to present his argument. These are flawed. There are shown to be flawed, fraudulent and religious in nature.
NOW tell me again-how does this make Zeitgeist non religious in nature?
If Zeitgeist needs to LIE using a RELIGION whilst claiming in part 1 that religion is a LIE, how is it any different?

Please look at my last post again. There are clear links to the religious group and philosophy that the entire first section of Zeitgeist relies upon.

Now if you would please answer my questions, from this post and my last, instead of spewing Zeitgeist and VENUS project religious and political propaganda, I would appreciate it.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 04:21 AM
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reply to post by atlasastro
 


Look, I know what activism is. I've been an activist acting individually here in my country for many years, since my teens. That's not the point though, activism doesn't mean you follow mainstream politics of any sorts.

Also, I didn't say that ZGM is not political, I just said it is not involved in politics in the average way the layman would consider "politics" to be.

To be frank, the word "politics" comes from the greek word "politeia" ΠΟΛΙΤΕΙΑ, which means "city-state". Someone who is involved with serving his or her state, is considered to be a citizen, πολίτης -politis- in Greek.

The Zeitgeist movement is a politics movement in the sense that it is involve with creating a new kind of community (i.e. the Venus project).
I don't see anything bad with that buddy.

Also, please, don't consider America or ANY country in the world to be a democracy. Democracy was only achieved once in the past, by the ancient Greeks, and that lasted ONLY for a few years. Even though it didn't last long, I blame immaturity of the times, not that now we are more mature, but at least the Venus project, and Zeitgeist movement are trying to BRING ABOUT that level of maturity, so the world can pass on to a TRUE democratic state. If you don't like this, maybe you feel better accustomed to the fascist dictatorships that rule the world today. America proclaims itself "the biggest democracy in the world" but America has never been democratic, it has never been a republic either. It was not designed to be one, and that is why America and the whole world need this change that Zeitgeist is PROPOSING. Remember this always!!! We are just PROPOSING this form of change, not trying to impose it on anyone.

So all I have to say to anyone who still thinks that Zeitgeist is part of the NWO, is that yeah!!! We agree man, we ARE the New World Order!!! We PROPOSE to bring a NEW WORLD ORDER that will change this shameful existence which exists now! We want to create a community where people are not slaves to money, we want to live without the governments controlling us.

If you agree with us, feel free to come join and help us bring about this New World Order. And just to leave confusions out of this, lets make it New and Better World Order, for all the people, all life forms to live harmoniously in coexistance with each other. It is the only way.

On the other hand, if you do not agree with Zeitgeist, nobody is forcing you to join or anything. You don't even have to speak of the Zeitgeist movement anymore if you don't like it. I assure you, we don't have any secret plans to take over the world hahaha, we have OPEN plans to take over the world. Our plans are to take over the world as humanity united, and not as money united!

atlasastro, please feel free to oppose the ZGM at all times, I for one am happy to answer your questions about the movement's ideology and I think any ZG members in ATS will be happy as well.

"Now if you would please answer my questions, from this post and my last, instead of spewing Zeitgeist and VENUS project religious and political propaganda, I would appreciate it."

-As I said, I am happy to answer any questions, but when asked in this manner I will refuse to. I don't "spew" anything, I am a thinking human being, and any other assumption apart from that is an insult not only towards me but firstly upon yourself. Have a nice one.


[edit on 11/1/2010 by Alasian]



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 04:34 AM
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Originally posted by Stop-loss!
Hello ATS. I had been hearing how good the video Zeitgiest was for quite some time. Before I joined this site, I was told by a friend to watch Zeitgiest so I can open my eyes, but I didnt understand at the time what he meant by it until I watched the whole thing. It wasn't until I saw the whole video that I started to get suspicious of what the government was really up to and how we are slaves in the system. I was wide awake and mad at what the army was really using me for and thats when I decided to get out until getting stop-lossed
. Recently I have heard rumors that Zeitgiest was the work of the NWO and that some if not all of the related topics in the movie was nothing more then a fabrication just to support the Venus project. So ATS, this is the question at hand. What parts in all the Zeitgiest movies were actually real and very accurate, and if they are real then how did it help you in your struggles in life. I welcome any input that you guys might have.


[edit on 9-1-2010 by Stop-loss!]



It's neither.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 05:25 AM
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Originally posted by Ismail
reply to post by atlasastro
 


A very large post there. This isn't going to go anywhere. You think the ZGM is somehow part of the NWO, and somehow, a new age religion.
This is going somewhere, just not in the direction you want it too. Did I say it was part of the NWO? I said it is New Age religious Propaganda. I clearly point out why, I clearly support my statements. If you would like to address these, I would appreciate it.


Both these ideas are so contradictory with the message of the ZGM, that they make me laugh.
They are contradictory. ZGM contradicts itself a lot. I have noticed that too, and yes, I too found myself laughing at this.


You appear to be smart and educated.
Thank you. I have educated myself in relation to ZGM. I now believe I have an informed view of ZGM and the Venus project. I support my views and explain why I feel the way I do.

At this stage it's just a matter of choice. You prefer to see the world out of a parnoid bubble.
I would say the paranoid bubble is the Zeitgeist View of the world. Look at the Movie again. It presents to you a thesis that you are being lied to, controlled and manipulated. It inspires fear and paranoia and then offers you a way out of that bubble via a utopian idealists dream, the VENUS project.


I am probably too naive.
Then why rest on this! Become informed, research and educate yourself, look at all the views relating to anyone subject or topic. This is exactly what the OP asks. Is Zeitgeist accurate- No it is not. I point that out.


When (if) the movement asks me for cash to remain a member, to bow to a leader, or worship a god, I'll quit.
Fair enough.


Until then, I'm in. And no amount of youtube video material (waste of time and paranoid delusional, they were) is going to make me change my mind.
That is really funny because that is what Zeitgeist is, a youtube video filled with delusions. LOOK at the video.
Part 1- "The Greatest Story ever Told"-a religious lie constructed from theosophy that tells you that you are being lied to by religion and by religion Zeitgeist means christianity. To exercise social and economic control. Fear and paranoia?
Part 2- “All the World’s a Stage"-9/11 a conspiracy by the government, you are lied to again, to be controlled by fear. Paranoia and fear, invoking a severe distrust of the current political paradigm.
Part 3- a shodowy elite that controls it all so as to keep you under control and to manipulate you. The creepy men behind he current that are controlling your life. Fear and paranoia- feelings of hopelessness, powerlessness and apathy.

Ripe for the picking.
Enter- Zeitgeist Addendum and the VENUS project.
A utopia where life is great, there is no religion to lie and control you.
There is no government to make you afraid.
There are no shadowy creepy guys with all the money because money does not exists.

Now, let me ask you a question.
Who actually bought into the paranoid video full of delusions?
Me or you?
Did you research the Video?
I did!
Did you find some disturbing aspects, lies, manipulated truths, assumptions, inserted or implied explanations. It does not follow through on accusations? It paints the bankers clearly in the late 30's but does not clearly define them now for example! It fused obvious truths, with plausible or believable claims and then applies its own explanation for events liberally as the truth, all the while they are based in conspiracy conjecture.
I did!
That is why I didn't join any movement?
Did you?



We probably both want change.
Yes, a realistic one. One that is achievable. Heard of Acrosanti? www.arcosanti.org...
This started in the 70's. It is a fine study of how far the Venus project has o go.


I assume you are a conservative, and want your country to go back to the good old days.
Perhaps you should give up assuming things. As you are not very good at it.


I don't, because I believe that you'll only end up with more of the same. The change I want is absolute. Your world is dead, or dying, mine has yet to be born.
All ideas grow out of History, and they also shape history- Moa Tse-Tung.

See, your philosophies are absolute. So it is already doomed. You leave no room for any other view or philosophy. So anyone else is an adversary whether you realize this or not, it is so. This is how people end up hurting other people.
When you are absolute about your ideals, all others that are not, are absolutely against you.

This is why the VENUS project will never arrive. But what I believe will happen is that we will synthesis some of the philosophies it has (as they are not new or profound, they just appear that way to you due to the juxtaposition that has been presented to you in a video). The VENUS project ignores many realities that are obvious. It presents ideas that are vague and obtuse but preached like they are real and achievable only if 'everyone would just do it our way'.
Your words say as much.

Have you ever heard of Maslow's Triangle?
I bet you haven't.

The concept of Maslow's triangle is that once certain needs are satisfied(like the basics, water, food, shelter etc etc.) people will be free to pursue certain higher needs, and these include things like love, and esteem, feelings of safety, psychological well being etc etc. before people will begin to act in an unselfish manner. This is the premise of the VENUS project, that ultimately it will provide the environment that will place people in a position to reach the ultimate step in Maslow's Triangle, that is self-actualization.
And this is where the VENUS project fails.
The VENUS project projects the needs of society onto it, then provides for those needs and then presents the ideal that once these needs are met, all societies problems will disappear. Things like crime, and poverty, illness etc etc.
Maslow's Triangle cannot be verified by science.
The promise that it will meet all needs is based on technology and science that does not even exist yet. VENUS project merely states that if we apply ourselves to these problems, the solutions will just appear, like it is a given! Just a matter of time and application!


To bad we couldn't get along.
Your ideology is already marking out your enemies. This sounds like one of your absolutes.
That road is yours my friend. I'll leave you to it, there is no utopia down there and only the inverse of that which you were promised.


What you seem to miss, or cannot comprehend is that the New Age Movement has the exact same philosophies as the political utopians you are now following. That is why Zeitgeist uses Theosophical propaganda in part 1.
It is a promise of Oneness amongst men, a place where global society with a centralist system(see venus project) transforms the world socially, economically and spiritually.
These are not far from Corrupt political Tyrants that also had a centralist view that socially and economically and spiritually transformed their countries. See china and russia- communism.
These are absolute.
Look at these Channeled messages from Theosophical religious leaders(the same sources that are used in Zeitgeist part 1).
In Alice Baileys Externalization of the Hierachy, she makes excuses(Via the Entity that is channeled) for despots that shared the New age Utopian ideology that the VENUS project and ZGM are now endorsing and promoting.

"All the things I channeled through Karl Marx follow the same social science and economics I taught in the Bible and am teaching here...."

"The major religions are facing Socialism as a force they can build my Kingdom with, and they will take the initiative and introduce Communism into it. No sermon preached of any world religion that leaves out Marxism-Leninism can face the immediate reality." [7]

"They [France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Portugal] have...reacted to that force [Shamballa Force] through the medium of certain great and outstanding personalities who were peculiarly sensitive to the will-to-power and the will-to-change and who...have altered the character of their national life, and emphasised increasingly the wider human values. The men who inspired the French revolution; the conqueror, Napoleon; Bismarck, the creator of a nation; Mussolini, the regenerator of his people; Hitler, who lifted a distressed people upon his shoulders; Lenin, the idealist; Stalin and Franco are all expressions of the Shamballa force and of certain little understood energies. These have wrought significant changes in their day and generation...

"We call these people dictators, demagogues, inspired leaders, or just and wise men, according to our particular ideology, tradition, attitudes to our fellowmen and our particular political, economic and religious training. But all these leaders are...in the last analysis, highly developed personalities. They are being used to engineer great and needed changes and to alter the face of civilization...

"Blame not the personalities involved or the men who produce these events before which we stand today bewildered and appalled. They are only the product of the past and the victims of the present. At the same time, they are the agents of destiny, the creators of the new order and the initiators of the new civilization; they are the destroyers of what must be destroyed before humanity can go forward along the Lighted Way."[8]

Remember when you said this.

The change I want is absolute. Your world is dead, or dying, mine has yet to be born.

Sounds a lot like New Age Mystical channeling.
Sounds like Zeitgeist religion.
Sounds like Venus project politics.



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 06:47 AM
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Originally posted by Stop-loss!
I like Zeitgiest. If I never saw that movie in the first place, I never would have found my new home, ATS.


Zeitgeist movies are both excellent movies, i don't believe in anyway they are part of the NWO.
Zeitgeist is also what bought me to ATS, it is an excellent start to anyone seeking the truth.
In regards to the religion section anyone who spends about 30min bothering to research Christianity (mainly Catholicism) will see that its all based on paganism.

Also you should check out a doco called "ring of Power" it is similar to Zeitgeist but more in depth



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 07:58 AM
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The first installment was a very well thought out and put together presentation.

The unfortunate fact that many portions of the religious segment have been shown to be inaccurate, embellished, or flat out wrong, should not take away from the overall production, or message being conveyed - and that is, that we are being lied to - on ALL fronts.

This is one of those 'don't throw the baby out with the bathwater' situations. For 2 reasons:

1) I've seen very little, if anything, to debunk the back remaining two-thirds of this film, regarding 9/11 and the monetary system. Moreover, there has been SO much additional material to come out regarding these two subjects (and corroborating the ZM's position) that there is really no need to analyze those too much further.

I think we've all noticed (just in this thread alone) that when people talk about 'debunking Zeitgeist' they are almost exclusively talking about the religious portion, but let's look at that for a second...

2) Let's just assume that 100% of it is fantasy, just for the sake of argument. Isn't it amazing how someone could easily draw those conclusions based on the evidence provided to them through scripture, astrology, and history? Let that be a lesson: Over thousands of years, through multiple translations and uncountable (different) interpretations, isn't it possible that whatEVER the 'correct' story is, it may also contain some inconsistencies, inaccuracies, exaggerations, and embellishments?

I think so. Just my $.02



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 03:00 PM
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reply to post by atlasastro
 


Ok, i'll agree I am not that good at assuming. But I'll go out on a limb here.

I assume that you are assuming things about me.

The way you come across is that I have somehow been "indoctrinated" by a politico/religious movement. I have not been. I have already adressed your accusations that the TGM has a religious agenda. I have studied the material you have provided. I have already told you that I personally found it unconclusive. Zeitgeist is an atheist movement, Peter Joseph, and Jaques Fresco are both hardcore atheists. So yeah, that's still got me laughing, no matter what wavy lines you are trying to draw between TZM and Theosophy. I admitted to some similarities. The Venus project also advocates love of our fellow man. Does that make it christian ?

Let's move on to politics. I did not wait for the Venus Project to come around to start thinking the way I do. I have been a militant leftwing anarchist for many years. The Venus Project is a perfect form of anarchy. I have met many other anarchists in the movement, who joined for the same reason I did.

I've said it once and I'll say it again. This going nowhere. I am not an adolescent who has been hoodwinked into some crazy beliefs by some wacky gurus. I am a full grown human being who has made a deliberate political choice. It's your choice whether you want to agree with me or not. But do not make the mistake of believing that my choices have not been thought out, or carefully studied. I am an ideologue. That also you can disagree with. But it is not your place to tell me that I, or the people who believe what I do, are wrong.

Can we agree to disagree ?



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 05:13 PM
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The 2 Zeitgeist movies are the best documentaries to ever be released and to say they're NWO is just plain religious...

Zeitgeist is about equality for all and the eradication of division which religion causes.

Although i wouldn't say im an atheist, i'd be more inclined to say im an agnostic because there just has to be some sort of supreme creator behind all of this...



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 06:15 PM
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The first "documentary/movie" was called the "esoteric aganeda", then i think came the Zietgiest, then the Zietgiest Andenndum, then (if i am correct) the venus project orientation guide and the last one i heard of was the Kymatica.... i think i have seen them all in order, alot of the information presented is kinda repeated through out the "documentarys" but the fact that the esoteric agenda was filmed and the 1st zeitgiest was released before they even started to associate themselves with the Venus Project headed by Jacque Fresco, leads me to belive that throught the research they performed, is how that were introduced to the Venus project...

Which is an "emergant' idea, meaning it is not as sent as the comunist manifesto, like removing the banking systems, (eh hem... Like the central bank of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, the Federal Reserve)

i would suggest watching and reading and taking from it what you see as a way that would benifit you.

personally like the idea of renewable energy like geothermal, solar,wind, and tidal powers... i think Jacques Fresco is on to something really benifical to alot of people, one thing i don't see in this video series is the ideas of permaculture though...???



posted on Jan, 11 2010 @ 11:37 PM
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reply to post by nvprose1
 


I agree. We could have unlimited energy from solar and wind energy as zeitgiests suggests, but then TPTB prevent that already but making stuff like that expensive as hell. I just hope I can get free energy when I get out and invest on my own projects.



posted on Jan, 15 2010 @ 10:08 PM
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Originally posted by Alasian
reply to post by atlasastro
 


Look, I know what activism is. I've been an activist acting individually here in my country for many years, since my teens. That's not the point though, activism doesn't mean you follow mainstream politics of any sorts.
You are no different to any politics. The only difference between ZGM and mainstream politics and mainstream political activists in movements, are the fact that they are mainstream and you are not.
So there is no difference except a mainstream exposure.
When or if ZGM becomes mainstream you will be no different at all to all other political groups and activists.
The only way ZGM and VENUS can bring change is to become Mainstream. Inevitably you will be what you claim you are not.



Also, I didn't say that ZGM is not political, I just said it is not involved in politics in the average way the layman would consider "politics" to be.
Your claim is that it is not the same in the common sense. It is. The only difference is that you seem to place a "common sense" on all other ideologies when the only differentiation is in the exposure to the mainstream. In the common sense of politics, ZGM is common of socialist movements.


To be frank, the word "politics" comes from the greek word "politeia" ΠΟΛΙΤΕΙΑ, which means "city-state". Someone who is involved with serving his or her state, is considered to be a citizen, πολίτης -politis- in Greek.
Yes, so be frank that ZGM appeals to a person who wishes to SERVE THE STATE ACCORDING TO ZGM philosophy. ZGM expresses that the STATE is the GLOBE. This philosophy also includes the reliance on RELIGIOUS propaganda to promote and further the ZGM philosophy and POLITICAL ideology that a PERSON uses to SERVE the state.
ZGM appears to not leave room for ANY OTHER ideology. IT does this by dismissing POLITICS as a whole leaving ZGM SOLUTION for the GLOBE. A GLOBAL POLITIC that CITIZENS need SERVE in order to SERVE the STATE as presented by ZGM regardless of any other political philosophy or view or belief.

That is a frank description.



The Zeitgeist movement is a politics movement in the sense that it is involve with creating a new kind of community (i.e. the Venus project).
I don't see anything bad with that buddy.
Do you see any problems with using a religion to lie and mislead so as to promote that VENUS project?
Do you see a problem with inciting fear and paranoia of our current culture based on conspiracy theory conjecture and insinuated truths and conclusion from conspiracy, fear and paranoia?
Because that is what Zeitgeist Movie does.
You are basing you ideals of VENUS juxtaposed against a false "reality" that Zeitgeist presents, a reality based on religious lies, conspiracy and insinuation.


Also, please, don't consider America or ANY country in the world to be a democracy. Democracy was only achieved once in the past, by the ancient Greeks, and that lasted ONLY for a few years. Even though it didn't last long, I blame immaturity of the times, not that now we are more mature, but at least the Venus project, and Zeitgeist movement are trying to BRING ABOUT that level of maturity, so the world can pass on to a TRUE democratic state. If you don't like this, maybe you feel better accustomed to the fascist dictatorships that rule the world today. America proclaims itself "the biggest democracy in the world" but America has never been democratic, it has never been a republic either. It was not designed to be one, and that is why America and the whole world need this change that Zeitgeist is PROPOSING. Remember this always!!! We are just PROPOSING this form of change, not trying to impose it on anyone.
As I said before, please don't spew the ZGM political and religious propaganda.


So all I have to say to anyone who still thinks that Zeitgeist is part of the NWO, is that yeah!!! We agree man, we ARE the New World Order!!! We PROPOSE to bring a NEW WORLD ORDER that will change this shameful existence which exists now! We want to create a community where people are not slaves to money, we want to live without the governments controlling us.
VENUS project is all about control.
It wants to control religion, politics and economy all under one system.
The control of resources(economy) based on its ideology.
Who will control the resources. Who decides what will go were and how.
How will the system work given the vast majority of its system is reliant on technology that does not exist.
How will it cater for people who do not want to follow the VENUS and ZGM philosophy.
What about other organized religions and political groups?



If you agree with us, feel free to come join and help us bring about this New World Order. And just to leave confusions out of this, lets make it New and Better World Order, for all the people, all life forms to live harmoniously in coexistance with each other. It is the only way.
I agree. As I have stated in an early post, I believe VENUS will be synthesized in part, into the evolution of society.



On the other hand, if you do not agree with Zeitgeist, nobody is forcing you to join or anything. You don't even have to speak of the Zeitgeist movement anymore if you don't like it. I assure you, we don't have any secret plans to take over the world hahaha, we have OPEN plans to take over the world. Our plans are to take over the world as humanity united, and not as money united!
If Zeitgeist was not keeping secrets, why did it need to lie in part 1.
Why does it need to make out that there are others that are keeping the secrets based on conspiracy theory?
Humanity United you say.
Why can we not be united in diversity.


atlasastro, please feel free to oppose the ZGM at all times, I for one am happy to answer your questions about the movement's ideology and I think any ZG members in ATS will be happy as well.
Well answer them then. Answer the questions I have asked relating to the religious propaganda in Part 1. It is that simple.


"Now if you would please answer my questions, from this post and my last, instead of spewing Zeitgeist and VENUS project religious and political propaganda, I would appreciate it."

-As I said, I am happy to answer any questions, but when asked in this manner I will refuse to. I don't "spew" anything, I am a thinking human being, and any other assumption apart from that is an insult not only towards me but firstly upon yourself. Have a nice one.

Answer the questions please.



posted on Jan, 15 2010 @ 10:44 PM
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Originally posted by Ismail
reply to post by atlasastro
 


Ok, i'll agree I am not that good at assuming. But I'll go out on a limb here.

I assume that you are assuming things about me.
As I said, you are not very good.


The way you come across is that I have somehow been "indoctrinated" by a politico/religious movement. I have not been.
Do you realize the incredible irony of this statement? Given that the ZGM is built upon a movie based upon claims we have all been indoctrinated.

I have already adressed your accusations that the TGM has a religious agenda. I have studied the material you have provided. I have already told you that I personally found it unconclusive.
You are a liar.
You have provide no such rebuttle to any of the material I have provide.
Liar.
This is what you said.
post by Ismail
You addressed none of the issues I raised but instead babble on about my personal perception.


Zeitgeist is an atheist movement, Peter Joseph, and Jaques Fresco are both hardcore atheists. So yeah, that's still got me laughing, no matter what wavy lines you are trying to draw between TZM and Theosophy. I admitted to some similarities. The Venus project also advocates love of our fellow man. Does that make it christian ?
There are clear links to theosophy. I know it is hard for you to take the truth. But there it is.
The line are not wavy my friend. The entire first section is reliant of religion, it promotes that religion and the philosophy. If Joseph is atheist, why has he not used an Atheistic philosophy or explanation in Part 1.
He uses Theosophy. Plain and simple.


Let's move on to politics. I did not wait for the Venus Project to come around to start thinking the way I do. I have been a militant leftwing anarchist for many years. The Venus Project is a perfect form of anarchy. I have met many other anarchists in the movement, who joined for the same reason I did.
It is the same philosophy, so your point is meaningless other appeal to point out you and others already had a political stance that is reflected by the Venus project.


I've said it once and I'll say it again. This going nowhere. I am not an adolescent who has been hoodwinked into some crazy beliefs by some wacky gurus. I am a full grown human being who has made a deliberate political choice. It's your choice whether you want to agree with me or not. But do not make the mistake of believing that my choices have not been thought out, or carefully studied. I am an ideologue.
Yes, you are an Ideologue.

Main Entry: ideo·logue
Variant(s): also idea·logue \ˈī-dē-ə-ˌlȯg, -ˌläg\
Function: noun
Etymology: French idéologue, back-formation from idéologie
Date: 1815
1 : an impractical idealist : theorist
2 : an often blindly partisan advocate or adherent of a particular ideology



But do not make the mistake of believing that my choices have not been thought out, or carefully studied. I am an ideologue.
www.merriam-webster.com...
Perhaps you may want to study more carefully Mr. I am an Ideologue.




That also you can disagree with. But it is not your place to tell me that I, or the people who believe what I do, are wrong.
Really. That seem exactly what You and ZGM are telling the WHOLE WORLD.
You responses are devoid of any real substance other than the typical rantings of a minion given an ideology to repeat.
More commonly know as an Ideologue.



If this is what the VENUS project is building itself on, God Help the planet!


[edit on 15/1/10 by atlasastro]



posted on Jan, 16 2010 @ 02:31 AM
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Zeitgeist is NWO propaganda, whether it was made to be or not.
It has all the same aims - globalism, no countries, currency, communal religion, see, when you actively move to discredit religion it must be taken as a sign of motive, most intelligent people know that religion in a whole sense is used for control, but to say your way is right and their way is wrong is further control.

Cult mentality = they taught me something that makes sense, so I believe it. You will find 'universal truths' in anything from Christianity to Scientology to Satanism to Zeitgeist, to Theosophy and Freemasonry.

Next part: Tease.
They will say 'religion is corrupted' to sucker you in, and then say Jesus never existed, which is wholly un-knowable, as if it is fact. They will say NWO exists! to sucker you in, but then tell you its just some greedy humans, simple as that. They will tell you the system does not work! to sucker you in, and give you their utopian unrealistic ideas.

What does this mean? They give you something appealing, with a skewed response to make you lean to their side. If you heard it in reverse order, you would never fall for it.

Example: Scientology talks about peace and love, selflessness, etc. Yet we all agree it is a scam. Why is this? We heard about their alien souls idea first. Why do they have people joining all they time? They heard about the idealogies and universal truths behind it, first, then fall for the rest by association.

By the way venus project, Venus is the morning star, aka. Lucifer.



posted on Jan, 16 2010 @ 05:59 AM
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reply to post by atlasastro
 


Alastro this is tiring me. So now I am a liar ? Please explain this to me.

I have wasted my time studying the material you provided. I have watched EVERY SINGLE VIDEO. I have already told you that I disagree. Do you want me to watch them again and make out a point by point rebuttal ? I am not your puppet, and I am not going to submit to what your vision of a debate is. I DISAGREE WITH YOU. Here it is again, just to make things perfectly clear.

I DISAGREE WITH YOU. I DISAGREE WITH YOUR CONCLUSIONS ABOUT THE ZGM. I DISAGREE WITH THE VIDEOS YOU POSTED.

Is that clear enough ? Your stance is as partisan as my own. I have admitted that there are similarities between Theosophy and the ZGM. There are also similarities with budhism, and in fact, most of the major religions on the face of this planet. Can you not uderstand that I do not believe that the ZGM is Propaganda for Theosophy ? Theosophy is a religion, with it's superstitions. Theosphists (?) believe in angels, and reincarnation. They believe in karma. They believe in the immortal individuality of man.

These things are laughed at by Fresco and Joseph. But that is not relevant. I don't care what they think.

Because Fresco and Joseph are not our gurus. They are not our leaders. They are not important. AND THEY SAY SO THEMSELVES. We are the movement. I am. Any other member is. I have yet to meet anyone within the movement trying to spread religious propaganda. In fact, apart from one buddhist, I have yet to meet a believer of any religion. I am not a theosphist. The vast majority of the movement is not, in fact I don't think that even one is. So believe what you want, but allow me my OPINION, which is that the ZGM is officially, along with every single member with which I have conversed, (with the exeption of one), AN ATHEIST MOVEMENT.

Seconds. I am an Ideologue. Please laugh, and scorn. You have called me a liar, suggested that am purposfully seeking to change the subject, and that am purposfully avoiding points so as to fit my agenda. I have remained polite, and tried to answer you as best I could. Yes I am an ideologue. I formed my own political, sociological, and philosophical opinion at the beginning of my adult life, and have constantly refined it through reading, discussion and the gathering of new information. I have been a militant anarchist for nearly ten years. I discovered Zeitgeist two years ago. It fits in exactly with my anarchist ideals. Where is the problem ?

I AM an ideologue. I am being honest with you. I BLINDLY follow my own convictions, while new information is analysed and if necessary, digested. I am admitting my biais. And you find this laughable ? And you even mock me for this ? You're coming across as a self-conceited power freak.

Your opinion is just as biased as mine. Here's something I learnt when I was still a child. There is no judeo-christian right, and no judeo-christian wrong. There are just perceptions, and opinions. You have yours, I have mine.

Your methods, your scorning, and your obvious superiority complex are tiring. You are not necessarily smarter than others. I haven't shoved my level of education in your face, and I don't need to. Just bear in mind that my convictions have been arrived at through ample studying of various academic domains. You are debating with the tact of an attention-seeking adolescent, unable to admit that someone else can be intelligent AND not agree with you.





[edit on 16-1-2010 by Ismail]



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