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Why do capitalists want to socialize our debt?

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posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 02:32 AM
Seems like an oxymoron doesn't it? All of the talk about flat taxes/fair taxes really results in socialized debt. We all pay the same percentage regardless of wealth.

So I guess forced equality is ok as long as it's not profitable?

I believe capitalism can work by the way...but I also believe anti-trust laws need to be well as much stronger trade laws to strengthen American manufacturing and independence which also cuts hard into corporatism.

The same applies with the bank bailouts. The banks keep whatever they profit...but if they lose our taxpayer money....we all share in that debt...yet we don't share in the profits.

Just something I thought I'd point out as it's something many people probably haven't thought about.

I don't think a flat tax/fair tax is the answer...nor a VAT tax....I believe strong and fair tariffs on imports is the real answer to fixing our economy. Want to sell your stuff here? You will pay a tax that is high enough for American employed businesses to compete.

It's more tax revenue that isn't a direct tax on US citizens and it gives small businesses a fighting chance as they cannot compete with international corporations who are basically imposing slave labor on it's citizens...which by the way will come here if we don't change things soon. Even if jobs come back now as things stand currently, they will all be lower paying jobs.

We are in decline.

posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 02:37 AM
reply to post by David9176

There is a huge difference paying taxes to having it taken from you, before you even get it. I believe it is called stealing.

Next time they might just come out and offer to lend you a hand and make you accept whatever BS they want you to have.

Oh yeah, healthcare.

Doctors putting on the rubber gloves now.

posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 02:48 AM
reply to post by 12.21.12

There is a huge difference paying taxes to having it taken from you, before you even get it. I believe it is called stealing.

That's happened to me since I received my first paycheck at 14 years old. I also take joy in knowing that I pay for Social Security knowing that most likely I will never receive those benefits back.

Next time they might just come out and offer to lend you a hand and make you accept whatever BS they want you to have. Oh yeah, healthcare.

Being forced into buying private health insurance by the federal government? I agree.

You must also understand that I am playing devil's advocate. Capitalism cannot be successful without a strong middle class...which is why our country is falling apart as the middle class is disappearing.

The strongest middle class in the known history of the world and we are letting it slip away because of corporatism.

posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 02:54 AM
reply to post by David9176

Any kind of income taxation is contrary to capitalist theory. On the other hand, anti-trust laws are wholly harmonious with capitalist theory. One of the primary tenets of capitalism is massive competition. As the theory goes; businesses will fail and if there is massive competition then the failure of a few businesses will not be felt by the economy as a whole.

In this day and age of "Too Big To Fail" politics, it seems to me that it hasn't occurred to most people that there are ant-trust laws in place that are supposed to prevent any company or corporation from becoming too big to fail to begin with.

One of the biggest problems and I believe to be a part of a world so brainwashed by socialist agenda, is that too many people will point towards major corporations and claim this is what is wrong with capitalism. Major corporations do not adhere to capitalist theory and clearly believe "competition is a sin" (John D. Rockefeller), and love regulations and will lobby for them, to ensure that they have a stronger edge in the market than small businesses would.

Back to the issue of taxation, earning income is a natural right of all people and rights can not be taxed. There is no way to disguise income taxation as being "fair" and it should only be levied by Congress in dire circumstances and once those circumstances are handled the income tax should be repealed.

posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 02:56 AM
reply to post by David9176

IIt has been this way for a while. This is nothing new.

Where is the damn reset button?

See the thing about healthcare, honestly if you were on fire and went to the hospital you would get treated, even if you had no health insurance. Even if it wasn't a life threatening emergency, they would treat you.

They are not even trying to make America a socialist country, they are just tearing it down as regularly scheduled.

posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 03:47 AM
reply to post by David9176

It makes no sense for a capitalist to wish to socialize debt in a true free market economy. Socialized debt levels the playing field and therefore is a tax on innovation and economic darwinism in reverse.

Now in a system where the government and corporate interests are essentially the same thing it makes perfect sense to socialize the debt as it marginalizes the impact poor business practices. When you're making the kind of dough that the gents on the street are making, you will trade a bit of upside for marginalized risk.

Socialized debt is exactly why these banks became "too big to fail". The true risks associated with their business models were obscured by monetary policy which enabled them to make a ton of coin and then be in a position that when the dam broke the government had to bail them out.

You're being too pure in your question. You need to think about what kind of capitalism we really have today, not what was envisioned by Adam Smith or that exists down the street from you at the local market. It is on the large scale a totally quasi-government model. A totally symbiotic quasi-government model.

posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 06:44 AM
I agree;
Either put tariffs on imported products and services or get rid of American minimum wage (which I think is socialism in a way)
and nobody wants to get rid of minimum wage;
So that only leaves 1 option

People were talking about putting tariffs on imported goods for years way before the economy even started crashing;
But TPTB seem to not care since they have investments all over the planet

We need to start kicking out Political decision makers who have vested interests in things that goes against the good of the citizens that they serve;
And we also need to start doing thorough background checks on new candidates

posted on Jan, 9 2010 @ 10:58 AM
Our current system of taxation is a joke.

When someone gets to a certain level of income their basic way of collecting that money changes, it is no longer considered income.

Their are all kinds of ways they manipulate this.

Trusts, Foundations, Tax shelters etc etc etc.

Why is it, these were introduced, for the benefit of the people or for the benefit of the elites?

A consumption tax is the ONLY fair and equitable way to implement a tax system. Hence, it will NEVER be implemented.

If you add up all of the different taxing schemes on the American people, you will find that the effective tax rate is HIGHEST on middle America.

I have tried to research effective tax rates but saying it is a quagmire understates it immensely.

Excellent topic OP.

posted on Jan, 12 2010 @ 09:39 PM
reply to post by David9176

The problem is that if you put up trade barriers there would be no net gain because of the inflationary effect . All the costs of increased wages would be passed onto the consumer . Your exporters would have even less access to over seas markets . If the US agricultural sector was smart it would have gone the way of New Zealand and eliminated farm subsidies . Eliminating farm subsidies would ultimately bring a greater degree of prosperity to the more agricultural minded parts of the US .

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