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More questions of the OS - Operational Suitability

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posted on Jan, 15 2010 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
There is nothing truthful there to support your point that restricted also means guarded.


How many sites must i post before you can admit the fact that restricted also means guarded?

www.aero-news.net...
The airport is deep within heavily restricted airspace, guarded by fighters. After receiving a fighter escort, an erring pilot would likely face confiscation of his airplane, major legal fees and probably a personal fee of jail time.

911citizenswatch.org...
They refuse to hold anyone accountable at any level for the massive failures of response to foreknowledge of the method and targets of the attack, preparations based on that knowledge, specific forewarnings to government and public officials against taking commercial flights that day, and the routine air emergency procedures taken so frequently in the past by FAA and NORAD around the country, and by local military fighters in the restricted and guarded airspace around Washington, DC.

[edit on 15-1-2010 by REMISNE]




posted on Jan, 15 2010 @ 01:48 PM
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reply to post by REMISNE
 


You are completely wrong, Roger, in this assumption:



How many sites must i post before you can admit the fact that restricted also means guarded?



Thing is, when you try to tell this nonsense to pilots who know better, it doesn't look good for you.

PRIOR to 9/11, the airspace around the DC area was little different, in terms of ATC procedures, airspace classification, etc, then around the NYC metropolitan area, or just about ANY large U.S. city.

Research the term "Class B" airspace if you wish to understand better.

(The major, if slight, difference between DC and NYC is merely the existence of P-56, A&B, and those Prohibited Areas have been there for decades! Still, didn't stop the guy in the Cessna in 1994 from crashing on the White House lawn...tech.mit.edu...)



Of course, since 9/11 there are various and sundry different types of restrictions, and any unauthorized entry is going to be noticed more quickly, and responded to more actively than in the past.

You can also look into "TFR"s (Temporary Flight Restrictions)

Now, keep in mind, also, about the airspace over DC...even the Prohibited Areas...it all only extends vertically to 18,000 feet (FL180).

Laughingly, you brought up the Groom Lake area (commonly called "Area 51") which actually is within a whole bunch of what's known, in aviation, as "Restricted" Airspace. Note difference between "Restricted" and "Prohibited". In "R" airspace entry is authorized under certian conditions, and times, altitudes and dates of effectivity vary by site.

This, from Wiki, discusses the area around Groom Lake, west of Las Vegas, and although everyone knows already about "Area 51", it is still not acknowledged as such, but is "code-worded" a lot.
en.wikipedia.org...

IF you want to see an actual aviation navigation chart, go to www.skyvector.com...

Type in 'KLAS' in the box upper left corner, push 'Go'.

THEN, you have a choice of different charts, choose the "CG-18 WAC" (World Aeronautical Chart)

Over on the left panels are descriptions, ways to understand all of the symbols, and located either there, or on other panels, are the various restricted airspace areas, and there specifics, hours of operation, facility to contact, etc, etc.

...have fun learning.....

(You could also go down to your local airport and pay a flight insturctor for his/her time to give you personal ground school...)



posted on Jan, 16 2010 @ 02:25 AM
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Originally posted by weedwhackerThing is, when you try to tell this nonsense to pilots who know better, it doesn't look good for you.


Even a pilot should know the following.

Problem is your just talking DC area. There were several other areas before 9/11 that were guarded.



[edit on 16-1-2010 by REMISNE]



posted on Jan, 16 2010 @ 12:40 PM
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reply to post by REMISNE
 


Yes. But the original statement about "most guarded...in the world" was wrong in 2001 and is still wrong.



posted on Jan, 17 2010 @ 01:04 AM
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Originally posted by pteridine
Yes. But the original statement about "most guarded...in the world" was wrong in 2001 and is still wrong.



And your proof is ?



posted on Jan, 17 2010 @ 09:41 AM
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reply to post by REMISNE
 


Repeating from above....


Still, didn't stop the guy in the Cessna in 1994 from crashing on the White House lawn...tech.mit.edu...)

Oh, and what about the German pilot who landed a Cessna in Red Square, in Moscow?!?
??

Surely the Russians have as much interest in "guarding" the airpace around THEIR Capitol, too???

Or is it too hard to admit you are wrong?



posted on Jan, 17 2010 @ 09:45 AM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
Still, didn't stop the guy in the Cessna in 1994 from crashing on the White House lawn...tech.mit.edu...)

Oh, and what about the German pilot who landed a Cessna in Red Square, in Moscow?!?
??

Surely the Russians have as much interest in "guarding" the airpace around THEIR Capitol, too???

Or is it too hard to admit you are wrong?


Maybe becasue at the time they were not considered a threat, ever think about that?

Is it to hard to admit you are wrong?



posted on Jan, 17 2010 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by REMISNE

Maybe becasue at the time they were not considered a threat, ever think about that?

Is it to hard to admit you are wrong?


You have made the "not considered a threat" statement before. No one had any way of knowing what sort of threat the aircraft was or what would happen.
A small, unknown aircraft headed for any high value target is always considered to be a threat. This is because any unknown headed for any high value target is always considered to be a threat.
Shooting at such a threat has hazards also. Wreckage and missile parts or projectiles falling into a densely populated area could cause serious damage and for no reason if the pilot had made an error, was confused or had some sort of medical emergency. Getting approval to shoot may take much longer than the flight time to impact. I'd guess that standing orders have been clarified and small craft approaching the White House now have a "dead line" of some sort.

"Is it to hard to admit you are wrong?"



posted on Jan, 17 2010 @ 11:49 AM
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Originally posted by REMISNE

Originally posted by pteridine
Yes. But the original statement about "most guarded...in the world" was wrong in 2001 and is still wrong.



And your proof is ?


Any US Navy Carrier Task Group is more guarded than the White House. There is a good sized keep-away radius for air, surface, and sub-surface intruders.
See my previous post explaining the difference between many oversized "No Tresspassing" signs and a small "keep out" sign accompanied by a homicidal maniac with a shotgun.



posted on Jan, 17 2010 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by GenRadek
And the "truth" movement just shot itself in the foot. Unless you expect me to believe that Flight 93 was in fact "remote controlled" and no one was on board, and they somehow "lost control" with it and THATS why it had to be shot down. Well that still makes no sense because all they'd have to do is let the plane fly out of control until it lost its gas and crashed outta fuel wherever. And then THAT way the "OS" would be, the terrorist hijackers lost their way and ran out of fuel and crashed.

This is exactly what shows the OS to be false.
If the aircraft was to come to the earth in any typical manner there would be evidence that would refute the entire concocted 911 scenario. There would be passengers bodies, there would be hijackers bodied some still possibly alive. That is how aircraft crash.
This could not be allowed to happen. Not only with Shanksville but the Pentagon and the twins.
It's all a lie. Not even coincidence could allow this to happen.
Why can't you understand the shear mathematical impossibility of the OS.
Oh! duh, We found DNA, we found passports and drivers' licenses. Ba
Why do they claim they find stuff they shouldn't find and try to blow the smoke
with the stuff they do claim to have found.
Show me any other aircraft crash that resembles the Shanksville hoax. You cannot.



posted on Jan, 17 2010 @ 01:12 PM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by REMISNE
 


Repeating from above....


Still, didn't stop the guy in the Cessna in 1994 from crashing on the White House lawn...tech.mit.edu...)

Oh, and what about the German pilot who landed a Cessna in Red Square, in Moscow?!?
??

Surely the Russians have as much interest in "guarding" the airpace around THEIR Capitol, too???

Or is it too hard to admit you are wrong?


Oh! Weedy you are at it again.
Comparing apples to oranges.
I don't think the entire US or Russian's air defense systems were at
their highest levels in history during the tiny aircraft
(that could slip under radar) incidents occurred.
At least thank god it didn't take you a couple pages to spit it out.



posted on Jan, 17 2010 @ 02:19 PM
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reply to post by Donny 4 million
 


Mr. Donny, you must be as familiar as I (and many of my other colleagues, in the airline business) am with many, many, many other airliner accidents, and the results in order to fully understand and comprehend, as most of us do, the events of 9/11.

For instance, many keep asking HOW small items such as passports, credit and debit cards, driver's licenses, other papers, etc can survive an horrific crash....when actgually this is NOT limited to the events of 9/11, has been seen many, manmy times, just not mentioned in same way, since no "controversy" usually exists in most accident investigations.

BUT, how about a tiny four-year-old girl as the ONLY survivor of a terrible airliner accident? Impossible?? Improbable?? Actualy happened. HOW? WHY?


The young girl was Cecelia Cichan, a 4-year-old traveling, in seat 8F, with her parents and older brother, on a return flight from a visit to her grandparents in nearby Warminster. She had third-degree burns over 30 percent of her body, suffered a broken leg, and experienced difficulty breathing.

"Her survival was due to being padded by her mother, at least we assume it was her mother," said Pam Davidson, one of the paramedics present when Cichan was found. "There was debris everywhere and there was no way to determine if the wreckage was part of the plane or another vehicle."


www.check-six.com...


This is just one example, well documented. I suggest it as required reading, for a start......



posted on Jan, 17 2010 @ 05:01 PM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Donny 4 million
 


Mr. Donny, you must be as familiar as I (and many of my other colleagues, in the airline business) am with many, many, many other airliner accidents, and the results in order to fully understand and comprehend, as most of us do, the events of 9/11.

For instance, many keep asking HOW small items such as passports, credit and debit cards, driver's licenses, other papers, etc can survive an horrific crash....when actgually this is NOT limited to the events of 9/11, has been seen many, manmy times, just not mentioned in same way, since no "controversy" usually exists in most accident investigations.

BUT, how about a tiny four-year-old girl as the ONLY survivor of a terrible airliner accident? Impossible?? Improbable?? Actualy happened. HOW? WHY?


The young girl was Cecelia Cichan, a 4-year-old traveling, in seat 8F, with her parents and older brother, on a return flight from a visit to her grandparents in nearby Warminster. She had third-degree burns over 30 percent of her body, suffered a broken leg, and experienced difficulty breathing.

"Her survival was due to being padded by her mother, at least we assume it was her mother," said Pam Davidson, one of the paramedics present when Cichan was found. "There was debris everywhere and there was no way to determine if the wreckage was part of the plane or another vehicle."


www.check-six.com...


This is just one example, well documented. I suggest it as required reading, for a start......



An answer to this would be more apropos.
I think you were just half reffering to my reply to swampy above????
This was my last reply to your post---

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by REMISNE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Repeating from above....


Still, didn't stop the guy in the Cessna in 1994 from crashing on the White House lawn...tech.mit.edu...)

Oh, and what about the German pilot who landed a Cessna in Red Square, in Moscow?!? ??

Surely the Russians have as much interest in "guarding" the airpace around THEIR Capitol, too???

Or is it too hard to admit you are wrong?



Oh! Weedy you are at it again.
Comparing apples to oranges.
I don't think the entire US or Russian's air defense systems were at
their highest levels in history during the tiny aircraft
(that could slip under radar) incidents occurred.



posted on Jan, 17 2010 @ 07:12 PM
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For everyone's benefit...Because I had to go look it all up to.


Controlled airspace is an aviation term used to describe airspace in which ATC has the authority to control air traffic, the level of which varies with the different classes of airspace. Controlled airspace is established mainly for three different reasons:

* high-volume air traffic areas, e.g. near airports
* IFR traffic under ATC guidance
* security, e.g. ADIZ

It is the opposite of uncontrolled airspace.

Controlled airspace usually exists in the immediate vicinity of busier airports, where aircraft used in commercial air transport flights are climbing out from or making an approach to the airport, or at higher levels where air transport flights would tend to cruise. Some countries also provide controlled airspace almost generally, however in most countries it is common to provide uncontrolled airspace in areas where significant air transport or military activity is not expected.

ICAO classifies airspace in seven classes from classes A to G. Controlled airspace is classes A to E, in order of decreasing ATC regulation of flights. Flight under instrument flight rules (IFR) is allowed in all controlled airspace (some countries also permit IFR in uncontrolled airspace); flight under visual flight rules (VFR) is permitted in all airspace except A. Most countries use only a subset of the seven ICAO classes to classify their airspace.

Restricted airspace is an area (volume) of airspace in which the local controlling authorities have determined that air traffic must be restricted (if not continually prohibited) for safety or security concerns. It is one of many types of special use airspace designations and is depicted on aeronautical charts with the letter "R" followed by a serial number.

According to the United States Federal Aviation Administration (FAA): "Restricted areas denote the existence of unusual, often invisible, hazards to aircraft such as artillery firing, aerial gunnery, or guided missiles. Penetration of restricted areas without authorization from the using or controlling agency may be extremely hazardous to the aircraft and its occupants."

Special use airspace (SUA), is an area designated for operations of a nature such that limitations may be imposed on aircraft not participating in those operations. Often these operations are of a military nature. The designation of SUAs identifies for other users the areas where such activity occurs, provides for segregation of that activity from other users, and allows charting to keep airspace users informed of potential hazards. SUA's are usually depicted on aeronautical charts.

Special use airspace includes: Restricted airspace, Prohibited airspace, Military Operations Areas (MOA), Warning areas, Alert Areas, Temporary Flight Restriction(TFR), and Controlled Firing Areas.



posted on Jan, 17 2010 @ 10:26 PM
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reply to post by mikelee
 


How does this relate to your "most guarded in the world" statement?



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 01:56 AM
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Originally posted by pteridine
Shooting at such a threat has hazards also. Wreckage and missile parts or projectiles falling into a densely populated area could cause serious damage and for no reason if the pilot had made an error, was confused or had some sort of medical emergency. Getting approval to shoot may take much longer than the flight time to impact. I'd guess that standing orders have been clarified and small craft approaching the White House now have a "dead line" of some sort.


Yes, maybe for those reasons or others the small planes were not fired upon.

[edit on 18-1-2010 by REMISNE]



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 02:04 AM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
For instance, many keep asking HOW small items such as passports, credit and debit cards, driver's licenses, other papers, etc can survive an horrific crash....when actgually this is NOT limited to the events of 9/11, has been seen many, manmy times, just not mentioned in same way, since no "controversy" usually exists in most accident investigations.


The problem is with too much evidence was left behind by the "terrorists".

Like the IDs and manuals found in vehilces and suitcases.

www.historycommons.org...:_a_detailed_look=penttbom
Investigators find a remarkable number of possessions left behind by the hijackers:
Two of Mohamed Atta’s bags are found on 9/11. They contain a handheld electronic flight computer, a simulator procedures manual for Boeing 757 and 767 aircraft, two videotapes relating to “air tours” of the Boeing 757 and 747 aircraft, a slide-rule flight calculator, a copy of the Koran, Atta’s passport, his will, his international driver’s license, a religious cassette tape, airline uniforms, a letter of recommendation, “education related documentation” and a note (see September 28, 2001) to other hijackers on how to mentally prepare for the hijacking. [Sydney Morning Herald, 9/15/2001; Boston Globe, 9/18/2001; Independent, 9/29/2001; Associated Press, 10/5/2001]
Marwan Alshehhi’s rental car is discovered at Boston’s Logan Airport containing an Arabic language flight manual, a pass giving access to restricted areas at the airport, documents containing a name on the passenger list of one of the flights, and the names of other suspects. The name of the flight school where Atta and Alshehhi studied, Huffman Aviation, is also found in the car. [Los Angeles Times, 9/13/2001]
A car registered to Nawaf Alhazmi is found at Washington’s Dulles Airport on September 12. This is the same car he bought in San Diego in early 2000 (see March 25, 2000). Inside is a copy of Atta’s letter to the other hijackers, a cashier’s check made out to a flight school in Phoenix, four drawings of the cockpit of a 757 jet, a box cutter-type knife, maps of Washington and New York, and a page with notes and phone numbers. [Arizona Daily Star, 9/28/2001; Cox News Service, 10/21/2001; Die Zeit (Hamburg), 10/1/2002] The name and phone number of Osama Awadallah, a friend of Alhazmi and Khalid Almihdhar in San Diego, is also found on a scrap of paper in the car. [CNN, 2/1/2002]
A rental car is found in an airport parking lot in Portland, Maine. Investigators are able to collect fingerprints and hair samples for DNA analysis. [Portland Press Herald, 10/14/2001]
A Boston hotel room contains airplane and train schedules. [Sydney Morning Herald, 9/15/2001]
FBI agents carry out numerous garbage bags of evidence from a Florida apartment where Saeed Alghamdi lived. [CNN, 9/17/2001]
Two days before 9/11, a hotel owner in Deerfield Beach, Florida, finds a box cutter left in a hotel room used by Marwan Alshehhi and two unidentified men. The owner checks the nearby trash and finds a duffel bag containing Boeing 757 manuals, three illustrated martial arts books, an 8-inch stack of East Coast flight maps, a three-ring binder full of handwritten notes, an English-German dictionary, an airplane fuel tester, and a protractor. The FBI seizes all the items when they are notified on September 12 (except the binder of notes, which the owner apparently threw away). [Miami Herald, 9/16/2001; Associated Press, 9/16/2001]
In an apartment rented by Ziad Jarrah and Ahmed Alhaznawi, the FBI finds a notebook, videotape, and photocopies of their passports. [Miami Herald, 9/15/2001]
In a bar the night before 9/11, after making predictions of a attack on America the next day, the hijackers leave a business card and a copy of the Koran at the bar. The FBI also recovers the credit card receipts from when they paid for their drinks and lap dances. [Associated Press, 9/14/2001]
A September 13 security sweep of Boston airport’s parking garage uncovers items left behind by the hijackers: a box cutter, a pamphlet written in Arabic, and a credit card. [Washington Post, 9/16/2001]
A few hours after the attacks, suicide notes that some of the hijackers wrote to their parents are found in New York. Credit card receipts showing that some of the hijackers paid for flight training in the US are also found. [Los Angeles Times, 9/13/2001]
A FedEx bill is found in a trash can at the Comfort Inn in Portland, Maine, where Atta stayed the night before 9/11. The bill leads to Dubai, United Arab Emirates, allowing investigators to determine much of the funding for 9/11. [Newsweek, 11/11/2001; London Times, 12/1/2001]
A bag hijackers Alhazmi and Almihdhar left at a mosque in Laurel, Maryland, is found on September 12. The bag contains flight logs and even receipts from flight schools from San Diego the year before (see September 9, 2001).
The hijackers past whereabouts can even be tracked by their pizza purchases. An expert points out: “Most people pay cash for pizza. These [hijackers] paid with a credit card. That was an odd thing.” [San Diego Union-Tribune, 9/3/2002] “In the end, they left a curiously obvious trail—from martial arts manuals, maps, a Koran, Internet and credit card fingerprints. Maybe they were sloppy, maybe they did not care, maybe it was a gesture of contempt of a culture they considered weak and corrupt.” [Miami Herald, 9/22/2001] Note The New Yorker’s quote of a former high-level intelligence official: “Whatever trail was left was left deliberately—for the FBI to chase” (see Late September 2001). [New Yorker, 10/8/2001]



[edit on 18-1-2010 by REMISNE]



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by Donny 4 million
This is exactly what shows the OS to be false.
If the aircraft was to come to the earth in any typical manner there would be evidence that would refute the entire concocted 911 scenario. There would be passengers bodies, there would be hijackers bodied some still possibly alive. That is how aircraft crash.

Show me any other aircraft crash that resembles the Shanksville hoax. You cannot.


Donny, you are still working from your vast experience watching disaster movies and don't know what you don't know. Look up flight 427 that crashed just outside of Pittsburgh in September of 1994 and UA flight 585 that crashed near Colorado Springs in March of 1991.

After you look at the photos, revisit your statement about how airplanes crash and bodies being present, with some people possibly being alive.

[edit on 1/18/2010 by pteridine]



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 12:17 PM
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reply to post by REMISNE
 


Why do you say it was "too much evidence?" The attack is unprecedented so the "just right" amount of evidence has not been established. The hijackers probably wanted to be known and likely had no idea if they would be identified or not, so why not leave all the evidence they felt they needed to ensure fame?



posted on Jan, 18 2010 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by REMISNE
 


Sorry...your point???

These guys, not the best pilots in the World, I will grant you that...

BUT, they DID have a lot of money, in order to buy time in whatever simulator they chose to buy time in...

LOOK, if you and I went to buy time in a simulator (AND do you have a lot of money, becuaes I'd like to do that wiht you, if you do.....we could even viudeo tape it!!!)

Which, actually is one basis for an ATS thread I had pondered before, IF we could get a crowd together....and funding....




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