Global freeze and sunspots

Originally posted by treesdancing
I'm somewhat amazed that there is so much debate about this topic on ATS.

It seems to me that many are completely missing one of the most crucial impacts of the CRU leak - that fact that any data or findings published by the IPCC, NASA, Hadley et al. ARE NOT VALID FODDER FOR THIS DEBATE ANY LONGER.

If there is even the slightest chance that they may have deliberately altered their temperature data for nefarious reasons (and then mysteriously lost the raw data to boot), then we cannot use those claims or findings in this debate.

I'm sure you and deniers would like to push that position. Indeed, I'm sure that was the point of the whole devious palaver. But there is no evidence in those emails of any scientific fraud.

What you're proposing is called 'poisoning the well'. A logical fallacy.

Originally posted by nixie_nox


It is winter. Your gonna get snow. One cold winter doesn't negate anything and it is pretty silly and uneducated to imply so.

We have had a solar minimum going on for quite some time. Yet there was record breaking heat all over the planet in 2005.

It was ZERO degrees last night here along the gulf coast of florida. Accompanied with a week of temps inthe teens. It snowed here on the 7th.
Last time it snowed here was 1974. Been living down here for over 40 years am used to balmy weather even in the winter time.
My point is. THERE IS NO GLOBAL WARMING.
Everyone that says we have global warming should be whipped then tar & feathered. For there brain dead if they can't read a temp gauge. More like global cooling. Brrrr..::shakes fist at the Gov't ::this is what you get for "enhancing" our weather...idiots..::shivers with ice hanging off his surf board:: Crap its so cold the waves froze in place....::mutters:: idiots..

::stands behind the flamer cause its warm::

Originally posted by pikestaff
so why are so many scientists talking about suing Al Gore? 600 American scientists have signed a petition stating they don't thinks global warming is man made, so have the Japanese.
As regards snow, the UK has not had that much snow for 30 years, and the last three summers were crap as well.
Just how can %0.004 of the atmosphere (CO2) have so much effect on the other %99.006???
I have spent over 2 years reading about this 'global warming' reports and newspaper articles, all on sites in the WWW, its all there, just need to look for it.

exactly... i mean you have to look at the big picture, if people accept that man made global warming is real, then they are also saying that the earths temp. has been increasing for as long as we have been dumping significant amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, wich is what... since the industrial revolution around 1850 (wich was also the year of the first recorded earth temp.) ... so thats 160 years (at max...).
our planet is aprox. 4.54 billion years old!!!!

160 years is 0,000003% of 4.54 bi years.

all the data we have on earths temp. before we started recording is based on theories and assumptions.

my point is you can't confirm something with only 0,000003% of accurate data...

[edit on 9-1-2010 by bladebosq]

reply to post by melatonin


this is the thing with you AGW religious types, you insist on showing as evidence the same charts and graphs as shown by the IPCC, when it has been shown that there is nothing factual about anything they have shown, in fact most of it has been debunked by real scientists showing its all a huge scam, and a fraud, You ask where i get my charts from, i don't think i need to say, because the evidence is everywhere, but if you need to know check the link at the bottom of my post it has everything you need to know which will tell you the truth. People need to stop following the MSM and do the work for themselves, as some in this thread already have, don't be lied to any more.

The emails and OTHER information does show evidence of fraudulent activities, not just in the emails, but also in the data used for the fake models, they used to convince the none scientists which form the consensus of the IPCC. Now would you deny that they are no all scientist? or like the IPCC insist that they are all scientists, because there is also plenty of evidence to show they are not.

Hmmm. As I see no one heard about the following term before: WINTER.

We have winter. WINTER = SNOW AND COLD. Don't fall into the MSM stories that such as "Oh, my. Heavy snowfall is covering large cities. We're all going to die."

This is happened before and if I must guess it will happen in the next winter too. And on the winter one after that.

The usual traits of winter: Snow and cold. Whoa. What a strange coincidence. The same what we have here.

When on the summer snow is going to fall in N.Y. or in L.A... NOW that time we have trouble. But until this time, welcome in the WINTER SEASON.

Also it's a periodical cycle. Sometimes there are colder winters and sometimes there are warmer winters. In my country we had -20 degree few days ago, now we have 0 and slightly above +1. So what we have here? Global warming? Nope. Just a softer winter, which is replaced the cold winter.

[edit on 9-1-2010 by Sharrow]

Originally posted by neo5842
this is the thing with you AGW religious types, you insist on showing as evidence the same charts and graphs as shown by the IPCC, when it has been shown that there is nothing factual about anything they have shown, in fact most of it has been debunked by real scientists showing its all a huge scam, and a fraud...

Okie doke. Whatever you say. It's funny that people criticise me for taking no crap and going for the nads, but it makes absolutely no difference how this is approached.

Deniers are deniers. Deceptive irrational ideologically-motivated incompetents.

You ask where i get my charts from, i don't think i need to say, because the evidence is everywhere, but if you need to know check the link at the bottom of my post it has everything you need to know which will tell you the truth. People need to stop following the MSM and do the work for themselves, as some in this thread already have, don't be lied to any more.

Of course, you don't need to say, lol.

So you send me to the ramblings of free-market ideologues like Monckton.

The emails and OTHER information does show evidence of fraudulent activities, not just in the emails, but also in the data used for the fake models, they used to convince the none scientists which form the consensus of the IPCC. Now would you deny that they are no all scientist? or like the IPCC insist that they are all scientists, because there is also plenty of evidence to show they are not.

I've absolutely no idea what half that inane babbling means.

You can believe whatever you like, dude. But the facts remain. No evidence of scientific fraud, just a good example of how low deniers will go to keep a donkey in the race.

Funny, this all started from my providing the evidence that Nixie mentioned. It's perhaps a bit like arguing with a monkey - they just throw any old crap about.

Woah man, still throwing up IPCC charts as if they havent been proven to be part of the largest fraud in scientific history? Really? Seriously?

And then you have the gaul to call US deniers?

Lotta stones, my fanatical friend. And not between your legs, either.

Yeah, I'm sure the more such falsehoods are repeated the more it makes them true.

Makes absolute sense.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by nixie_nox

It is winter. Your gonna get snow. One cold winter doesn't negate anything and it is pretty silly and uneducated to imply so.

lol, the same old response... i guess the fact that your iols were caught in their scam counts for nothing...and that we have been experiencing some serious winters around the world when CO2 is supposed to cause EXTREME HEAT.....

What idols and what scams? Serious winters? I think this is the first one in quite some time. And it is not around the world, only North America and Europe. BTW, the southern hemisphere is in summer now. And our record cold is following record heat in Texas and Australia. And the southern hemisphere is experiencing above normal heat.

As for CO2 causing extreme heat, define extreme. And why there is crazy weather has been explained a hundred times, I am not doing it again.

BTW, in the history of the Earth 130 years of data, much of which is questionable because of heat island effect, and other facts such as the fact that GCMs have been proven to be wrong yet people like you claim this shows CO2 is the cause is "silly and uneducated to imply so".... More so when the predictions of the AGW have been wrong....

As for the data, there is more then one way to measure data then a weather instrument. Sediment, tree rings, ice samples, and the beryllium measurements that the article mentioned are all different ways to measure data.

If you can accept the data for hundreds of years about the sun's activity, you can accept the data(which is the same science, about what the weather is for the same time periods. You can't pick and choose which science you want to believe.

The heat island effect? Which is a man made phenomenon right? So how could the ENTIRE planet be launched into the coldest winter ever with the heat island effect?
What is silly to imply is that a small few portions of the country being cold during winter somehow negates GW is what is silly and uneducated.
If people have trouble undestanding that, well I rest my case.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
We have had a solar minimum going on for quite some time. Yet there was record breaking heat all over the planet in 2005.

This is something people like you can't understand... 2005 was an El Nino year...which causes much warming....and the Sun's activity started to tropd to a crawl at the end of 2005/beginning of 2006, which is the same time that temperatures dropped globally.... then scientists found some other interesting facts....

El nino occurs every 3-5 years on average, yet there has never been a problem before. And it wasn't as strong as other times. In fact, GW can make el nino worse.
Solar activity has been dropping steadily since 2000.
We are having another el nino year right now.
And I will take the bait, what interesting facts?

But of course people like you like to ignore such facts... or other facts such as the fact that it was found out that the entire Solar System has moved into a new region of space that affects the climate of every planet, na dit is probably the reasons for the Sun's activity dropping... But again, i am sure you are bored and would rather keep sending money to Al Gore and his minions just to believe "you will save the Earth by giving them money"....

That is just plain silly. The solar system, and galaxy are always moving. So we are always in a new region of space. That is just grasping at straws.

And what money? I have never sent money to anyone. Why would I be sending money to anyone?

Bitter much?

reply to post by treesdancing

I'm somewhat amazed that there is so much debate about this topic on ATS.

I'm not. There's too much money at stake.

I have personally noticed that Global Warming threads on ATS tend to come in waves... there will normally be a few weeks of nothing much on the subject, followed by a week or two of multiple threads. Since ATS is driven by the news, that means that there should be a similar pattern in the news, and there is.

You have to remember that Global Warming is not a purely scientific debate; it is also a political debate. It is a theory, based on a few observations and some now-questionable computer models that is being exploited by the elite for monetary gain. There are allegations that this monetary gain has led to fraud among the scientists themselves, and no real evidence against that. Since the announcement of the recent Copenhagen Conference, however, there seems to have been an awakening of the masses (at least on ATS) as to the real dangers involved with the proposed Cap & Trade scam.

It is a sad aspect of society that we tend as a population to forget things very quickly. That tendency has been used throughout history to make political change. If the first push doesn't work, take what you can get and let it rest for a while before making another push. Eventually, public opinion will shift, slowly, to accept the changes being pushed.

This has a name: incrementalism.

Not this time. This time, the changes are too heinous. This time, I for one will keep the debate alive. I will not stop explaining that the CRU e-mails are evidence of collusion at best and that no transparent investigation is forthcoming. I will not stop explaining that CO2 is an inert, harmless gas. I will not stop explaining that the temperature curves show a cyclical activity instead of a linear progression. I will not stop harping on the wasteful practices of those who would have the rest of us do without. I will not stop telling about how CO2 is beneficial to plant life, and the very foundation of the life cycle. I will not stop challenging the reports that the IPCC and the CRU will doubtless continue to print. Though I be the last, though I be alone, though I be ridiculed and scoffed at, I will continue.

This is a final battle for not just freedom, but for science as well. The agenda behind Global Warming is no less than an attempt to re-create science to say what the elite want it to say. The plan is a return to the Dark Ages of ignorance and serfdom.

There are those on this forum, in this very thread, who either cannot understand or cannot accept that they have already discredited everything they say on this subject from now on. The battle is won, if only we do not allow a retreat and a regroup. I for one will fight on, endlessly if need be.

There is little in this life I love more than freedom and science. This time, there will be no next time.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by expat2368
Reply to post by Nixie_Nox:
"By the way, sunspots block radiation. So if "radiation" actually heated the planet and caused GW, then lack of sunspots would mean that we would be getting pretty hot, not cold."




The radiation the sunspots help to block is in the form of cosmic rays which is gamma radiation it is not radiation that heats the atmosphere. It is Exactly the same type of radiation as from an X-ray tube. Cosmic rays are hitting the Earth now at 20-30% higher density than when the Sunspots were protecting us from them. Cosmic rays interact with water vapor in the atmosphere to form clouds. They also provide energy for lightning. The increased cloud cover reflects the Sun's heat back into space thus cooling the Earth and the clouds result in increased rainfall. There is already talk of how bad 2009 harvests were in the U.S. as a result of too much rain and that is only after 2 years of very few Sunspots.

Thank you for that. At least you seem to understand science a little more then trying to wield it like a weapon you have never used before.

Rays are mostly made up of particles, or protons. yes it is thought that yes they form cloud cover and make the Earth cooler. But studies have shown that even if these rays could increase cloud cover,which is doubted by many in itself, that it would be like 3%, which isn't enough to affect climate.

The Sun is still quiet, very few Sunspots and if it continues as it is I am totally convinced we will within the next 2 summers have a summer with no summer in the Northern Hemisphere, massive crop failures and a global food panic.

Remember, the southern hemisphere is still in summer and they are having above normal summer temperatures. You can't just go by one local.

Our cold winter could be caused by el nino. And I think it is supposed to go away this summer.

There haven't been sunspots, neither northern lights. I'd give a point to sunspot theory.

If the spotless sun indicates for less activity in it, it might explain the absence of northern lights also. In past winters when there (well erm here) has been cold nights with clear skies, the northern lights have been an usual phenomena, but not for last couple of winters.

-v

[edit on 9-1-2010 by v01i0]

I have posted this before, but i think it goes some way to explaining the connection between clouds, cosmic rays and the suns activity, and although it is only a theory, so is AGW a theory.

this is part 1 or 6

what i dont understand is if this co2 crap keeps heat in so well why arent we trying to figure out how to make insulation from it and use it to stay warm and "save energy" , then we can stay warm and save the planet at the same time and everyone will be happy and no global carbon taxation needed. I mean after all the science is supposedly settled right under my snow drifts outside . why arent we bottling this stuff and slapping it on our houses to keep warm during our "little cold spell" we have going on . It's just a thought but im cold now , so prove the co2 thing with something i can use and make me a snow parka with it.

I also wanted to add this video to this thread, because whether you have any faith in Lord Christopher Monkten or not, he dose know what he is talking about.

Well from someone living in the southern hemisphere, Sydney Australia, I can tell you we have had the coolest summer / xmas I can remember.

Sydney was almost cold by usual standards and rainy over Christmas. I can't remember the last time it was like this. It's always stinking hot over this holiday period.

Where are you getting your info from ?

Originally posted by nixie_nox

Remember, the southern hemisphere is still in summer and they are having above normal summer temperatures. You can't just go by one local.

So what's going on here, I wonder? This is a proxy temperature record derived from Greenland ice-core data. So far as I know, the validity of this data is not disputed by any, but I could be wrong on that. The article that it comes from includes some good commentary and additional time perspectives on the same data.

Add to that that the entire solar system appears to be warming, the earth's magnetic field is in an unusual state of flux, and the sun is just beginning to emerge from its quietest period in over a century, and it is becoming increasingly difficult (an understatement) for me to rationally attribute any significant portion of current earth changes to human activity.

I do not in any way condone the wanton, wasteful, destructive impulses of humanity. I fell for the "War on CO2", but I'm no longer a "believer" in the ridiculous idea that we are the enemy. This whole thing is so obviously just another device of the negatively oriented interests on this planet, being employed to further their agenda of domination and enslavement through division. The ongoing rape and torture of the planet will not continue for much longer.

Namaste.

[edit on 10-1-2010 by treesdancing]